Negotiating spousal support

[ainternational]

I'm currently in the latter stages of a mediated divorce in California. Married 15 years with two children in elementary school. Spouse and I are 39 years old. She was a former engineer who stopped working due to stress and depression several years before our first child was born. She has started she is capable of working but sees little incentive given that any income she has will offset spousal support payments at a rate of approx 50 cents to the dollar earned.

We are trying to negotiate spousal support and her expectation is that it will be until she retires (approx 26 years). Since we're in mediation (to save money and preserve our relationship), so we each hold the trump card to go get lawyers and fight when it comes to negotiating any particular term.

I am seeking suggestions on how to negotiate this point, by setting an end date in what I feel is a more manageable timeframe, such as perhaps when the youngest child turns 18 (in 11 years). Or perhaps a few years after that. My own desire is to get closure and a clear footing of when I will be in control of my financial destiny, and to know when I will finally be able to own a home again.

If I simply tell her I'm unwilling to sign up for a lifetime of payments, then negotiations will come to a stand still, or worse, will be protracted and much more costly through divorce attorneys. Not to mention result in the death of our (now somewhat friendly) relationship. I'm trying to come up with defensible logical arguments against "forever".

I am also curious to understand if I am basically signing up for "forever" by leaving the end date simply unspecified, which our mediator told us he sees in about 30-40% of his cases.

What do you think? Thanks for your thoughts and suggestions.

 

[LdiJ]

I'm currently in the latter stages of a mediated divorce in California. Married 15 years with two children in elementary school. Spouse and I are 39 years old. She was a former engineer who stopped working due to stress and depression several years before our first child was born. She has started she is capable of working but sees little incentive given that any income she has will offset spousal support payments at a rate of approx 50 cents to the dollar earned.

We are trying to negotiate spousal support and her expectation is that it will be until she retires (approx 26 years). Since we're in mediation (to save money and preserve our relationship), so we each hold the trump card to go get lawyers and fight when it comes to negotiating any particular term.

I am seeking suggestions on how to negotiate this point, by setting an end date in what I feel is a more manageable timeframe, such as perhaps when the youngest child turns 18 (in 11 years). Or perhaps a few years after that. My own desire is to get closure and a clear footing of when I will be in control of my financial destiny, and to know when I will finally be able to own a home again.

If I simply tell her I'm unwilling to sign up for a lifetime of payments, then negotiations will come to a stand still, or worse, will be protracted and much more costly through divorce attorneys. Not to mention result in the death of our (now somewhat friendly) relationship. I'm trying to come up with defensible logical arguments against "forever".

I am also curious to understand if I am basically signing up for "forever" by leaving the end date simply unspecified, which our mediator told us he sees in about 30-40% of his cases.

What do you think? Thanks for your thoughts and suggestions.

It is very important, for tax purposes, that you do not even hint that alimony is in any way tied to your children. Alimony is tax deductible to you and taxable income to her. Child support is not. The IRS will deny you the alimony deduction if there is any hint that its disguised child support. Make sure that child support and alimony are calculated completely separately and addressed completely separately in your agreement.

You also might point out to your wife that unless she gets back in the workforce and builds up some social security credits and retirement investments she is going to have a bleak retirement. Even if she gets half of any assets that have been accumulated by both of you now, that is not going to go very far if that is all that she ever has for retirement.

 

[Pinkie39]

It is very important, for tax purposes, that you do not even hint that alimony is in any way tied to your children. Alimony is tax deductible to you and taxable income to her. Child support is not. The IRS will deny you the alimony deduction if there is any hint that its disguised child support. Make sure that child support and alimony are calculated completely separately and addressed completely separately in your agreement.

You also might point out to your wife that unless she gets back in the workforce and builds up some social security credits and retirement investments she is going to have a bleak retirement. Even if she gets half of any assets that have been accumulated by both of you now, that is not going to go very far if that is all that she ever has for retirement.

I agree with the Social Security part very much. In my job, I see many seniors who are living on nothing but $733 a month in SSI and food stamps. Sad way to end up living one's senior years.

Although, Mom may end up eventually collecting spousal SS retirement benefits on Dad's record, given that they were married more than 10 years.

 

[Bali Hai]

I'm currently in the latter stages of a mediated divorce in California. Married 15 years with two children in elementary school. Spouse and I are 39 years old. She was a former engineer who stopped working due to stress and depression several years before our first child was born. She has started she is capable of working but sees little incentive given that any income she has will offset spousal support payments at a rate of approx 50 cents to the dollar earned.

We are trying to negotiate spousal support and her expectation is that it will be until she retires (approx 26 years). Since we're in mediation (to save money and preserve our relationship), so we each hold the trump card to go get lawyers and fight when it comes to negotiating any particular term.

I am seeking suggestions on how to negotiate this point, by setting an end date in what I feel is a more manageable timeframe, such as perhaps when the youngest child turns 18 (in 11 years). Or perhaps a few years after that. My own desire is to get closure and a clear footing of when I will be in control of my financial destiny, and to know when I will finally be able to own a home again.

If I simply tell her I'm unwilling to sign up for a lifetime of payments, then negotiations will come to a stand still, or worse, will be protracted and much more costly through divorce attorneys. Not to mention result in the death of our (now somewhat friendly) relationship. I'm trying to come up with defensible logical arguments against "forever".

I am also curious to understand if I am basically signing up for "forever" by leaving the end date simply unspecified, which our mediator told us he sees in about 30-40% of his cases.

What do you think? Thanks for your thoughts and suggestions.

She is an engineer who is stressed and depressed? TOUGH!! Welcome to the real world.

Don't agree to any alimony.

