Spousal Support during Separation

[Proserpina]

And with all due respect, this is not a forum dedicated to religion and/or faith.

It's about legalities. Please, use the PM feature if you want to continue discussing the religious aspects; they really don't fit into the legal discussion.

[i.m4Truth]

And with all due respect, this is not a forum dedicated to religion and/or faith. It's about legalities.

Agreed. Thanks for the reminder.


Justice, you wrote:

....a divorce initiated by her, is not a good option for her. I too, would like to see them reconcile.

If you will please look at the title of this thread and the first sentence of my initial post you will see that you have misunderstood this whole thread. My desire is to avoid divorce not pursue it. My desire is to facilitate true reconciliation... Staying with my husband has not inspired within him an incentive toward change. Our family is dysfunctional and the environment as it is too unhealthy. My purpose on this forum is only to seek understanding of what a separation entails legally and to find out how it can be done with as little trauma to our 8 yr. old as possible. I am not seeking to exercise a punitive separation which communicates, "So long --I'm outta here!!!".... I'm not seeking to hurt my husband financially just because I am asking questions about what his monetary responsibilities would be... I am only seeking a possible therapeutic separation in hopes to stimulate an eventual desire for reconciliation within my husband .... At this point, it seems that it may be the only thing left to do since he has abandoned counseling.

[Proserpina]

Originally Posted by i.m4Truth

. At this point, it seems that it may be the only thing left to do since he has abandoned counseling.

Because of this statement, unfortunately I do think that yes, your best (not nicest by any means) option now is to make sure your child is taken care of - and by both parents - and your rights are protected as much as possible. Ideally the two of you can get through the divorce as unscathed as possible and with as few wounds (financial as well as emotional) as possible.

Good luck, whatever your decision.

[Justice???]

And with all due respect, this is not a forum dedicated to religion and/or faith. It's about legalities.

Agreed also, but if this small space could save a good family from the devastation of divorce, I appreciate your patience.

Ideally the two of you can get through the divorce as unscathed as possible and with as few wounds (financial as well as emotional) as possible.

There are five of them. None will be unscathed. None will not have wounds.

You know your situation. I'm just pointing out that divorce can be filled with deep emotional and financial trauma for your entire family. I can only guess at your circumstances, but sense that you are taking a wrong turn (for you) let alone your children.

First, you will have to get a full time job. Why not let him know that you intend to start working outside the home full time? You will be more informed about your eventuality, and he will be more informed that you are willing to become independent of him.

There is little reason for him not to agree to counseling for his family. And please state it just that way. WE all want family counseling. Takes the blame off everyone and suggests that neither is perfect (which of course is true). Pull him to the family, not push. Build, not tear down.

I'm sorry you find yourself in this situation. But remember, ALL long marriages face their trials, only those willing to sacrifice, set aside pride, and forgive finish. They and their families are much stronger for it.

Please don't head into uncharted waters, my sense is you will be very, very, very disappointed. I'm speaking from experience. A list of heart wrenching letters from our children wishing we were a family again. Seeing the pain in their eyes. As for the two of us, pride and justification eventually forgotten, wondering where the greener grass was and when the pain and financial difficulties stops for both of us and the children.

Now you are informed. I truly wish you and your family the best.

Thanks again, dogmatique, for your patience. If this can spare one family the pain ours has experienced, your rewards will be great.

[i.m4Truth]

Dear Justice,

You write as though you did not even read my previous post.
Here it is again:


Quote:

....a divorce initiated by her, is not a good option for her. I too, would like to see them reconcile.

If you will please look at the title of this thread and the first sentence of my initial post you will see that you have misunderstood this whole thread. My desire is to avoid divorce not pursue it. My desire is to facilitate true reconciliation... Staying with my husband has not inspired within him an incentive toward change. Our family is dysfunctional and, the environment as it is, too unhealthy. My purpose on this forum is only to seek understanding of what a separation entails legally and to find out how it can be done with as little trauma to our 8 yr. old as possible. I am not seeking to exercise a punitive separation which communicates, "So long --I'm outta here!!!".... I'm not seeking to hurt my husband financially just because I am asking questions about what his monetary responsibilities would be... I am only seeking a possible therapeutic separation in hopes to stimulate an eventual desire for reconciliation within my husband .... At this point, it seems that it may be the only thing left to do since he has abandoned counseling.



