Desperate

[harris]

Alabama - I am seeking advice for the process of seeking an opportunity to get back before the Alabama court to question a settlement. I would like to be able to do this without a lawyer because of lack of funds. I believe the facts (math) should speak for themselves. In my divorce which was final approx 17 months ago we reached a settlement out of court, at the urging of my attorney. As the process appears to work, you show up on your court date and then the judge sends you away to try to work it out, basically the lawyers talk back and forth. I did settle at the urging of my attorney but I stated I thought it would be difficult to meet this agreement. I have no issues with the child support, I do question the spousal support. I make approximately 3 times that of the income of my ex-wife. However, we lived a lie, or way outside of our means. In the settlement she got everything that we owned, house, etc, which wasn't a lot. In addition I was ordered to pay child support and alimony. I was also forced to take the vast majority of all debt, except the house and one credit card bill she had. The debt was staggering. Today, based off net income, when I pay her the alimony and child support, I have approximately half the spendable income that she has, in which I then have to live, and pay the debt I was forced to take. The math doesn't add up for me to do this. I feel as if I am being forced to continue to support a lifestyle that was a lie, it was a lifestyle by debt, which must end. She got the house, house equity, house payment, (I was forced to take the equity line debt), all furnishings, etc. I basically walked with a boat that was purchased for use with the family (didn't ask for boat or payment, even offered it to her), and my clothes. I have a good job, she is a school teacher, but I don't have the ability to continue to make these payments to her and meet the debt obligation I received. Her attorney suggested (outside of the courtroom that I consider bankruptcy) this is not an option as ultimately it would cost me my job, they would claim another reason, but the fact is you can't do the job I do and file for bankruptcy. We get along as good as any divorced couple could expect, the children are always put first and we have no visitation issues to speak off. I spend time frequently during the week and weekends with my children. That part she has been fair about.

I just need a place to start and advice on how to start a review process. Am I wasting my time? Will it ultimately cost me more? I can't hire an attorney. Help if you can.

[Dogmatique]

I believe the facts (math) should speak for themselves. In my divorce which was final approx 17 months ago we reached a settlement out of court, at the urging of my attorney. I make approximately 3 times that of the income of my ex-wife. However, we lived a lie, or way outside of our means

But you still did agree to it.

. In the settlement she got everything that we owned, house, etc, which wasn't a lot. In addition I was ordered to pay child support and alimony.

You would generally be paying CS regardless. For how long were you married?

I was also forced to take the vast majority of all debt, except the house and one credit card bill she had. The debt was staggering.

But you still agreed to this. It's difficult to argue that you were forced to do anything.

I feel as if I am being forced to continue to support a lifestyle that was a lie, it was a lifestyle by debt, which must end. She got the house, house equity, house payment, (I was forced to take the equity line debt), all furnishings, etc. I basically walked with a boat that was purchased for use with the family (didn't ask for boat or payment, even offered it to her), and my clothes.

I just need a place to start and advice on how to start a review process. Am I wasting my time? Will it ultimately cost me more? I can't hire an attorney. Help if you can.

Bankruptcy would certainly free up funds so you could continue paying the child support and alimony etc., though neither CS nor alimony can be discharged in a bk filing.


You still make three times your wife's salary, yes? Was the agreement for lifetime alimony, or for a set period? Was there anything in the agreement about alimony being modifiable?

Ideally the time to challenge this was before it was agreed upon - but that doesn't necessarily mean you have no recourse, though it might be more difficult if there has been no change of circumstance since the agreement was made.

[LdiJ]

