Past Due Alimony, Moving and Joint Custody

[GoodDad2012]

What is the name of your state (only U.S. law)? Tennessee

OK. There is a lot to this but I'll be as succinct as possible. My ex and I divorced, July 2006 in Nashville, TN. After nearly a year of wrangling, to get it over with and against the advice of my attorney, I agreed to $1300 in monthly CS (four children) and $1700 for 5 years of rehabilitative alimony. This was about 80% of my income at the time and yes, I lived like a pauper for a while. But I got by.

She had primary custodial residence and cohabitated with her soon-to-become fiance shortly after the divorce. We shared joint custody (about 65/35) and my 2nd son lived with me for 1.5 years until I moved to Portland, OR but I still paid her CS for him even while he lived with me. At the end of 2008, business tanked and the woman I was seeing lived in Portland, OR and I had developed promising business out there. I decided to move out to Portland, OR at the beginning of 2009 and see the kids as often as I could. I did not go to court to change the order but I wrote a letter to the mother (according to the decree) and she was in favor of it. Everyone was. We all needed money!

Still, business was very rough in 2009 and 2010 (as in the rest of the world!) and as I made money I paid what I could towards the CS/AL and I have a myriad bank deposits and WesternUnion receipts sending even $50 a day. The majority of my income was for CS/AL and I was essentially living off of my girlfriend for my own personal expenses. I cut every cost I could and even did without a car for 2 years. Furthermore, I have only been able to afford to see my kids twice since 2009. I'm thankful for texting, Facebook and web cams and so far we're still very close.

I had been advised to seek a legal reduction of payments because of the cohabitation as well as my substantial reduction of income. I didn't because I couldn't afford the attorney fees and the stress and legal threats that my ex would cause me was something I was not wanting to contend with. TRYING to make more money was the best solution long term.

In July 2011, the $1700 alimony was to end but since I'm now behind by about $16,000 in payments, we decided between us to that I would pay $1500 per month until it's paid in full. So that is $666 for the two children in school and the balance for alimony. Busness has been getting better so I was able to make much more than that in the past number of months.

In August 2011, she and and her fiance moved with the last two schooled children to Florida. I was fine with it myself but I don't believe she informed the courts of her move.

So...I have questions about ending the alimony, the state authority and cohabitation. First, do I still need to make up for the past due alimony especially since she has lived with her ex for years now? Or is there precidence I've set because I have paid knowing full well that they were living together? Are either of us in "hot water" for moving? Was I supposed to pay more since I moved and wasn't able to spend my 35% time with the kids? (I'm angry that she didn't offer to lower my payments so that I could afford flights!) Where do we now deal with all of this legality? In Nashville, TN where the divorce was decreed or each in our own states?

I am doing everything I can to see the kids monthly or bi-monthly and I business has been getting much better and I believe I can do this in 2012. Besides getting an attorney, what points can you give me? I'm not out to destroy my ex at all but I would like life to be easier and afford to see my kids and even have them live with me full time. (NOTE: They have written some pretty sad emails to me about wanting to live with me but their mother gets her "act together" whenever she senses the kids are wanting to leave her. And CPS has investigated her twice since the divorce - called by the schools. She never got into trouble since she's a talented liar. She also turned into a drinker and bounces up and down with that. The kids and her fiance have intervened a few times now.)

Thanks for any help in this drama!

 

[mistoffolees]

What is the name of your state (only U.S. law)? Tennessee

OK. There is a lot to this but I'll be as succinct as possible. My ex and I divorced, July 2006 in Nashville, TN. After nearly a year of wrangling, to get it over with and against the advice of my attorney, I agreed to $1300 in monthly CS (four children) and $1700 for 5 years of rehabilitative alimony. This was about 80% of my income at the time and yes, I lived like a pauper for a while. But I got by.