I'm confused by your continued writing as though I desire a divorce.... ??

Here is another thought I wish to address:

None will be unscathed. None will not have wounds.

You are right. Whenever a marriage is broken people are wounded. But staying inside that broken environment and giving an appearance to our children that all is OK I venture to say is possibly more damaging in the long run than taking a time of separation to live the truth out before them. Our sons need to see that what their father is choosing is unacceptable for a man to do to a woman. Then, they will think twice about replicating it in their own marriages and continuing the destructive cycle. If they see a willingness in their mother to allow manipulation, lies, secrecy, overt domination and selfishness, they will have the banner past on to them that this is the way for men to treat women -- that this is the way marriage is supposed to be -- Men ruling the home as tyrants rather than as loving, faithful leaders.

Justice, while you are correct that separation may bring on some difficulties, likewise, there are difficulties encountered by allowing things to go on as they are too. There is nothing healthy about dishonesty and giving the appearance to those looking on as if you are giving your best to seek reconciliation with your wife when that is an absolute lie. (Telling brothers at church that the reason you have missed counseling sessions is because you are having trouble fitting it in to your busy work schedule and fearful of how it could cause you to lose your job... and other excuses seeking sympathy. The fact is he discontinued going because he does not want to do what the counselor instructed which involves him showing accountability and a desire to walk in transparency with me -- to lay aside his bent toward secrecy -- by allowing me access to credit card statements and other financial documents. He is unwilling to follow this instruction. That is only one example though. There are many other idols.... of which will likely bring equal discomfort...) There is nothing healthy about living with someone who walks in dishonesty without conscience, nothing healthy about living with a spouse who prefers independence over intimacy, nothing healthy about living with a spouse who thinks secrecy is OK, nothing healthy about living with a spouse who devalues and mistreats the other and never owns it -- never comes to ask forgiveness or acknowledge a destructive pattern. There is nothing healthy about trampling the forgiving person's grace over and over again without care... Please consider how these things are potentially more damaging than that associated with separation. Our children would not be deprived of their relationship with their father. They would just be finally given an opportunity to see clearly what the real values are of each of their parents....

Justice, I know you mean well and I so appreciate your desire to give warning about all the negatives, and I am sorry to hear that your family is suffering. I am taking to heart all that you share, believe me.

[xylene]

Unless your husband has had intercourse outside of marriage - he has not committed adultery.

Pornography and masturbation are healthy sexual outlets. Husband has a right to them, and unless he has abandoned you sexually (which means not having sex with you for a substantial period of time) then his masturbatory life is not grounds for divorce.

If he is contacting other people online - this MAY be grounds, but you do not state that you have evidence that would be admissible.

[notoversteppin]

Originally Posted by xylene

Unless your husband has had intercourse outside of marriage - he has not committed adultery.

Pornography and masturbation are healthy sexual outlets. Husband has a right to them, and unless he has abandoned you sexually (which means not having sex with you for a substantial period of of) then his masturbatory life is not grounds for divorce.

If he is contacting other people online - this MAY be grounds, but you do not state that you have evidence that would be admissible.

You don't need grounds for a divorce in North Carolina. It's a no fault state.

[xylene]

Originally Posted by notoversteppin

You don't need grounds for a divorce in North Carolina. It's a no fault state.

The poster implies that adultery is involved. What she has stated is occuring is not adultery.

Of course she can pursue a no-fault divorce. Which could have significant impact on her support amount and duration - support which she seems to be counting on.

[notoversteppin]

Originally Posted by xylene

The poster implies that adultery is involved. What she has stated is occuring is not adultery.

Of course she can pursue a no-fault divorce. Which could have significant impact on her support amount and duration - support which she seems to be counting on.

Your reply seemed to imply she needed grounds. That was my interpretation and I just wanted to make sure she knew that she didn't need grounds. How does that affect her support amount? She can still file for support. Maybe i'm missing something here and just need clarification.

