Spousal support--ball park $ ?

[turner1]

What is the name of your state? Florida

i guess in FL there is no 'formula', so i'm sort of wondering what the opinions are of should my wife receive support, what type, for how long and how much. i have hired an attorney, but only had one meeting with her thus far.

background:
my first marriage, her second
married 13 years
she has one son that i have raised since diapers--age 17, and we have one son age 11
my income $70,000 salary (net 4500 month)
her income $11,000 part time--by choice (net 1100 month)
neither is college graduate (she droped out to have her 1st son, married for a year, and never went back). she was never a 'homemaker' and did not give up a career to better mine. i attended trade school to begin my career before we married. i attended more trade school, after hours, to advance my career. she never supported me. we have always been a two-income family.
reasons for divorce are 'too much stress', stemming from financial unsolvency. we are going broke, on the verge of bankruptcy and have been in jeopardy of foreclosure on our home constantly in the last 2 years.
during our marriage my wife would only work in day care or as a teachers-aide. to the ends of argement she has constantly refused to go back to college or any training to improve our lifestyle and financial solvency. even when faced with foreclosure letters, she refused to seek more gainful employment. with the wolf at the door, she chose to remain unemployed over the summer, until the school year started again. this pretty much ruined us.
we have never 'seperated', and when the marriage finally fell flat just in september of 2007, she found comfort in the arms of another man. this relationship is now a love affair and she makes no attempt to hide that. (of course we are still going bankrupt and he has family money--he is also 10 years older than we are. he was a family friend. he lives in baton rouge). we are still living in the same house--i'm in the spare bedroom, because we cannot afford 2 households.

leaving child support out of the picture (i will be seeking custody with vigor), is she REALLY 'entitled' to support?
i contend that if she wants to just 'go', she should.
with our incomes, what is realistic to expect from support?
she has 'said' she only wants rehabilitative support. is that fair? will it likely be lower and shorter, and therefore a 'better deal' for me in the long run?
at this point, i am looking totally at the weekly/monthly monitary benefits. with our debt and bills the way they are, i live paycheck to paycheck as it is.

aside from $250 an hour for my attorney, i would love any insight on these issues.

turnerWhat is the name of your state?

[Bali Hai]

Originally Posted by turner1

What is the name of your state? Florida

i guess in FL there is no 'formula', so i'm sort of wondering what the opinions are of should my wife receive support, what type, for how long and how much. i have hired an attorney, but only had one meeting with her thus far.

background:
my first marriage, her second

irrelevant.

married 13 years

Not looking good for you.

she has one son that i have raised since diapers--age 17, and we have one son age 11
my income $70,000 salary (net 4500 month)
her income $11,000 part time--by choice (net 1100 month)

Looking worse for you.

neither is college graduate (she droped out to have her 1st son, married for a year, and never went back).

Irrelevant.

she was never a 'homemaker' and did not give up a career to better mine.

Could be mitigating.

i attended trade school to begin my career before we married. i attended more trade school, after hours, to advance my career. she never supported me.

Well the fact that you always supported her is bad for you!

we have always been a two-income family.
reasons for divorce are 'too much stress', stemming from financial unsolvency. we are going broke, on the verge of bankruptcy and have been in jeopardy of foreclosure on our home constantly in the last 2 years.
during our marriage my wife would only work in day care or as a teachers-aide. to the ends of argement she has constantly refused to go back to college or any training to improve our lifestyle and financial solvency. even when faced with foreclosure letters, she refused to seek more gainful employment. with the wolf at the door, she chose to remain unemployed over the summer, until the school year started again. this pretty much ruined us.

That's your fault. You enabled and approved that behavior.

we have never 'seperated', and when the marriage finally fell flat just in september of 2007, she found comfort in the arms of another man.

Lucky you.

this relationship is now a love affair and she makes no attempt to hide that. (of course we are still going bankrupt and he has family money--he is also 10 years older than we are. he was a family friend. he lives in baton rouge). we are still living in the same house--i'm in the spare bedroom, because we cannot afford 2 households.

Ok.

leaving child support out of the picture (i will be seeking custody with vigor), is she REALLY 'entitled' to support?