She had primary custodial residence and cohabitated with her soon-to-become fiance shortly after the divorce. We shared joint custody (about 65/35) and my 2nd son lived with me for 1.5 years until I moved to Portland, OR but I still paid her CS for him even while he lived with me. At the end of 2008, business tanked and the woman I was seeing lived in Portland, OR and I had developed promising business out there. I decided to move out to Portland, OR at the beginning of 2009 and see the kids as often as I could. I did not go to court to change the order but I wrote a letter to the mother (according to the decree) and she was in favor of it. Everyone was. We all needed money!

Still, business was very rough in 2009 and 2010 (as in the rest of the world!) and as I made money I paid what I could towards the CS/AL and I have a myriad bank deposits and WesternUnion receipts sending even $50 a day. The majority of my income was for CS/AL and I was essentially living off of my girlfriend for my own personal expenses. I cut every cost I could and even did without a car for 2 years. Furthermore, I have only been able to afford to see my kids twice since 2009. I'm thankful for texting, Facebook and web cams and so far we're still very close.

I had been advised to seek a legal reduction of payments because of the cohabitation as well as my substantial reduction of income. I didn't because I couldn't afford the attorney fees and the stress and legal threats that my ex would cause me was something I was not wanting to contend with. TRYING to make more money was the best solution long term.

In July 2011, the $1700 alimony was to end but since I'm now behind by about $16,000 in payments, we decided between us to that I would pay $1500 per month until it's paid in full. So that is $666 for the two children in school and the balance for alimony. Busness has been getting better so I was able to make much more than that in the past number of months.

In August 2011, she and and her fiance moved with the last two schooled children to Florida. I was fine with it myself but I don't believe she informed the courts of her move.

So...I have questions about ending the alimony, the state authority and cohabitation. First, do I still need to make up for the past due alimony especially since she has lived with her ex for years now? Or is there precidence I've set because I have paid knowing full well that they were living together? Are either of us in "hot water" for moving? Was I supposed to pay more since I moved and wasn't able to spend my 35% time with the kids? (I'm angry that she didn't offer to lower my payments so that I could afford flights!) Where do we now deal with all of this legality? In Nashville, TN where the divorce was decreed or each in our own states?

I am doing everything I can to see the kids monthly or bi-monthly and I business has been getting much better and I believe I can do this in 2012. Besides getting an attorney, what points can you give me? I'm not out to destroy my ex at all but I would like life to be easier and afford to see my kids and even have them live with me full time. (NOTE: They have written some pretty sad emails to me about wanting to live with me but their mother gets her "act together" whenever she senses the kids are wanting to leave her. And CPS has investigated her twice since the divorce - called by the schools. She never got into trouble since she's a talented liar. She also turned into a drinker and bounces up and down with that. The kids and her fiance have intervened a few times now.)

Thanks for any help in this drama!

Regarding the bolded, yes, you have to pay. You had plenty of opportunities to request a change in the court order (not to mention the opportunity to listen to your attorney and not agree to 80% of your income in the first place). Since you never asked for the orders to be changed, the existing order remains in effect.

As for the rest, you're not likely to get a change of custody when CPS has investigated and found no evidence (claiming that she lied is not useful - they deal with liars all the time and are used to it. Besides, if she IS that good a liar, she will convince the judge, anyway, so you'd be wasting your time). You need a great deal more than that in order to justify removing the kids from their current home and moving them several states away.

 

[GoodDad2012]

Thanks for the reply. I agree with your points. My submitting to unpayable amounts has been because ultimately it's less stressful and I love my kids - and really, the alimony filters to them. My ex never would physically harm the kids but she can be quite neglectful and THAT is very hard to convey. And yes, she is that good of a liar or "truth omitter." She suffers from PTSD and Borderline Personality Disorder caused from a bad date rape when she was in highschool. Our marriage was not fun because of that tragedy! She can be a good woman but when she is in "fear mode" - watch out! Because of the mental ghosts, she also never worked the 15 years we were married but I worked at home and made all the money so she's used to not doing much. I simply did NOT want to be married to her anymore and I never wanted any crazy drama with her or her boyfriend/fiance. He's actually a decent enough guy and has been good to her and the kids. I didn't want to rock the boat for sake of my stress and the kids. The craziness that lowering the money amount would cause - was just not worth it overall. It would affect the kids way more than her!