[Proserpina]

Originally Posted by i.m4Truth

Dear Justice,

You write as though you did not even read my previous post.
Here it is again:


Quote:


If you will please look at the title of this thread and the first sentence of my initial post you will see that you have misunderstood this whole thread. My desire is to avoid divorce not pursue it. My desire is to facilitate true reconciliation... Staying with my husband has not inspired within him an incentive toward change. Our family is dysfunctional and, the environment as it is, too unhealthy. My purpose on this forum is only to seek understanding of what a separation entails legally and to find out how it can be done with as little trauma to our 8 yr. old as possible. I am not seeking to exercise a punitive separation which communicates, "So long --I'm outta here!!!".... I'm not seeking to hurt my husband financially just because I am asking questions about what his monetary responsibilities would be... I am only seeking a possible therapeutic separation in hopes to stimulate an eventual desire for reconciliation within my husband .... At this point, it seems that it may be the only thing left to do since he has abandoned counseling.



I'm confused by your continued writing as though I desire a divorce.... ??

Here is another thought I wish to address:





You are right. Whenever a marriage is broken people are wounded. But staying inside that broken environment and giving an appearance to our children that all is OK I venture to say is possibly more damaging in the long run than taking a time of separation to live the truth out before them. Our sons need to see that what their father is choosing is unacceptable for a man to do to a woman. Then, they will think twice about replicating it in their own marriages and continuing the destructive cycle. If they see a willingness in their mother to allow manipulation, lies, secrecy, overt domination and selfishness, they will have the banner past on to them that this is the way for men to treat women -- that this is the way marriage is supposed to be -- Men ruling the home as tyrants rather than as loving, faithful leaders.

Justice, while you are correct that separation may bring on some difficulties, likewise, there are difficulties encountered by allowing things to go on as they are too. There is nothing healthy about dishonesty and giving the appearance to those looking on as if you are giving your best to seek reconciliation with your wife when that is an absolute lie. (Telling brothers at church that the reason you have missed counseling sessions is because you are having trouble fitting it in to your busy work schedule and fearful of how it could cause you to lose your job... and other excuses seeking sympathy. The fact is he discontinued going because he does not want to do what the counselor instructed which involves him showing accountability and a desire to walk in transparency with me -- to lay aside his bent toward secrecy -- by allowing me access to credit card statements and other financial documents. He is unwilling to follow this instruction. That is only one example though. There are many other idols.... of which will likely bring equal discomfort...) There is nothing healthy about living with someone who walks in dishonesty without conscience, nothing healthy about living with a spouse who prefers independence over intimacy, nothing healthy about living with a spouse who thinks secrecy is OK, nothing healthy about living with a spouse who devalues and mistreats the other and never owns it -- never comes to ask forgiveness or acknowledge a destructive pattern. There is nothing healthy about trampling the forgiving person's grace over and over again without care... Please consider how these things are potentially more damaging than that associated with separation. Our children would not be deprived of their relationship with their father. They would just be finally given an opportunity to see clearly what the real values are of each of their parents....

Justice, I know you mean well and I so appreciate your desire to give warning about all the negatives, and I am sorry to hear that your family is suffering. I am taking to heart all that you share, believe me.

Regardless of whether or not I agree with the sentiment here, I do have to say, OP...this is one of the most gracious and sincere responses I've ever read.

Thank you.

[Justice???]

I sincerely hope I can give some insight by referencing some text. I'm here only to help your family, not to make judgments. I don't want to tie up this great web site, so you can send a private message if you wish. I hope this may open the eyes of others who find themselves in this situation.

I just want you to listen to another's unbiased opinion, before moving forward. I've been in those dangerous uncharted waters, and in a situation not much different from yours, so my perspective may be beneficial to you.

You BOTH are in a very, very, very emotionally charged situation with a lot more at stake than you now realize. Don't make decisions without a lot of good counseling where the FACTS (without any exaggeration) are completely laid out (good and bad). Ultimately, the decision is from either of you. If either wants to (Mask Wear) to rationalize or justify their decision, that can easily be accomplished without a counselor wasting time chasing exaggerations. Lean not, on your own understanding.