Whether she is "entitled" to alimony or not has little to do with whether a judge will award it.

i contend that if she wants to just 'go', she should.

You won't be that fortunate, trust me.

with our incomes, what is realistic to expect from support?

$2k per month.

she has 'said' she only wants rehabilitative support. is that fair? will it likely be lower and shorter, and therefore a 'better deal' for me in the long run?

It won't be for life, but it may not be as "low" as you would like.

at this point, i am looking totally at the weekly/monthly monitary benefits. with our debt and bills the way they are, i live paycheck to paycheck as it is.

aside from $250 an hour for my attorney, i would love any insight on these issues.

turnerWhat is the name of your state?

See my insight above.

[LdiJ]

Originally Posted by turner1

What is the name of your state? Florida

i guess in FL there is no 'formula', so i'm sort of wondering what the opinions are of should my wife receive support, what type, for how long and how much. i have hired an attorney, but only had one meeting with her thus far.

background:
my first marriage, her second
married 13 years
she has one son that i have raised since diapers--age 17, and we have one son age 11
my income $70,000 salary (net 4500 month)
her income $11,000 part time--by choice (net 1100 month)
neither is college graduate (she droped out to have her 1st son, married for a year, and never went back). she was never a 'homemaker' and did not give up a career to better mine. i attended trade school to begin my career before we married. i attended more trade school, after hours, to advance my career. she never supported me. we have always been a two-income family.
reasons for divorce are 'too much stress', stemming from financial unsolvency. we are going broke, on the verge of bankruptcy and have been in jeopardy of foreclosure on our home constantly in the last 2 years.
during our marriage my wife would only work in day care or as a teachers-aide. to the ends of argement she has constantly refused to go back to college or any training to improve our lifestyle and financial solvency. even when faced with foreclosure letters, she refused to seek more gainful employment. with the wolf at the door, she chose to remain unemployed over the summer, until the school year started again. this pretty much ruined us.
we have never 'seperated', and when the marriage finally fell flat just in september of 2007, she found comfort in the arms of another man. this relationship is now a love affair and she makes no attempt to hide that. (of course we are still going bankrupt and he has family money--he is also 10 years older than we are. he was a family friend. he lives in baton rouge). we are still living in the same house--i'm in the spare bedroom, because we cannot afford 2 households.

leaving child support out of the picture (i will be seeking custody with vigor), is she REALLY 'entitled' to support?
i contend that if she wants to just 'go', she should.
with our incomes, what is realistic to expect from support?
she has 'said' she only wants rehabilitative support. is that fair? will it likely be lower and shorter, and therefore a 'better deal' for me in the long run?
at this point, i am looking totally at the weekly/monthly monitary benefits. with our debt and bills the way they are, i live paycheck to paycheck as it is.

aside from $250 an hour for my attorney, i would love any insight on these issues.

turnerWhat is the name of your state?

The first thing that the two of you need to do is sell the house, if at all possible, before it forecloses....particularly if it still has equity in today's market. If you can keep a foreclosure off your record, its in your best interest.

Otherwise, you may want to consider a joint chapter 7 bankuptcy before you divorce.

Otherwise, there isn't much else that we can tell you (particularly Bali Hai, sigh) accept that in a worse case scenario alimony equalizes income (taking child support into consideration) for normally a limited amount of time.

[Bali Hai]

Originally Posted by LdiJ

The first thing that the two of you need to do is sell the house, if at all possible, before it forecloses....particularly if it still has equity in today's market. If you can keep a foreclosure off your record, its in your best interest.

Otherwise, you may want to consider a joint chapter 7 bankuptcy before you divorce.

Otherwise, there isn't much else that we can tell you (particularly Bali Hai, sigh) accept that in a worse case scenario alimony equalizes income (taking child support into consideration) for normally a limited amount of time.

Oh mom, what else could I ever do to win your love??

[LdiJ]

Originally Posted by Bali Hai

Oh mom, what else could I ever do to win your love??

Start giving people well researched and legally valid advice, rather than emotional rants based on your own situation.

