Spousal Support during Separation

[i.m4Truth]

What is the name of your state (only U.S. law)? NC

Hello.

I have a few questions regarding the determination of one's eligibiility for spousal support during a separation (possibly permanent). As a Christian I prefer not to pursue a divorce from my husband -- would rather leave hope for reconciliation if at all possible. But because of continued mistreatment by him over the years (25 now), I am at a place where I have completely lost all trust in him and feel emotionally abandoned and unsafe. There is a pattern of pornography, lying, secrecy, keeping me in the dark about finances (preventing my access to credit card statements, bank acct. info, etc.), undermining me in front of the children, and basically just overt manipulation and an indifference about it all. No one would know looking on from the outside as he is quite skilled at mask-wearing.

Sadly, my remaining in the home appears to only give him a sense of acceptance of his behavior and therefore just serves to further enable his destructiveness. It seems now the only possible stimulus toward helping him face the truth about himself and our relationship would be for me to seek a separation. So, here are my questions:

1) If I were to separate, would I have any grounds for receiving spousal support?

2)What kind of evidence would I need to provide for the above abuses? (I have evidence of his pornography use, his denying me access to financial information and some evidence of instances of his lying and secrecy, but I am wondering how much would be needed to verify his nature and level of callousness toward me?)

We have three children -- two now in college, but our 8 yr. old is still at home and is homeschooled. Being comfortable with that educational choice, neither he nor I would want to change it. It has been working well for him (although the growing dysfunction in our home is affecting him emotionally... Providing a more healthy and stable environment for him is also a major part of my motivation for considering separation).
With that in mind, and if it would be possible for me to gain spousal support --

3) Do you believe it would be enough such that I would only need to seek part time work? (Obviously, I would like to minimze as much trauma to our son as possible and be able to continue approaching homeschooling, outside activities, and daily life as much as possible as we have been.... )

4) How long would spousal support be required to continue? (We have been married 25 yrs. and I have not been employed outside the home in 18 yrs).

Thanks much for the advice!

Sincerely,
i.m4Truth

[Proserpina]

Please wait for the seniors to answer - I just wanted to comment on one part of your post.

Re #3. You'd generally be expected to support yourself, too. I realize that you don't want to disrupt kiddo's schedule at the moment but what you want and what you need to do might be two entirely different animals.

You need to be working; though your husband probably will - if you divorce - be ordered to pay alimony you can't depend solely on that as your income. What would happen if he couldn't work?

ETA: as harsh as this might sound, from an objective viewpoint you were fine (accepting) if his behavior for a long, long time....I'd be surprised if you could use this against him now.

[i.m4Truth]

Dogmatique,

You said:
"You need to be working; though your husband probably will - if you divorce - be ordered to pay alimony you can't depend solely on that as your income. ..."

I agree that I need to work. I just believe my working a full-time 40 hour week would bring about additional difficulty for our son and complicate the ability to keep his education going in the same manner in which it has up to this point (thus the belief part-time work would be better)...

To your follow-up question,
"What would happen if he couldn't work?"

The same thing that would happen if he were to lose the abilty to work right now while we are still living in the same home. I would obviously need to take on a job that would make up the difference where disability insurance lacked. But I am thinking that is probably a separate issue.

To your statement:
"As harsh as this might sound, from an objective viewpoint you were fine (accepting) if his behavior for a long, long time....I'd be surprised if you could use this against him now."

That is very disconcerting if true. To bring clarity, the destructive behavior has not been continuous for 25 years (that is just how long our marriage has been). It has been a gradual decline. The porn, although suspected to be going on for a few years now, was not actually discovered until 6 months ago. I began seeking help through various councelors about 5 years ago (We have seen three different ones now. And regarding the current one, husband has recently discontinued attending sessions). So, no, I have never demonstrated an acceptance of his behavior. I have been working hard trying to address concerns and bring about healing, but husband has refused efforts to restore trust. It is only now that I have reached the understanding that likely no change will occur because he feels he has no need to do anything -- there is no incentive from his standpoint to change because all is going just fine for him. He has everything he wants....