I have a few questions regarding the determination of one's eligibility for spousal support during a separation (possibly permanent).

Legally, I think that has been answered. You will/should acquire full time employment to supplement any possible support. I addressed a way to do that (while you are together), but you have not responded. If you unfortunately find yourself heading in the direction of separation, and reconciliation is the goal, discuss this with your husband to see what his thoughts are on providing support while temporarily separated (who knows, he may need a break also).

If he doesn't think a separation is beneficial, you will still have a RIGHT to supplemental support. He may question your integrity and faith, when forcing him to continue his obligation to YOU, while you choose to abandon your obligation to HIM. The wedge between you will, more than likely, become bigger.

You have chosen a walk of faith that is not always easy, but always rewarding, if you finish. If this is the path (very commendable) you wish to follow, don't get caught up in your RIGHT's, you would also have a RIGHT to a late term abortion. Neither may not fit your goal or the moral standards you have said you desire to follow.

Our sons need to see that what their father is choosing is unacceptable for a man to do to a woman.

Staying in a marriage never condones as acceptable, any action of either spouse, your children are very aware of that. Your children will care less, who’s at fault. Only that the secure sanctuary they feel comfortable in, has been destroyed. "She destroyed my life", in my son's words. "I want to be a family again", in my daughters.

Your son's also need to see a strong mother and wife who walks by what she is teaching them. I believe that you want them to also turn to the word, and more importantly, from your perspective, trust in it, in unfortunate trials, and seemingly perilous times, setting aside their own emotion and separate desire from needs. Separation or Divorce will leave them with many challenging questions. Your sons, will see both sides, and wonder what was so wrong on either side that their family was destroyed.

If they see a willingness in their mother to allow manipulation, lies, secrecy, overt domination and selfishness

Obviously, they will see it as wrong, but maybe not worth destroying their family. I mean, what a selfish jerk. He's wanting (desiring) more than 98% of spouses are accustomed to. And probably feels entitled to it.

I agree that I need to work. I just believe my working a full-time 40 hour week would bring about additional difficulty for our son and complicate the ability to keep his education going in the same manner in which it has up to this point (thus the belief part-time work would be better)...

From his perspective. I mean, what a selfish jerk. She's wanting (desiring) more than 98% of spouses are accustomed to. And probably feels entitled to it. She's already posted that I work long hours to provide her sheltered life style. I wish I could be more open with her, but I just don't trust her, I want to, but feel she's been snooping around and being secretive. I feel more like a slave, than a husband. It's like, whatever I do, it is never enough. I know I'm not perfect, but neither is she. She never respects me or gives me credit for anything anymore, like her posts, she beats me down continually to gain sympathy. I don't feel like a man, or a leader. I cry at night. I'm emotionally, physically, and spiritually exhausted. I'm embarrassed my relationship is in this mess, I just need everyone off my butt for a little while, they don't know the stress I'm under. Why does she want to see bills I I I I pay, she must be up to something? Is she the "Sin Police" or what? She's always pointing the finger at me, but never looks at her own actions. Self-pity is not healthy for either of us. I know she has been secretly on-line and she read a romance novel once, ("How do I know she's not committing adultery as well? in you words)

You see, emotion can horribly distort the truth. Please understand, I'm not at all defending his actions. I'm only pointing out what might be HIS thought process. Hopefully, it will help you bring about positive communication to promote needed change.

husband has RECENTLY discontinued attending sessions

This is a big one. First, he cares about you and his family, or he would not have went in the first place. People generally don't change overnight, it will take time to turn the ship. Remember, he is in an emotional struggle also. Just as many (maybe more) responsibilities, just as many feelings. Your world is different from his. What he will blow off as trivial, because he deals with it at work daily, maybe hourly, may mean the world to you. Good counseling will help him with this, and help him understand and respect your daily challenges. Be patient, give him milk, not meat.