Seriously, Bali, you give the worst advice of anyone on these forums. The regulars recognize your responses for what they are, and some of them even find them amusing (I even do from time to time) but the people asking the questions have no idea that what you are telling them is mostly BS based on your own bitterness and frustration with the legal system.

[turner1]

obviously im confused--thats why i asked. if i make 4500 and my spouse makes 1200, thats roughly 5700. if she 'gets' 2000, then her monthly would be 3200, and higher than mine which would be 2500. really. i wouldnt think so.

basically, i understand that free advice is worth the price paid, but i was sort of hoping for something a little more in depth. no worries. i appreciate the input nonetheless.

i am trying to research some of the court cases to see what sort of guidelines are out there. i see in some documentation mentioned about using the PA guidelines as a 'template', and a review of some of the cases where our incomes are simular, and our marriage length is near the same (13 years a short term?), i am finding support in the few hundreds up to 600 a month.

if you were fighting for me or against me, what would the arguements be and what would you 'settle' on?

guys/gals, i appreciate the input. honestly.

[Bali Hai]

Originally Posted by turner1

obviously im confused--thats why i asked. if i make 4500 and my spouse makes 1200, thats roughly 5700. if she 'gets' 2000, then her monthly would be 3200, and higher than mine which would be 2500. really. i wouldnt think so.

basically, i understand that free advice is worth the price paid, but i was sort of hoping for something a little more in depth. no worries. i appreciate the input nonetheless.

i am trying to research some of the court cases to see what sort of guidelines are out there. i see in some documentation mentioned about using the PA guidelines as a 'template', and a review of some of the cases where our incomes are simular, and our marriage length is near the same (13 years a short term?), i am finding support in the few hundreds up to 600 a month.

if you were fighting for me or against me, what would the arguements be and what would you 'settle' on?

guys/gals, i appreciate the input. honestly.

YOU 4500x12= $54k annual

Her 1100x12= $13.2k annual

Difference= $40.8k annual

$40.8k/2= $20.4k to equalize earnings

$20.4/12= $1.7k per month.

I rounded up to $2k per month because she did all the housework while you sat on the couch drinking beer and watching football.

[Silverplum]

Originally Posted by Bali Hai

I rounded up to $2k per month because she did all the housework while you sat on the couch drinking beer and watching football.

*spork!*

Poster, the rest of what Bali wrote is perfectly legit. The part I quoted was Pure Bali.

[wileybunch]

Bali, what a turnaround ..... no longer thinking it's a woman's world and women rule the family courts! I'd like to think my badgering you had a hand in this change of heart. Hehe.

[Golfball]

Originally Posted by turner1

basically, i understand that free advice is worth the price paid, but i was sort of hoping for something a little more in depth. no worries. i appreciate the input nonetheless.

The biggest problem with offering "in-depth" advice is that the amount that is awarded is highly variable, between jurisdictions, the different venues in those jurisdictions, and sometimes even the judges on the bench, and actual guidelines where you simply plug in the numbers and turn the crank are few and far between. And even then, the judge usually has wide discretion with the circumstances.

if you were fighting for me or against me, what would the arguements be and what would you 'settle' on?

Well, first thing I'd do would be to figure out my budget as it stands right now. How much you pay for the roof over your head (and all the necessary amenities, like a 12 month average on the power bill), debt service (both separate and marital), food, gas, telecom services (cable, land line, cell phone), and insurance (life, health, property, and casualty) are all important. (Of course, you know your budget better than we do.) Don't forget any funds for child support (both court ordered and when they're in your care), entertainment (all work and no play makes Jack insane.), funds for travel, prior support obligations (if any), etc.

And don't forget other such things as home maintenance, auto maintenance, a small emergency fund, pet food and vet care, etc. That stuff will sneak up on you.

Talk w/ your attorney on where to start with your counteroffer for alimony. You don't want to be insultingly small (although there are times when zero is the appropriate offer (regardless of insult), and times when a zero offer is not insulting, talk w/ your attorney), but you also need room to negotiate (so don't be too generous, either.)