It is heart-wrenching to think that my extending patience and hope could actually be used as a negative.
Thanks for your feedback, though.

i.m4Truth

[deecopperpot]

I feel for you. Just because you accepted long term abuse, it will not be held against you. I was married for 33 years and raised 3 sons who are successful due to me "taking it for the team". You do what you need to do for your son. As soon as my sons were out of the house, I left one morning. In NY there are only 3 reasons for divorce..adultery, dissertion and abuse. You have to have a year of separation in order to file for a divorce. I was divorced in 8 months due to abuse. My husband's problem was money hoarding and drinking....which led to other abuse. I did not want alimony.

My advice for you would be to put your son in a good public school, get a job and get a separation if you cannot stay the next 10 years till your son goes away to college. If your son is witnessing the abuse and never even gets to see kids in school...he will know nothing else.

Good luck to you and your son.

[i.m4Truth]

Deecopperpot,

Thanks for your response. I understand your perspective that children should be in public school. Be assurred my son is not isolated as is the unfortunate stereotype of homeschoolers it seems. He attends outside classes twice a week and gets plenty of other interaction with kids through sports and other extra curricular acitivities... Considering his needs are very high on my list, and the bottom line is he likes homeschooling -- all the flexibility and personal attention that goes with it, so I wouldn't want to change that if at all possible.

If I have to work full time, though, I would do so, but in doing research on separation/divorce, I read somewhere that women married a long time, as I have, can usually count on financial help moreso than those married less than ten years and who have already been in the workforce. I am in need of either confirmation or correction on this.
So, I am still hoping to hear from a lawyer or highly knowledgeable person who can tell me whether or not issues of emotional abuse, secrecy, pornography, and such. (rather than typical grounds like physical abuse or adultery... Although, due to the long hours he spends at work?, my lack of access to financial statements, and such -- how do I know that adultery isn't occurring as well?) -- I need to know whether these constitute grounds for receiving spousal support in a separation or am I just stuck with a rotten outcome no matter which direction I go?

Thanks for anyone's help in answering this main question...

[Proserpina]

In NC, adultery apparently does matter.

2) What factors does the court consider?
The factors that are considered by the court are as follows:

1. The marital misconduct of either of the spouses,
2. The relative earnings and earning capacity of the spouses,
3. The ages and the physical, mental, and emotional conditions of the spouses,
4. The amount and sources of earned and unearned income of both spouses, including, but not limited to, earnings, dividends, and benefits such as medical, retirement, insurance, social security, or others,
5. The duration of the marriage,
6. The contribution by one spouse to the education, training, or increased earning power of the other spouse,
7. The extent to which the earning power, expenses, or financial obligations of a spouse will be affected by reason of serving as the custodian of a minor child,
8. The standard of living of the spouses established during the marriage,
9. The relative education of the spouses and the time necessary to acquire sufficient education or training to enable the spouse seeking alimony to find employment to meet his or her reasonable economic needs,
10. The relative assets and liabilities of the spouses and the relative debt service requirements of the spouses, including legal obligations of support,
11. The property brought to the marriage by either spouse,
12. The contribution of a spouse as homemaker,
13. The relative needs of the spouses,
14. The federal, state, and local tax ramifications of the alimony award, and
15. Any other factor relating to the economic circumstances of the parties that the court finds to be just and proper.

and

Marital Misconduct of the parties is defined as:

(a) Illicit sexual behavior. For the purpose of this section, illicit sexual behavior means acts of sexual or deviate sexual intercourse, deviate sexual acts, or sexual acts defined in G.S. 14-27.1(4), voluntarily engaged in by a spouse with someone other than the other spouse,
(b) Involuntary separation of the spouses in consequence of a criminal act committed prior to the proceeding in which alimony is sought,
(c) Abandonment of the other spouse,
(d) Malicious turning out-of-doors of the other spouse,
(e) Cruel or barbarous treatment endangering the life of the other spouse,
(f) Indignities rendering the condition of the other spouse intolerable and life burdensome,
(g) Reckless spending of the income of either party, or the destruction, waste, diversion, or concealment of assets,
(h) Excessive use of alcohol or drugs so as to render the condition of the other spouse intolerable and life burdensome, and
(i) Willful failure to provide necessary subsistence according to one's means and condition so as to render the condition of the other spouse intolerable and life burdensome.

Also in your favor is the duration of your marriage.

Your best bet is to speak with an attorney.