He is not the emotional creature you are, both are wired differently, both need to understand and respect that. I would bet he would take a bullit for anyone in his family (in other words, die for you), you've posted he works long hours to support them. A very good indication he cares deeply for his family, maybe in the best way he currently knows how. It does not justify his actions, but it's a very good start, and, you have already agreed, even with his (maybe a tiny little bit emotionally exaggerated) faults, he is a keeper.

Keep your head up. Your brothers will not be long fooled by any excuses on his part. Be patient, be strong, protect your 25 year investment and trust in your faith. Don't push, pull. Make a goal to walk your walk for another year and then re-evaluate.

I wish you and your family the very best.

[Proserpina]

If he doesn't think a separation is beneficial, you will still have a RIGHT to supplemental support. He may question your integrity and faith, when forcing him to continue his obligation to YOU, while you choose to abandon your obligation to HIM. The wedge between you will, more than likely, become bigger.

OP may indeed have the moral right to be supported, but legally? We don't know yet. It will take a court (or an agreement between the two parties) to answer that.

You have chosen a walk of faith that is not always easy, but always rewarding, if you finish. If this is the path (very commendable) you wish to follow, don't get caught up in your RIGHT's, you would also have a RIGHT to a late term abortion. That neither may not fit your goal or the moral standards you have said you desire to follow.

What exactly is the relevance of this?

Staying in a marriage never condones as acceptable, any action of either spouse, your children are very aware of that. Your children will care less, who’s at fault. Only that the secure sanctuary they feel comfortable in, has been destroyed. "She destroyed my life", in my son's words. "I want to be a family again", in my daughters.

Your experience is not necessarily the same as that of the OP. Indeed, my siblings and I tend to agree that it would have been much easier on all of us had my parents actually divorced when they realized the marriage was over. Instead they stayed married - "for the sake of the children" - and that in itself caused much turmoil and suffering. It was not the kinder alternative by any means.

Your son's also need to see a strong mother and wife who walks by what she is teaching them. I believe that you want them to also turn to the word, and more importantly, from your perspective, trust in it, in unfortunate trials, and seemingly perilous times, setting aside their own emotion and separate desire from needs. Separation or Divorce will leave them with many challenging questions. Your sons, will see both sides, and wonder what was so wrong on either side that their family was destroyed.

Exactly..and one result of this could easily be that "Mom says adultery is wrong, but she stayed with Dad anyways - so it can't be that serious a matter...and my girlfriend shouldn't complain if I cheat on her". That's a sentiment I think most of us would prefer to be without. We cannot shelter our children from every difficult situation. There will be pain and discomfort during a divorce, absolutely. There is pain and suffering when a married couple stay together for the wrong reasons - and believe me, the children DO suffer when this happens.

Obviously, they will see it as wrong, but not worth destroying their family. I mean, what a selfish jerk. He's wanting (desiring) more than 98% of spouses are accustomed to. And probably feels entitled to it.

If Mom does stay with Dad, she is actually condoning the behavior somewhat. Worse (once again) it could very easily send that same message - "sure, it's serious, but not that big a deal".

This is a big one. First, he cares about you and his family, or he would not have went in the first place. People generally don't change overnight, it will take time to turn the ship. Remember, he is in an emotional struggle also. Just as many (maybe more) responsibilities, just as many feelings. Your world is different from his. What he will blow off as trivial, because it deals with it at work daily, maybe hourly, may mean the world to you. Good counseling will help him with this, and help him understand and respect your daily challenges. Be patient, give him milk, not meat.

He is not the emotional creature you are, both are wired differently, both need to understand and respect that. I would bet he would take a bullit for anyone in his family, you've posted he works long hours to support them. A very good indication he cares deeply for his family, maybe in the best way he currently knows how. It does not justify his actions, but it's a very good start, and, you have already agreed, even with his (maybe a tiny little bit emotionally exaggerated) faults, he is a keeper.

Keep your head up. Your brothers will not be long fooled by any excuses on his part. Be patient, be strong, protect your 25 year investment and trust in your faith. Don't push, pull. Make a goal to walk your walk for another year and then re-evaluate.

I wish you and your family the very best.