And to be clear, we have joint custody and my daughter is 15 and can choose where she wants to live and my youngest son is now 11 so he's almost there in his choosing ability as well according the TN law. They continue to live with her because she is mom but when they want to live with me full time, the mom just does a good "about face" and is an angel to the kids when they get tired of her drama.

Again, I'm asking all of this above because of the recent move and the 5 years being last July 2011. She hasn't rehabilitated herself and now the fiance doesn't have a good job so things are getting beyond tight for her (she also doesn't still have a job and has had utilities cutoff) and now when I can't pay her all she wants, she gets more threatening. So I wanted to check up on these points because I don't want to have to look over my shoulder at her threats. After all this money and patience, I don't feel it's rehabilitated anything!

Thanks again for your response.

Thanks.

 

[LdiJ]

Thanks for the reply. I agree with your points. My submitting to unpayable amounts has been because ultimately it's less stressful and I love my kids - and really, the alimony filters to them. My ex never would physically harm the kids but she can be quite neglectful and THAT is very hard to convey. And yes, she is that good of a liar or "truth omitter." She suffers from PTSD and Borderline Personality Disorder caused from a bad date rape when she was in highschool. Our marriage was not fun because of that tragedy! She can be a good woman but when she is in "fear mode" - watch out! Because of the mental ghosts, she also never worked the 15 years we were married but I worked at home and made all the money so she's used to not doing much. I simply did NOT want to be married to her anymore and I never wanted any crazy drama with her or her boyfriend/fiance. He's actually a decent enough guy and has been good to her and the kids. I didn't want to rock the boat for sake of my stress and the kids. The craziness that lowering the money amount would cause - was just not worth it overall. It would affect the kids way more than her!

And to be clear, we have joint custody and my daughter is 15 and can choose where she wants to live and my youngest son is now 11 so he's almost there in his choosing ability as well according the TN law. They continue to live with her because she is mom but when they want to live with me full time, the mom just does a good "about face" and is an angel to the kids when they get tired of her drama.

Again, I'm asking all of this above because of the recent move and the 5 years being last July 2011. She hasn't rehabilitated herself and now the fiance doesn't have a good job so things are getting beyond tight for her (she also doesn't still have a job and has had utilities cutoff) and now when I can't pay her all she wants, she gets more threatening. So I wanted to check up on these points because I don't want to have to look over my shoulder at her threats. After all this money and patience, I don't feel it's rehabilitated anything!

Thanks again for your response.

Thanks.

Dad, you need to be aware that TN law is no longer relevant because neither of you live in TN anymore. Florida now has jurisdiction of matters regarding the children because that is the state of their legal residence. I guarantee that FL does not allow children to choose who has custody...at any age. Their wishes might be taken into consideration by a judge as teens, but the judge will make the decision based on best interest. If mom is as good as you say about presenting herself, you are not going to win a custody battle. You have no "change of circumstance".

 

[GoodDad2012]

I am grateful for the replies. So now I understand it to be FL law. Between TN, FL and OR, I wasn't sure! Yes, she is a talented "truth omitter" and I she's a very likable person. If you know anything about Borderline, it's hard to diagnose and usually makes the immediate loved ones feel crazy!

So, it seems like my best plan of action is to simply continue my primary strategy: to make craploads of money! That way I can pay off the alimony and get it behind me, get a little place in FL so I can see the kids each month, be able to afford the kids to come out to the amazing state of OR and continue to do well in business. As the kids grow, they'll understand the truth more and more.

So short term, to keep the stress and drama low - just maintain. By keeping the stress low and making money to afford seeing the kids and making good memories with them, long term I'll win big. Good strategy?