[LdiJ]

Originally Posted by i.m4Truth

Deecopperpot,

Thanks for your response. I understand your perspective that children should be in public school. Be assurred my son is not isolated as is the unfortunate stereotype of homeschoolers it seems. He attends outside classes twice a week and gets plenty of other interaction with kids through sports and other extra curricular acitivities... Considering his needs are very high on my list, and the bottom line is he likes homeschooling -- all the flexibility and personal attention that goes with it, so I wouldn't want to change that if at all possible.

If I have to work full time, though, I would do so, but in doing research on separation/divorce, I read somewhere that women married a long time, as I have, can usually count on financial help moreso than those married less than ten years and who have already been in the workforce. I am in need of either confirmation or correction on this.
So, I am still hoping to hear from a lawyer or highly knowledgeable person who can tell me whether or not issues of emotional abuse, secrecy, pornography, and such. (rather than typical grounds like physical abuse or adultery... Although, due to the long hours he spends at work?, my lack of access to financial statements, and such -- how do I know that adultery isn't occurring as well?) -- I need to know whether these constitute grounds for receiving spousal support in a separation or am I just stuck with a rotten outcome no matter which direction I go?

What constitutes spousal support is a long term marriage where one of the spouses has been out of the workforce for most or all of the marriage. All of the rest of the items that you are mentioning are not particularly relevant.

The problem is that in determining spousal support, it will be expected that you will work to the extent of your earning capacity. Spousal support is considered to be a supplement to income, its not intended to provide your sole support. In addition, should you receive primary custody of the child, spousal support is subordinate to child support.

You have not given any indication at all of what kind of money your husband earns. Unless he is an extremely high wage earner, you odds of receiving enough spousal support to allow you to continue your current lifestyle, even with child support and spousal support, are slim.

[Proserpina]

LdiJ, apparently some of those factors are relevant after all (admittedly that did surprise me a bit).

Then again, how much can OP prove?

[i.m4Truth]

Dogmatique,

Thanks for the NC info. I am familiar with it. I just need more clarity on issues regarding Marital Misconduct such as:


(a) Illicit sexual behavior..... or sexual acts defined in G.S. 14-27.1(4), voluntarily engaged in by a spouse with someone other than the other spouse,
I suspect some level of illicit behavior may have occured/occuring, but if not he certainly is having S with himself and with others "virtually" by way of internet. Apparently this sanitary, secret form of adultery does not count, though.

(c) Abandonment of the other spouse,
Does this have to mean physically leaving the residence or can it mean just as well a spouse who has physically (sexually), emotionally, and spiritually left the marriage relationship yet still lives in the same home acting like all is OK? And also, what if I were to leave -- would I then be able to be accused of abandonment by him?

(f) Indignities rendering the condition of the other spouse intolerable and life burdensome,
How does a court of law determine what indignities are? That could vary from one person's perspective to another, couldn't it? I feel terribly dishonored, betrayed and mistreated in many ways -- but is this considered indignity? It certainly is intolerable, burdensome and I would add also unhealthy from my perspective, but how is this decided by lawyers/judges?


LDiJ

Thank you also for your input. You wrote:

You have not given any indication at all of what kind of money your husband earns. Unless he is an extremely high wage earner, you odds of receiving enough spousal support to allow you to continue your current lifestyle, even with child support and spousal support, are slim.

Husband makes around 90k/yr -netting $5300/mo. (only found out recently due to sneaking a peak at a paycheck and looking over tax forms before signing).

Thanks again to all of you bringing advice.

[Justice???]

As a Christian I prefer not to pursue a divorce from my husband

I have concerns when someone thumps the Bible right before they don't pay any attention to it. I not saying you are wrong, but I don't see any indication of efforts to address these accusations. I'm sure the other side would say you have issues that need attention as well.

1) If I were to separate, would I have any grounds for receiving spousal support?

The abuse is so bad you will set aside your Bible and get away from this horrible abuse, only if you are encouraged by Spousal Support? I think, you will agree, that he has made some sacrifices to support you for the past 18 years. Why should you walk away from your commitment to the relationship, but expect him to keep his?

(only found out recently due to sneaking a peak at a paycheck and looking over tax forms before signing).

I would bet the farm, you've peaked before, and more than likely could/have walk around the house and immediately put your hands on this information. From reading your posts, I think you have all the intelligence necessary to find this information. But, will it fit your story?

abandoned and unsafe

UNSAFE? That's the buzz word. I read no evidence of that. To me, that is a very, very serious accusation. Yet, you don't identify any instances at all. If, that is happening, you should leave immediately, with or without Spousal Support and he should be held accountable.

how do I know that adultery isn't occurring as well?)