And the best for the family might well be divorce. Dad does not get a free pass simply because he's wired differently to Mom - as adults, we are meant to acknowledge that there will be emotional and psychological differences between the genders - and despite this, we will also be expected to carry on respectfully and with dignity. That would be a responsible adult.

This is a very emotional and painful situation - I think if nothing else OP needs to consider both options as viable alternatives. Divorce or remaining in the marriage? Both have their drawbacks, suffering and complications - and both can prove to be beneficial for everyone involved.

Summary? Divorce is not always the greater of the two evils.

[Justice???]

I can assure you I wish to follow The Word and do not want to make any rash decisions. I want to be reconciled to my husband

She has stated that it is her wish to continue her walk in the word. I'm giving her some viable options available to her.

What exactly is the relevance of this?

Her stated commitment and desire is based on the Bible. She is well aware that there is a separation between what is her legal right and the accountability of her chosen religion. The relevance is the contrast between her legal rights and those she wishes to live by. She understands it is easier to condemn something she would never think of doing, verses rationalizing something that she might think will be convenient for her.

Instead they stayed married - "for the sake of the children" - and that in itself caused much turmoil and suffering. It was not the kinder alternative by any means.

I sorry you had to experience that. Should we deny all the studies of the effects of divorce on children? I know there are success stories, but very far from the majority.

I think her situation is much closer to my own. My children experienced both family and divorce, they choose family.

And the best for the family might well be divorce

She would tell you that is not an option for her, at this time. A better OPTION may be to get a taste of the eventualities of a separation, to make a more informed decision should that become necessary. She has chosen a commendable path for her life and seeks to be with her family. Between the lines of her posts, I see some good traits about him. Some need attention. I think they have a great opportunity to learn from this and become a stronger family. I wish I had the opportunity to speak with him, I'm sure he is hurting also.

I.m4truth, walk thru the valley and finish your journey. Do not fear, by your admission you are in good hands, being drawn closer. Good things happen to good people, and I believe you are one of them. You have been given all you need to pass this test. Wake up tomorrow, and be happy, it is your choice. I realize you understand all that I have said here and I'm very sorry you find yourself in this situation. You are still in control, not trapped as you may feel, you know your situation and you may leave anytime you wish. Only from experience I can say that may not be your best option.

Continue good biblical counseling that you desire. They will separate the emotion from your situation and give you all viable options. Beware of those in sheeps clothing influencing your walk, their direction will not match what has been written for your accepted worthwhile journey. Your chosen profession of faith, your determination, and your strength are a great witness to your commitment.

[Proserpina]

Originally Posted by Justice???

S Beware of those in sheeps clothing influencing your walk.

Precisely.

[i.m4Truth]

I just need everyone off my butt for a little while....
She must be up to something......
Is she the "Sin Police" or what?

Justice, you summed up very well what I believe is likely my husband's thought processes in the paragraph these snippets were taken from. The above, though, best reflect what appears to be the driving forces in his mind which lead him to such negaitve thinking / assumptions. He can't trust me because he knows he, himself, is dishonest, secretive and untrustworthy and he is transferring the knowledge of himself on to me (which I have come to understand is a very common practice among destructive people).

This is a big one. First, he cares about you and his family, or he would not have went in the first place (to counseling)

This is not necessarily true. People who are comfortable wearing masks often make choices like this in order to appear to be doing the right thing. I am the one who sought the counseling. How was it going to look for him to decline going? He didn't want to have a negative appearance, so he complied.... for a little while. Now he is trying to figure out how best to manipulate the facts about his recent choice to discontinue going. He has chosen to lie to elders that it is due to work pressures.....
He is continuing destructive choices rather than walking in truth.

There are other parts of your reply I would like to be able to respond to but really do not have the time and also because I believe we are just going around in circles anyway and no one is really benefitting from this, it doesn't seem that it would be purposeful.
I just wanted to give a quick reply to the above and let you know that we are at least in agreement on this following quote:

You see, emotion can horribly distort the truth

That is very true. That is why we need to be sure we are walking in the truth (factual observations) rather than according to feelings, emotions and contrived speculations.
Thanks again for your input.