 

[LdiJ]

I am grateful for the replies. So now I understand it to be FL law. Between TN, FL and OR, I wasn't sure! Yes, she is a talented "truth omitter" and I she's a very likable person. If you know anything about Borderline, it's hard to diagnose and usually makes the immediate loved ones feel crazy!

So, it seems like my best plan of action is to simply continue my primary strategy: to make craploads of money! That way I can pay off the alimony and get it behind me, get a little place in FL so I can see the kids each month, be able to afford the kids to come out to the amazing state of OR and continue to do well in business. As the kids grow, they'll understand the truth more and more.

So short term, to keep the stress and drama low - just maintain. By keeping the stress low and making money to afford seeing the kids and making good memories with them, long term I'll win big. Good strategy?

That sounds like an excellent strategy.

 

[GoodDad2012]

Great! Nice to hear from an attorney that isn't saying sue, sue, sue. There are kids involved here and fighting just isn't worth it!!

I am hoping for a little more clues to the question of being behind in my full amounts. At the height of the payments, it was $1300 CS and $1700 Alim. $3000 total is a big chunk of change. Since it was fairly erratic for 2+ years with an average of $2000 being paid monthly, can I still get into trouble? My records would show I was in constant communication with the ex, paid something each month and paid frequently as money came in (I'm freelance). Sometimes I even sent WesternUnion payments multiple days in a row. (It was as money came in and sometimes it was down to the wire.)

So can I still get into trouble for not being able to pay the amounts in full? Or is it impressive enough to show that I did everything I could every month? Including pawning things, walking and riding the bus for over 2 years, and renting single rooms - all just to cut corners anyway I could.

Or is my neck still on the line if she pushed the issue with the law? "He's always behind!"

 

[Isis1]

Great! Nice to hear from an attorney that isn't saying sue, sue, sue. There are kids involved here and fighting just isn't worth it!!

I am hoping for a little more clues to the question of being behind in my full amounts. At the height of the payments, it was $1300 CS and $1700 Alim. $3000 total is a big chunk of change. Since it was fairly erratic for 2+ years with an average of $2000 being paid monthly, can I still get into trouble? My records would show I was in constant communication with the ex, paid something each month and paid frequently as money came in (I'm freelance). Sometimes I even sent WesternUnion payments multiple days in a row. (It was as money came in and sometimes it was down to the wire.)

So can I still get into trouble for not being able to pay the amounts in full? Or is it impressive enough to show that I did everything I could every month? Including pawning things, walking and riding the bus for over 2 years, and renting single rooms - all just to cut corners anyway I could.

Or is my neck still on the line if she pushed the issue with the law? "He's always behind!"

legally, you are not in contempt until a judge says so. and you are not just flat out not paying. so you have that in your favor. if it really was an issue, she should have filed for contempt years ago.

if she came on here and asked about you, i'd tell her she should leave it as is.

 

[LdiJ]

Great! Nice to hear from an attorney that isn't saying sue, sue, sue. There are kids involved here and fighting just isn't worth it!!

I am hoping for a little more clues to the question of being behind in my full amounts. At the height of the payments, it was $1300 CS and $1700 Alim. $3000 total is a big chunk of change. Since it was fairly erratic for 2+ years with an average of $2000 being paid monthly, can I still get into trouble? My records would show I was in constant communication with the ex, paid something each month and paid frequently as money came in (I'm freelance). Sometimes I even sent WesternUnion payments multiple days in a row. (It was as money came in and sometimes it was down to the wire.)

So can I still get into trouble for not being able to pay the amounts in full? Or is it impressive enough to show that I did everything I could every month? Including pawning things, walking and riding the bus for over 2 years, and renting single rooms - all just to cut corners anyway I could.

Or is my neck still on the line if she pushed the issue with the law? "He's always behind!"

I am not an attorney, just an educated layperson.

You cannot get into "trouble" unless your ex takes you to court for contempt, and as long as you are paying the full child support and a healthy amount towards the alimony arrears its unlikely she will do so.