Originally Posted by harris

Alabama - I am seeking advice for the process of seeking an opportunity to get back before the Alabama court to question a settlement. I would like to be able to do this without a lawyer because of lack of funds. I believe the facts (math) should speak for themselves. In my divorce which was final approx 17 months ago we reached a settlement out of court, at the urging of my attorney. As the process appears to work, you show up on your court date and then the judge sends you away to try to work it out, basically the lawyers talk back and forth. I did settle at the urging of my attorney but I stated I thought it would be difficult to meet this agreement. I have no issues with the child support, I do question the spousal support. I make approximately 3 times that of the income of my ex-wife. However, we lived a lie, or way outside of our means. In the settlement she got everything that we owned, house, etc, which wasn't a lot. In addition I was ordered to pay child support and alimony. I was also forced to take the vast majority of all debt, except the house and one credit card bill she had. The debt was staggering. Today, based off net income, when I pay her the alimony and child support, I have approximately half the spendable income that she has, in which I then have to live, and pay the debt I was forced to take. The math doesn't add up for me to do this. I feel as if I am being forced to continue to support a lifestyle that was a lie, it was a lifestyle by debt, which must end. She got the house, house equity, house payment, (I was forced to take the equity line debt), all furnishings, etc. I basically walked with a boat that was purchased for use with the family (didn't ask for boat or payment, even offered it to her), and my clothes. I have a good job, she is a school teacher, but I don't have the ability to continue to make these payments to her and meet the debt obligation I received. Her attorney suggested (outside of the courtroom that I consider bankruptcy) this is not an option as ultimately it would cost me my job, they would claim another reason, but the fact is you can't do the job I do and file for bankruptcy. We get along as good as any divorced couple could expect, the children are always put first and we have no visitation issues to speak off. I spend time frequently during the week and weekends with my children. That part she has been fair about.

I just need a place to start and advice on how to start a review process. Am I wasting my time? Will it ultimately cost me more? I can't hire an attorney. Help if you can.

Does your agreement state that alimony is modifiable? If not, you have a much harder row to hoe.

For how long did you agree to pay alimony?

No one can really advise you well without knowing the numbers, however I suspect that you got to keep a 401k or some other significant asset in the overall exchange, and if you are able to reopen the property settlement, that asset will be back on the table.

[harris]

First, thanks for the replies - there appears to be no language that says either way about the ability to modify the agreement. The alimony was set for 3 years and after the child support would go up in an amount equal to half of the alimony payment. We were married for 18 years. Her retirement is in place, we had used most all of mine in an attempt to pay down some debt. one factor that is important, but not much use in court is that she stands to inherit a large sum in due time, and has family in place that could help her if she truly couldn't make it. of course, I realize they have no obligation to do this (but would), and there are no guarantees about inheritance, though it will be there. I did agree, though the argument took place between me and my lawyer because I never was with her lawyer, nor the judge. I wouldn't argue that I was forced, my arguement would be that you can't get blood from a turnip. If the math doesn't add up, what do you do. I have just about exhausted every means of money outside of normal wages. as for the comments about bankruptcy, yes it would relieve the other debt, but I spoke this this in my original post, it truly is not an option. With no job I would be able to pay anything. I realize a company can't fire you over this, but I have discussed with some people in the know and have been assurred this is not a viable option, they would release you under some other claim. I have no issues with paying the child support or the private school tution, which I do both. My issue is the amount that I pay on alimony. I wonder if I could argue to stretch the alimony out for a longer period of time and pay a lesser amount each month? As to me making 3 times what she does, this is true, but a bit of a non-issue if the bills I was stuck with still are larger than the revenue stream. we over spent, it was a mutual mistake. I question how the "law" can force you to pay bills and continue to support a lifestyle that was a lie?? in the end it simply isn't possible. If I did file bk and lose my job, then where would we all be in this situation. I've tried talking to her about it, but the reply is, "it's my problem, not her's"

[Dogmatique]

Originally Posted by harris

I question how the "law" can force you to pay bills and continue to support a lifestyle that was a lie?? in the end it simply isn't possible. If I did file bk and lose my job, then where would we all be in this situation. I've tried talking to her about it, but the reply is, "it's my problem, not her's"

The problem is that you agreed to this; the law is there to enforce that agreement should it become necessary and it is reasonable to assume that you were ok with this at the time.

You really do need to invest in speaking with attorney about this; does your agreement actually say that the alimony is payable only for three years then may be modified or readdressed? This is really something that needs to be brought to an attorney who will review your original agreement and advise you from there - it really is your best bet.

The other problem appears to be that your circumstances haven't changed and according to at least one site I found,

Once ordered, it can be modified only upon a showing of a "change in circumstances."

(from [url=http://research.lawyers.com/Alabama/Divorce-in-Alabama.html]Divorce in Alabama[/url] )

If it's become a matter that despite the same circumstances you are now unable to pay the bills I'm not sure that would even be considered a COC.

You really do need to speak with an attorney - it will be worth it.

[SIN EATER]

Sounds as though your agreement included a clause which stated when ss ended, c/s would increase ?????

Shouldn't be enforceable. SS & CS are calculated separately (did they decrease c/s during the period ss was to be paid ? this is often done, as ss is tax deductible & cs isn't) ...
Check your Family Code regarding the acceptable reasons for modification of c/s.

