Reopen Divorce?

[MizFit]

What is the name of your state (only U.S. law)? FL

Divorce was final August 2008. I just found out from bank that he opened credit cards in his name only on our joint account. Maybe other cards as well. I have not had/used credit cards in years.

I am not sure how to prove (except I was never authorized on the one account) ... and I need info on the others. They are not appearing on my credit report, so at the moment I have no info on it.

But can I possibly re-open the divorce case and have this heard? My attorney said nothing about it, and I was ordered to pay 1/2 the marital debt, although I have not contributed to it for the past 5 years.

Edited to add: legal separation (actual filing for divorce) was about 18 months ago; actual separation (me moving to a new house) was almost 5 years ago. My access to credit cards ended about 3 years ago. The only use during the time after separation was for agreed-upon purchases for our daughter; I did not use any of his money for myself even several months prior to our separation. Until a year ago, he paid much less than he would have had to pay (maybe 1/3 of regular amount) for the temporary spousal support and child support he WOULD have had to pay if it had gone through the court.

Any advice MUCH appreciated. Thank you all!

MizFit

 

[moburkes]

How do you open a credit card IN YOUR OWN name, but "on" a joint account?

 

[MizFit]

How do you open a credit card IN YOUR OWN name, but "on" a joint account?

I'm sorry, I don't know the answer to this question. We had all joint accounts at a credit union. I took a couple of accounts that I had primarily been using, and he took the others. My car loan is attached to "his" account (which is actually joint).

I was trying to sort out his overdrafts on the joint account (which he is claiming are "marital debt" and wants me to pay half) and also my car loan, which I am responsible for. They can't give me any information about the car loan because I am not on it, even though I am on the checking/savings accounts.

There is a credit card we had jointly on that account years ago. I can get full info on that one. The person helping me told me that there was an additional credit card that had been issued on the account but she could not give me any info on that one because I am not an authorized user, didn't know about it, never used it, etc. I don't even know the balance or anything else.

So I don't know how to answer your question except to say that it is apparently possible.

Thank you.

 

[LdiJ]

I'm sorry, I don't know the answer to this question. We had all joint accounts at a credit union. I took a couple of accounts that I had primarily been using, and he took the others. My car loan is attached to "his" account (which is actually joint).

I was trying to sort out his overdrafts on the joint account (which he is claiming are "marital debt" and wants me to pay half) and also my car loan, which I am responsible for. They can't give me any information about the car loan because I am not on it, even though I am on the checking/savings accounts.

There is a credit card we had jointly on that account years ago. I can get full info on that one. The person helping me told me that there was an additional credit card that had been issued on the account but she could not give me any info on that one because I am not an authorized user, didn't know about it, never used it, etc. I don't even know the balance or anything else.

So I don't know how to answer your question except to say that it is apparently possible.

Thank you.

What I think that you need to do, is tell your ex that if he is demanding that you pay 1/2 of his total debt, calling it marital debt, that you insist that he sit down with you and lay it all out, with credit card statements etc.

Then you tell him that you are not willing to be responsible for 1/2 of anything that occurred since your separation. A judge certainly wouldn't hold you responsible for anything that occurred in the last 18 months, since you filed for divorce.

If he won't agree to treat the debt fairly, then yes, you will need a trip back to court.

 

[Ohiogal]

What I think that you need to do, is tell your ex that if he is demanding that you pay 1/2 of his total debt, calling it marital debt, that you insist that he sit down with you and lay it all out, with credit card statements etc.

Then you tell him that you are not willing to be responsible for 1/2 of anything that occurred since your separation. A judge certainly wouldn't hold you responsible for anything that occurred in the last 18 months, since you filed for divorce.

If he won't agree to treat the debt fairly, then yes, you will need a trip back to court.

A judge already did hold her responsible however. The time to question all this was DURING the divorce.

 

[LdiJ]

A judge already did hold her responsible however. The time to question all this was DURING the divorce.

The judge held her responsible for 1/2 of the marital debt. However, what was or wasn't marital debt was not defined in their divorce agreement. I agree that the time to question it was during the divorce, however, since it was not defined, that doesn't give her ex carte blanc to force her to pay 1/2 of non-marital debt.

Therefore, they have to agree on what is marital debt, and if they can't agree, it needs to go back to court for the judge to decide.