 

[Zigner]

Dad, you need to be aware that TN law is no longer relevant because neither of you live in TN anymore. Florida now has jurisdiction of matters regarding the children because that is the state of their legal residence. I guarantee that FL does not allow children to choose who has custody...at any age. Their wishes might be taken into consideration by a judge as teens, but the judge will make the decision based on best interest. If mom is as good as you say about presenting herself, you are not going to win a custody battle. You have no "change of circumstance".

Until someone goes to court to change things, TN still retains jurisdiction...

 

[LdiJ]

Until someone goes to court to change things, TN still retains jurisdiction...

Technically yes, but as soon as dad attempts to file something in TN, mom is going to get it changed to FL. A TN judge would have no interest in hearing the case when neither party resides in TN. Therefore dad would be wasting his money filing there. He can file to have FL domesticate the order and take it from there.

 

[GoodDad2012]

Thanks! This is a great site! All this advice is really easing questions I've had for years but again - didn't have the retainer to pay. Pay the kids - pay an attorney? Pay the kids - pay an attorney?

When she got testy back in 2009 and 2010, I would just succumb to the common sense I hoped would win out - and so far it has. I'd tell her, "I know I'm behind. Really? I'm doing all I can and my records would show that even down to the McDonalds dollar menu! Fine, sue me. Take me to court. If I went to jail for a while it would be a vacation compared to how I've been living. And if working my tail off and giving most of my income to my kids and ex - but still being behind is a crime - then at least I can sleep at night knowing I died trying. But then what are you going to do? How would you live? How would get money while I was in jail?"

Worked so far. I'm glad It sounds like its all still good sense but the legality of it is unsettling when you are at a loss for what the law is and not being able to afford it. There are so many opinions and myths about law.

I'm also glad I'm making better money. Hard work and doing the right thing pays off.

Thanks again everyone! This was very very kind.

 

[mistoffolees]

Dad, you need to be aware that TN law is no longer relevant because neither of you live in TN anymore. Florida now has jurisdiction of matters regarding the children because that is the state of their legal residence. I guarantee that FL does not allow children to choose who has custody...at any age. Their wishes might be taken into consideration by a judge as teens, but the judge will make the decision based on best interest. If mom is as good as you say about presenting herself, you are not going to win a custody battle. You have no "change of circumstance".

Sort of. The bolded part isn't true. TN retains jurisdiction until it is changed. It doesn't matter whether they live in TN any more and it certainly is not going to change simply because they've moved.

Now, it would be fairly easy for Mom to have jurisdiction moved to FL if she wishes, but until that happens, it remains in TN. And I wouldn't just assume that Mom would want to move it - there are times when it makes sense to leave things where they are due to the differences in alimony and child support laws in the different states. Mom would have to decide if it's to her advantage to move it to FL.

 

[Ohiogal]

Dad, you need to be aware that TN law is no longer relevant because neither of you live in TN anymore. Florida now has jurisdiction of matters regarding the children because that is the state of their legal residence. I guarantee that FL does not allow children to choose who has custody...at any age. Their wishes might be taken into consideration by a judge as teens, but the judge will make the decision based on best interest. If mom is as good as you say about presenting herself, you are not going to win a custody battle. You have no "change of circumstance".

FL only has jurisdiction IF the case is transferred to FL. If that has not happened, TN still has jurisdiction.

ETA: Or ditto Misty.

 

[LdiJ]

FL only has jurisdiction IF the case is transferred to FL. If that has not happened, TN still has jurisdiction.

ETA: Or ditto Misty.

Despite the fact that this is an alimony forum, I was responding to a question about dad filing for custody. He made the statement that his daughter was old enough to choose under TN law. He has also make it clear that he doesn't have a lot of disposable cash right now.

Mom could easily get any case regarding the children transferred to FL. Unless mom is incredibly stupid or does not consult an attorney or even this forum, mom WILL do exactly that if dad files in TN. Therefore dad would have wasted legal bucks filing in TN. He could easily get the case domesticated in FL and start out there.