[Dogmatique]

OK, the Code Of Alabama is here: [url=http://www.legislature.state.al.us/CodeofAlabama/1975/coatoc.htm]Code Of Alabama[/url]

You want Title 30, Chapter 2 which pertains to Alimony.

I still think you absolutely NEED to speak with an attorney about this, but reading the technicalities can't hurt either for your own knowledge, you know?

ETA: And for CS guidance: [url]http://www.fa-ir.org/alabama/cs/Rule32.htm[/url]

[url]http://www.alacourt.gov/ChildSupportInfo.aspx[/url]

[harris]

ok - here is an attempt at all the facts. let me say up front that my ex is not a bad person, we get along fine and do put the children first. she's a good person and often I wonder why we ever got divorced, but we did and now too much water is under the bridge to fix. i share this only because some of the post I have read in an attempt to maybe pick up on something, they seem more like spouce bashing than seeking help.

we were married 18 years, have two children 11 & 13 - her salary is $45K, mine is $119K - bottomline is we lived above our means - both of our faults. the only assets we had in the marriage at the time of the divorce was her retirement account - approx $25K - my retirement account - approx $16K - there was debt totaling approx $145K, outside of the mortgage. The house had approx: $60K of equity - she got the house, house payment, and all furnishings, and her retirement and one credit card obligation in her name totaling approx $18K

I got my retirement account, which I used to pay my attorney - I took the equity credit line on the house of $15K, even though I had to sign the house over to her. I took all the debt other than the $18K she took. I also was ordered (agreed outside of the judge) to pay $1000 mo child support - $1000 mo alimony for 3 years - at the end of 3 years the child support rolls to $1500 mo. I have to pay half of the private school tution for kids, half of all medical, have to maintain membership at country club for benefit of children, have to pay all college expense - have to maintain life insurance payable to children - have to pay all cheerleading expense related to daughters cheer camps, etc -

bottomline is when I take my takehome pay and subtract the above payments to her and related child expense and then attempt to pay all of my obligations as outlined above I currently come up $400 per month in the whole, every single month, this is before I ever by any personal food, gas, hygene needs, ext, this is strictly math for current fixed debt obligations. hopefully now you understand why I can't go hire an attorney, I can't pay them.

I want to take care of my children. I do. we have no real issues related to me seeing them. I travel a lot with my job and living with their mother is best for them. she is a good mother. i can see them anytime I want and I do most every weekend and at least once during the week. I've never missed a function of theirs. I have during the course of the last 17 months paid for items in addition to what I am required to pay, like dancing for daughter, gymnastics, etc. if I don't she tells them she can't afford it now?? I don't want this to affect the kids anymore than it has to. those additions haven't amounted to enough to be considered a root problem.

divorce is tough and it should be tough for both. divorce equals change yet it hasn't changed a lot for her financially - though I am sure it has been tough emotionally. my take home pay averages $6,400 month - I provide almost $2,800 per month to her for expense listed above, then I have to use the balance to pay obligations. If I could just get the alimony dropped or reduced drastically, even if I have to pay it for a longer period of time, but I can't go in the hole any further because I don't have other avenues to gather funds.

please don't suggest bankruptcy - i know for a fact it would cost me my job.

help if you can.

[harris]

one other thing - I am hoping to gain enough advice on my options and how I might bring this before the court for review without an attorney. can I not do this myself. I don't have any info except the facts and math

[LdiJ]

Originally Posted by harris

ok - here is an attempt at all the facts. let me say up front that my ex is not a bad person, we get along fine and do put the children first. she's a good person and often I wonder why we ever got divorced, but we did and now too much water is under the bridge to fix. i share this only because some of the post I have read in an attempt to maybe pick up on something, they seem more like spouce bashing than seeking help.

we were married 18 years, have two children 11 & 13 - her salary is $45K, mine is $119K - bottomline is we lived above our means - both of our faults. the only assets we had in the marriage at the time of the divorce was her retirement account - approx $25K - my retirement account - approx $16K - there was debt totaling approx $145K, outside of the mortgage. The house had approx: $60K of equity - she got the house, house payment, and all furnishings, and her retirement and one credit card obligation in her name totaling approx $18K

I got my retirement account, which I used to pay my attorney - I took the equity credit line on the house of $15K, even though I had to sign the house over to her. I took all the debt other than the $18K she took. I also was ordered (agreed outside of the judge) to pay $1000 mo child support - $1000 mo alimony for 3 years - at the end of 3 years the child support rolls to $1500 mo. I have to pay half of the private school tution for kids, half of all medical, have to maintain membership at country club for benefit of children, have to pay all college expense - have to maintain life insurance payable to children - have to pay all cheerleading expense related to daughters cheer camps, etc -

bottomline is when I take my takehome pay and subtract the above payments to her and related child expense and then attempt to pay all of my obligations as outlined above I currently come up $400 per month in the whole, every single month, this is before I ever by any personal food, gas, hygene needs, ext, this is strictly math for current fixed debt obligations. hopefully now you understand why I can't go hire an attorney, I can't pay them.