Its going to end up back in court anyway, because he has already stated that he is going to be deducting her half, from his alimony payment to her...which we all know is a no-no.

 

[Ohiogal]

The judge held her responsible for 1/2 of the marital debt. However, what was or wasn't marital debt was not defined in their divorce agreement. I agree that the time to question it was during the divorce, however, since it was not defined, that doesn't give her ex carte blanc to force her to pay 1/2 of non-marital debt.

Therefore, they have to agree on what is marital debt, and if they can't agree, it needs to go back to court for the judge to decide.

Its going to end up back in court anyway, because he has already stated that he is going to be deducting her half, from his alimony payment to her...which we all know is a no-no.

Well actually we don't know that.
OP what EXACTLY word for word from your divorce decree what does it say about the debt.

 

[nextwife]

"Credit Cards" on a joint checking account are CALLED credit cards, and say VISA or Master Card, but they are only really debit cards. They act like a CHECK CARD, in that they say VISA or Mastercard, and can be used as such, but ONLY against funds CURRENTLY in the account. They do not create DEBT. But they are just debit cards. Double check with your bank what these cards are, because it may not be showing up on a CREDIT report because it is not "credit". It's just like writing a check.

 

[MizFit]

"Credit Cards" on a joint checking account are CALLED credit cards, and say VISA or Master Card, but they are only really debit cards. They act like a CHECK CARD, in that they say VISA or Mastercard, and can be used as such, but ONLY against funds CURRENTLY in the account. They do not create DEBT. But they are just debit cards. Double check with your bank what these cards are, because it may not be showing up on a CREDIT report because it is not "credit". It's just like writing a check.

The account may have had debit cards, yes. But the two cards I mention actually ARE credit cards. Lines of credit with an amount cap assigned to those cards that can be used but must be repaid with interest.

One was issued jointly many years ago, with a $5K limit. Another was apparently issued only to him, at his request, sometime in the past few years, and I don't know the limit on that one. The lady at the desk just raised her eyebrows when I asked her, and I am assuming the debt is substantial, compared to the jointly held card.

Thanks. Going to check the papers for the other question.

MizFit

 

[MizFit]

Well actually we don't know that.
OP what EXACTLY word for word from your divorce decree what does it say about the debt.

Paragraph 1 gives the date of the marriage in 1983, and says "and separated in 2003."

Regarding marital debt, the paper says in paragraph 8: "The parties have marital debt, mainly in the form of credit cards and loans. Each party is responsible for one half of the marital debt."

Incidentally, the main debt that I carry is in the form of personal loans from individuals. It *IS* listed on my financial affidavit. These loans were taken for the purpose of retaining an attorney and a small amount was used for living expenses when they were extraordinary and my income was down. I didn't expect him to pay that debt for me, since it was for my attorney and my living expenses. But if need be, perhaps it can offset some of his personal debt?

Thanks all, so much. I only want what's fair.

MizFit

 

[Ohiogal]

Paragraph 1 gives the date of the marriage in 1983, and says "and separated in 2003."

Regarding marital debt, the paper says in paragraph 8: "The parties have marital debt, mainly in the form of credit cards and loans. Each party is responsible for one half of the marital debt."

Incidentally, the main debt that I carry is in the form of personal loans from individuals. It *IS* listed on my financial affidavit. These loans were taken for the purpose of retaining an attorney and a small amount was used for living expenses when they were extraordinary and my income was down. I didn't expect him to pay that debt for me, since it was for my attorney and my living expenses. But if need be, perhaps it can offset some of his personal debt?

Thanks all, so much. I only want what's fair.

MizFit

When do the orders state that the marriage is deemed to have terminated? Not separated but TERMINATED? That will tell you what marital debt is.

 

[LdiJ]

When do the orders state that the marriage is deemed to have terminated? Not separated but TERMINATED? That will tell you what marital debt is.

Complete and total BS

 

[Ohiogal]

Complete and total BS

Umm no. It was phrased poorly but it is NOT complete and total BS. The termination date of the marriage (courts can state that termination of a marriage happened sooner than the actual divorce date for purposes of debt and what not) is important. Because anything that accrued between the start of the marriage and the termination date of the marriage would be marital debt.

And quite frankly OP needs to actually understand what her divorce decree states. It is poorly written. Other factors that go into what the marital debt is include the entire record of what was before the court at the time the decree was made.