 

[LdiJ]

I agree with the Social Security part very much. In my job, I see many seniors who are living on nothing but $733 a month in SSI and food stamps. Sad way to end up living one's senior years.

Although, Mom may end up eventually collecting spousal SS retirement benefits on Dad's record, given that they were married more than 10 years.

I agree that she may eventually get SS retirement benefits on his record, but that still will not be much. It might be better than SSI and food stamps but not necessarily much more than that.

 

[Bali Hai]

Wife needs to get a JOB. She is an engineer and there is no reason to expect alimony for 26 years while sitting on her ass until she 'retires'. That is unrealistic and asinine.

 

[Astrolink]

I think you would be a fool to not hire an attorney when your spouse, who once was gainfully employed, states she can work again and is not disabled, is asking for 26 years of spousal maintenance from a 15 year marriage at age 39.

 

[CourtClerk]

I think you would be a fool to not hire an attorney when your spouse, who once was gainfully employed, states she can work again and is not disabled, is asking for 26 years of spousal maintenance from a 15 year marriage at age 39.

The reason why she is asking is because CA allows it. 15 years is considered a long term marriage and long term marriages mean that it's quite possible she could collect until she marries or dies. There is no end date. She could come back at any time and ask for it.

 

[Bali Hai]

I understand CA's spousal maintenance statute. Are you saying the OP should not get legal representation?

From the OP: "If I simply tell her I'm unwilling to sign up for a lifetime of payments, then negotiations will come to a stand still," it sounds like his current offer is the worst possible case.

I saw no suggestion from anyone here that the OP should not hire an attorney. The reality is that the CA statutes allow for lifetime alimony in long term marriages. If the engineer wife plays her cards right, she could be granted lifetime alimony.

It is apparent that the OP is looking for a way to deal with the stbx without litigation. I don't see that happening.

 

[Pinkie39]

I saw no suggestion from anyone here that the OP should not hire an attorney. The reality is that the CA statutes allow for lifetime alimony in long term marriages. If the engineer wife plays her cards right, she could be granted lifetime alimony.

It is apparent that the OP is looking for a way to deal with the stbx without litigation. I don't see that happening.

Wow!! That is disturbing! It's not like she's a high school drop out whose only work experience is as a door greeter at Walmart! Lifetime alimony just for asking?!

 

[LdiJ]

Wow!! That is disturbing! It's not like she's a high school drop out whose only work experience is as a door greeter at Walmart! Lifetime alimony just for asking?!

Its not quite that simple. It isn't simply if its asked for, there also has to be some justification for it legally...and the actual amount has to be justified as well.

It sounds like OP's wife has been out of the workforce for at least 10 years or so based on what he has said here (2 children in elementary school and she quit working several years before the first child was born)...it could even be more like 12-13. Even with an engineering degree that is a LONG time to be out of the workforce. She would be lucky to get back in at entry level and might even need to refresh her education.

Therefore legally, on the face of things as CA sees them, there is going to be some justification for alimony. Perhaps even permanent alimony since CA law allows for that in a long term marriage. The real question is "how much"?

I think that perhaps the OP should consider negotiating a stair step plan...with a specific clause in the agreement allowing for the court to retain jurisdiction to modify alimony. The stair steps should not be tied to the children's ages, but rather tied to a realistic expectation of his wife progressing in the workforce.

If he ends up in court over it, a stair step plan would come across as ultimately reasonable...and the wife's desire to avoid work in order to collect alimony forever as ultimately unreasonable.

Of course, whatever stair step plan he suggests has to be based on his income as well...and we have no idea what that is.

Again though I think that realistically he is going to be paying alimony.

 

[OHRoadwarrior]

Don't let yourself get sucked in. She will get a live in boyfriend or girlfriend, possibly remarried and be laughing at you to the grave.

 

[LdiJ]

Don't let yourself get sucked in. She will get a live in boyfriend or girlfriend, possibly remarried and be laughing at you to the grave.

And any an all of that an be addressed in an agreement or court order...even in CA.

 

[Bali Hai]

And any an all of that an be addressed in an agreement or court order...even in CA.

Yep, all it takes is money (in addition to the alimony payment) and a lifetime to prove it.

 

[tuffbrk]

Don't let yourself get sucked in. She will get a live in boyfriend or girlfriend, possibly remarried and be laughing at you to the grave.

Nah. They'll just live with their boy/girl friend, keep their money in separate accounts or cash their checks at a check cashing place, deposit nominal amounts into an account and deal in cash. Then you can't prove co-habitation. Unless the funds can be proven to be co-mingled and clearly illustrate the new boy/girl friend is supporting the ex, you will pay. Even if you prove it - the alimony may be reduced rather than terminated. The bar is set quite high to prove co-habitation and obtain termination.

CA has the Gavron warning which does put the spouse on notice that they need to contribute to their own needs and expenses. I'd recommend trying to convince them to accept limited duration alimony with a definite end date. It would take the immediate pressure off of financial concerns, allow everyone to get used to their new financial circumstances, allow them to find some type of employment or go back to school, etc. before being totally self-reliant. Keep in mind - their last interview could conceivably have been almost 2 decades ago at this point. It is very intimidating for most to re-enter the workforce after a long hiatus. Allow them the time to be appropriately prepared. They're more likely to become self-sufficient and move on if they're given the helping hand they need. From what I've read, the closer to the ten year mark you are, the more likely the alimony term will be about half the length of the marriage. So if you offered say 6 years - they might choose that over fighting in court for potentially another 2 years of alimony. (Unless an attorney convinces her they can get her permanent alimony. Since you're at 15 years, the likelihood of paying for a longer length of time, if not permanent, is definitely a possibility.)

Good luck and let us know how it goes...