I want to take care of my children. I do. we have no real issues related to me seeing them. I travel a lot with my job and living with their mother is best for them. she is a good mother. i can see them anytime I want and I do most every weekend and at least once during the week. I've never missed a function of theirs. I have during the course of the last 17 months paid for items in addition to what I am required to pay, like dancing for daughter, gymnastics, etc. if I don't she tells them she can't afford it now?? I don't want this to affect the kids anymore than it has to. those additions haven't amounted to enough to be considered a root problem.

divorce is tough and it should be tough for both. divorce equals change yet it hasn't changed a lot for her financially - though I am sure it has been tough emotionally. my take home pay averages $6,400 month - I provide almost $2,800 per month to her for expense listed above, then I have to use the balance to pay obligations. If I could just get the alimony dropped or reduced drastically, even if I have to pay it for a longer period of time, but I can't go in the hole any further because I don't have other avenues to gather funds.

please don't suggest bankruptcy - i know for a fact it would cost me my job.

help if you can.

You are current paying less than the guideline child support. Guideline child support is close to 1500.00, which is probably why child support goes to 1500.00 if your alimony ends.

Since alimony is tax deductible to her and taxable income to you, right now your actual out of pocket costs for the alimony is about 650.00 if you take both federal and state income tax into effect. That's a total of 1650.00.

If alimony ends and child support goes to guidelines or even higher (and yes, child support is modifiable despite what your agreement states) then your actual savings are going to be very minimal, or not at all.

In combined alimony and child support you are paying paying approximately 21% of your gross income. That is considerably less than the 23-25% average of gross income in child support for two children that most people pay.

I agree that you have problems, but blaming those problems on alimony isn't putting the blame where it really belongs. The blame belongs to the debt.

You need to cut your budget elsewhere. If you are contributing to a 401k you may want to stop temporarily until you can get the debt under control. You may want to check in re-arranging the debt in some way to make it more manageable as well.

You also may need to cut out some of the extras for the children, or consider public school. There is also probably some downsizing that you can do in your current living arrangements as well.

I understand your frustration, but your problem is the debt, not the alimony and child support.

I also agree that bankruptcy isn't realistic for you as well. Not just because of your job either. Bankruptcy would get you in trouble with the family court judge. The creditors are not a party to your divorce agreement, so if you declare bankruptcy on any debt in both names, particularly the equity credit line connected to the house, the creditors will go after your ex for that debt, and are legally entitled to do so.

[Dogmatique]

Originally Posted by harris

one other thing - I am hoping to gain enough advice on my options and how I might bring this before the court for review without an attorney. can I not do this myself. I don't have any info except the facts and math

In all honesty, no - you need to consult with an attorney. It's not even clear at this point whether you CAN bring it to court.

As LdiJ said in her great post, from your math it's not so much the alimony that's presenting the problem - you really need to find areas where you can cut back.

But essentially, only an attorney is going to know whether or not your agreement will be modifiable or even enforceable.

[harris]

I know I must sound like I am repeating myself? I agree that the main issue is debt. I understand this. However, the debt was present at the time of the divorce. Public school was not a given option, it was part of the settlement, and is actually only a small part of the overall out going monthly epxpense. I guess my question is when you enter into to court you have income and you have debt. In knowing and being able to see that the debt is already in place and takes up the vast majority of the disposable income how does the court see fit to add (or how would the court uphold) additional expenses when there is no additional income? I don't disagree that the amount being requested to pay would not be an issue if the debt were not in place, but it is and it is debt that mainly she shared in, though because it is in my name too the argument on their part was I had to know about it, which in most cases I did. I'm just not sure how you can be made to pay an amount greater than your income total is? that was my point to the math. there is no extra for the children that is not listed in the divorce decree, .ie. my continuation of the country club, which again is a small portion of the overall. if I am being forced to use retirement funds then why would it not be considered fair that "both" be required to use those type funds? I was able to restructure a large part of the debt through a consolidation loan, but the payment is still there and it didn't come out to produce an otu flow of funds less than the overall intake.