And there's other factors to consider in negotiation. For example, maybe you could get a larger share of the equity from the marital home (or a little less of the marital debt) in exchange for paying a little more alimony? (The alimony is tax deductible to the obligor, and reported as income for the obligee, as long as the alimony agreement/order conforms with the IRS requirements.) It's worth considering, at least. But you're the one with all the numbers, you're the one who has to live with it, not us.

IMNSHO, one of the most important things is to keep the negotiations open. It is (usually) far cheaper to spend the time jawing over the phone or in a conference room than it is to be lambasting each other in court.

[Bali Hai]

Originally Posted by Golfball

The biggest problem with offering "in-depth" advice is that the amount that is awarded is highly variable, between jurisdictions, the different venues in those jurisdictions, and sometimes even the judges on the bench, and actual guidelines where you simply plug in the numbers and turn the crank are few and far between. And even then, the judge usually has wide discretion with the circumstances.



Well, first thing I'd do would be to figure out my budget as it stands right now. How much you pay for the roof over your head (and all the necessary amenities, like a 12 month average on the power bill), debt service (both separate and marital), food, gas, telecom services (cable, land line, cell phone), and insurance (life, health, property, and casualty) are all important. (Of course, you know your budget better than we do.) Don't forget any funds for child support (both court ordered and when they're in your care), entertainment (all work and no play makes Jack insane.), funds for travel, prior support obligations (if any), etc.

And don't forget other such things as home maintenance, auto maintenance, a small emergency fund, pet food and vet care, etc. That stuff will sneak up on you.

Talk w/ your attorney on where to start with your counteroffer for alimony. You don't want to be insultingly small (although there are times when zero is the appropriate offer (regardless of insult), and times when a zero offer is not insulting, talk w/ your attorney), but you also need room to negotiate (so don't be too generous, either.)

And there's other factors to consider in negotiation. For example, maybe you could get a larger share of the equity from the marital home (or a little less of the marital debt) in exchange for paying a little more alimony? (The alimony is tax deductible to the obligor, and reported as income for the obligee, as long as the alimony agreement/order conforms with the IRS requirements.) It's worth considering, at least. But you're the one with all the numbers, you're the one who has to live with it, not us.

IMNSHO, one of the most important things is to keep the negotiations open. It is (usually) far cheaper to spend the time jawing over the phone or in a conference room than it is to be lambasting each other in court.

And in the case you offer it would NOT be deductible.

[Golfball]

Originally Posted by Bali Hai

And in the case you offer it would NOT be deductible.

Depends on how it is phrased, and the other circumstances. The attorney(s) would know how to phrase it such that the IRS won't get its panties in a bunch. (i.e. I seriously doubt that the final order/agreement would say "in lieu of $foo property, $bar alimony will be provided.")

Edit: There's also the assumption that the alimony payments will not fall afoul of the alimony recovery rules, too.

[LdiJ]

Originally Posted by Golfball

Depends on how it is phrased, and the other circumstances. The attorney(s) would know how to phrase it such that the IRS won't get its panties in a bunch. (i.e. I seriously doubt that the final order/agreement would say "in lieu of $foo property, $bar alimony will be provided.")

Edit: There's also the assumption that the alimony payments will not fall afoul of the alimony recovery rules, too.

Ginny we CANNOT count on attorneys or even judges wording it right for tax purposes, way too many of them put things in orders and agreement that are flat out impossible, tax wise.

Figure out what you are agreeing to, and then run it by a tax pro for wording and to be sure that it will fly, tax-wise.

[Golfball]

Originally Posted by LdiJ

Ginny we CANNOT count on attorneys or even judges wording it right for tax purposes, way too many of them put things in orders and agreement that are flat out impossible, tax wise.

Figure out what you are agreeing to, and then run it by a tax pro for wording and to be sure that it will fly, tax-wise.

I ain't Ginny, even though are handles share the same first initial.

I guess I should have said "should" though.

Although a "vanilla" (for lack of a better term) alimony section (something along the lines of "Supporting Spouse is to pay Dependent Spouse $X per month for Y months starting on Z date in certified funds due on the 1st of the month." plus whatever boilerplate is necessary.) wouldn't necessarily be offensive tax-wise, correct?

[tuffbrk]

Would you take a minute to define "alimony recovery rules" referenced in your previous post? Thank you.