 

[LdiJ]

Umm no. It was phrased poorly but it is NOT complete and total BS. The termination date of the marriage (courts can state that termination of a marriage happened sooner than the actual divorce date for purposes of debt and what not) is important. Because anything that accrued between the start of the marriage and the termination date of the marriage would be marital debt.

And quite frankly OP needs to actually understand what her divorce decree states. It is poorly written. Other factors that go into what the marital debt is include the entire record of what was before the court at the time the decree was made.

Sorry...yes, I understand now that it was the wording.

My concern on this whole thing stems from the very first post.

The ex husband intends to go to a credit counselor and set up a plan for ALL of his existing debt. That is how credit counseling plans work. He can't just include the marital debt. He intends to have her pay half of that payment, and he intends to deduct her half of the payment, from the alimony that he was ordered to pay her.

Clearly, there is going to be some debt included in that plan, that will be non-marital debt. The amount of debt that is non-marital debt is unknown at this time. If any of the debt attached to the house is included in the plan, its going to be non-marital if he is keeping the house. Also, there is a cut off point somewhere as to what is marital vs non-marital. It could be the separation date in 2003, since its mentioned in the decree. It could be the date that the divorce was filed, or it could be some other date. I am not debating what that date is, I am simply stating that a cut off date exists.

Yes, its quite true that her decree is poorly written. However, at a minimum, she is entitled to a full accounting of all of the debt that he believes is marital.

I also believe that there is little chance that they won't end up back in court. Quite frankly, based on everything she has described here about his finances, he is a bankruptcy waiting to happen, which means that she may be forced to file bankruptcy as well.

 

[MizFit]

My attorney said at one point that I should just file bankruptcy. I had thought that was unavoidable.

HOWEVER ... at least the majority of the debt that existed when we separated (and I understand that the courts may or may not see it this way, but that was when I stopped contributing to the debt) has either been written off or attached as a lien on the home. I won't ever see any money from the home anyway, unless he lives long enough to pay it all off and I live longer than that, and then there is still the matter of considerable amounts of liens to be deducted. So the house is probably pretty much a wash-out for me.

The largest part of the remainder of the debt is for things he charged over the past 5 years. I don't even have any idea how much this may be. As for myself, I do owe personal, private loans from friends (and intend to pay them) but that is all. I've worked a number of jobs and done without in order to keep from piling up extra debt.

My own credit score is actually pretty good, I am told. I have no idea how that happened and was pleasantly surprised. I took out a department store credit card earlier this year and I use it sparingly and pay it off regularly. I don't have any other lines of credit. I owe a couple of thousand on my car, which will be tight, but I can manage it.

I really would like to avoid filing bankruptcy if I don't have to. I honestly wish I had somehow separated myself from him legally and financially 5 years ago when the marriage ended. I made it through some very rough times without filing bankruptcy, and now that I am slowly putting my life back together, I don't want to waste those 5 years and have to start over.

I suppose there is no way to determine what the courts will consider to be the date of the termination of the marriage without actually taking it back to court ... ? Are there any factors that could weigh heavily in making that determination?

I did get a lease for a rental home when I moved out, but they would not write it in my name only, so he also signed it. However, I think he also filed homestead exemption on his own home. We DID live separately, within 20 miles of each other, all of that time. Also, my name is not included anywhere on at least one major credit card debt of his as well as a mortgage (I'm guessing a second mortgage ... how did he take out a mortgage on a house that was in my name as well without getting my signature? It may have been a refinance also.).

Anyway ... I know this is complicated. I'm really disappointed that my attorney didn't mention any of these things to me or to the court. I'm waiting to see if he will allow me to have his copies of all the financial info, since he has officially ended his representation of me. I'm a little surprised too ... everyone recommended him so highly and said he had done such a great job for them. He really seems knowledgeable. Maybe he just got tired of it dragging on so long (his involvement was almost 2 years, though with very long periods of inactivity as my ex was dragging things out).

Thank you all so much for your input. It seems that I must try to do something. I haven't mentioned so many little things he has done (and is still doing) to try to ruin me financially and otherwise over the years, because it didn't seem relevant. But it's been difficult, and I just want to get out of it as fairly as possible now, if that's possible. I just wish I had known what things needed to be addressed before I went to court. Thank you again.