I'm not arguing, just questioning. in the end how could a court order a payment greater than the income? this is not new debt, it is debt created within the marriage.

[LdiJ]

Originally Posted by harris

I know I must sound like I am repeating myself? I agree that the main issue is debt. I understand this. However, the debt was present at the time of the divorce. Public school was not a given option, it was part of the settlement, and is actually only a small part of the overall out going monthly epxpense. I guess my question is when you enter into to court you have income and you have debt. In knowing and being able to see that the debt is already in place and takes up the vast majority of the disposable income how does the court see fit to add (or how would the court uphold) additional expenses when there is no additional income? I don't disagree that the amount being requested to pay would not be an issue if the debt were not in place, but it is and it is debt that mainly she shared in, though because it is in my name too the argument on their part was I had to know about it, which in most cases I did. I'm just not sure how you can be made to pay an amount greater than your income total is? that was my point to the math. there is no extra for the children that is not listed in the divorce decree, .ie. my continuation of the country club, which again is a small portion of the overall. if I am being forced to use retirement funds then why would it not be considered fair that "both" be required to use those type funds? I was able to restructure a large part of the debt through a consolidation loan, but the payment is still there and it didn't come out to produce an otu flow of funds less than the overall intake.

I'm not arguing, just questioning. in the end how could a court order a payment greater than the income? this is not new debt, it is debt created within the marriage.

The court didn't order it...you AGREED to it. That makes it enforceable.

However, again, you would very likely have ended up with just as much child support as you have child support and alimony combined now, at least on a net basis, if a judge had made an order.

Again, your issue is the debt...and quite frankly, your ex doesn't have the means to handle it, which means that it likely would have ended back on your shoulders, with your credit destroyed in the meantime, even if the judge had divided it equally.

[Dogmatique]

Originally Posted by harris

I know I must sound like I am repeating myself? I agree that the main issue is debt. I understand this. However, the debt was present at the time of the divorce. Public school was not a given option, it was part of the settlement, and is actually only a small part of the overall out going monthly epxpense. I guess my question is when you enter into to court you have income and you have debt. In knowing and being able to see that the debt is already in place and takes up the vast majority of the disposable income how does the court see fit to add (or how would the court uphold) additional expenses when there is no additional income? I don't disagree that the amount being requested to pay would not be an issue if the debt were not in place, but it is and it is debt that mainly she shared in, though because it is in my name too the argument on their part was I had to know about it, which in most cases I did. I'm just not sure how you can be made to pay an amount greater than your income total is? that was my point to the math. there is no extra for the children that is not listed in the divorce decree, .ie. my continuation of the country club, which again is a small portion of the overall. if I am being forced to use retirement funds then why would it not be considered fair that "both" be required to use those type funds? I was able to restructure a large part of the debt through a consolidation loan, but the payment is still there and it didn't come out to produce an otu flow of funds less than the overall intake.

I'm not arguing, just questioning. in the end how could a court order a payment greater than the income? this is not new debt, it is debt created within the marriage.

Because the court is not going to act as an accountant or offer either of you financial advice; by agreeing to the terms you've basically said "I'll take on X amount of debt and deal with it myself" - for all they know, you could have arranged to sell items A, B & C afterward to wipe some of that debt, or take a second job, or arrange any number of alternatives to help you with the burden. You could have been laid off afterwards or may have been expecting a windfall or inheritance that the court may not have known about; it's just not feasible to expect the court to oversee the financial decisions of two petitioners, you know?

As far as the court is concerned the time to object - specially since you did have an attorney - was before you signed the agreement.

It's not that anyone is unsympathetic to your plight, but the simple bottom line here is that you did agree to these terms.

ETA: and what LdiJ said

[harris]

ok - looks like I have no way out of this mess via an appeal to the court for a review?? Everyone is correct, I did agree, at the urging of my attorney. The court was aware that no windfall or inheritance was inline, this all had to be disclosed upfront. its just a mess and I'll try to figure out some way to deal with it. not sure how. getting a second job sounds like a plan, but you'd have to understand my first job. I travel all over the SE, so a second job is not as easy as it sounds, I'm never in one spot more than a day. to date my credit is fine, just loaded. I've missed not debt payments or alimony & child support. Not paying is not my style. I personally don't agree with alimony but that's a different story.