The same way he does. I don't think you believe that is a possibility. But, it looks good in your justification.

Look, I know I'm being hard on you. I'm not saying you are wrong. I just understand there MAY be more to this than I'm reading. There is nothing wrong with simply being unhappy with a situation. But, gross exaggerations to justify your intentions is not helping your family, "Quite skilled at mask-wearing", in your words.
He should be held accountable and needs some counseling to change some untrustworthy actions on his part. You may find, that you can use a tune up also. I truly hope both of you get to/more counseling and work this out. Divorce can be a very ugly thing. I hope he is strong enough to change, and both of you can look inward. Good luck to both of you and all the children. Don't think that Divorce won't affect the older ones.

[i.m4Truth]

Justice,

I am sorry that you see my need to be fully informed and desire to be able to assess best how to weigh out the lesser of two evil outcomes (the details entailed in staying or leaving) as ignoring scripture or Bible thumping. I can assure you I wish to follow The Word and do not want to make any rash decisions. I want to be reconciled to my husband but he clearly does not, so what is a wife to do in that situation? You said I did not provide facts. Please go back and read previous posts -- but here are just a few repeats: Husband has discontinued counseling and has refused to follow counselors directives. Husband has kept me in the dark about finances and maintains the attitude that I have no right to that information. Husband has flat out said, "I don't care if you don't trust me!" He clearly has abandoned me in all ways except leaving the home.

That is why I need someone to help answer the questions of my previous post. They are (rephrased a bit):

(c) Abandonment of the other spouse,
Is this limited to physically leaving the residence or can it mean just as well a spouse who has physically (sexually), emotionally, and spiritually left the marriage relationship yet still lives in the same home acting like all is OK?

And in contrast, if I were to leave the home -- would I then be able to be accused of abandonment by him?

(f) Indignities rendering the condition of the other spouse intolerable and life burdensome,
How does a court of law determine what indignities are? That could vary from one person's perspective to another, couldn't it? I feel terribly dishonored, betrayed and mistreated in many ways, and I can no longer trust my husband (And he does not care) -- but is this considered indignity? It certainly is intolerable, burdensome and I would add also unhealthy from my perspective, but how is this decided by lawyers/judges?

Here's a repeat on my request of LDiJ too:

LDiJ

Thank you also for your input. You wrote:

Quote:
You have not given any indication at all of what kind of money your husband earns. Unless he is an extremely high wage earner, you odds of receiving enough spousal support to allow you to continue your current lifestyle, even with child support and spousal support, are slim.

Husband makes around 90k/yr -netting $5300/mo. (only found out recently due to sneaking a peak at a paycheck and looking over tax forms before signing).

Thanks again to all of you bringing advice.

[Justice???]

I can assure you I wish to follow The Word, so what is a wife to do in that situation?

I can assure you the Bible is very clear on that. You should continue your Biblical counseling if that is your wish.

You sound like a very kind person. I truly wish you and your family the very best. I'm only trying to get you to look inward. Many (vast majority) would say you have a pretty nice ride.

While we men are certainly not the emotional creatures our better halves are, we make up for it by being hard headed. However, we do have feelings and intuitions. Maybe he has sensed something that has him feeling a bit unappreciated, abandoned, or is untrusting of you. Remember, he is not wired to think like you.

As an example, you feel you are entitled to him supporting you. He feels he is entitled to keep you in the dark. I can see why there would be a lack of trust from both sides. What I'm trying to say is, divorce will more than likely be a poor choice for you and your family. Fight for them, believe in yourself and your faith. He needs you also.

Oh, the legal stuff. I think the Seniors have done a pretty good job explaining that you will not survive on his support alone.

[Proserpina]

Originally Posted by Justice???

I can assure you the Bible is very clear on that. You should continue your Biblical counseling if that is your wish.

You sound like a very kind person. I truly wish you and your family the very best. I'm only trying to get you to look inward. Many (vast majority) would say you have a pretty nice ride.

While we men are certainly not the emotional creatures our better halves are, we make up for it by being hard headed. However, we do have feelings and intuitions. Maybe he has sensed something that has him feeling a bit unappreciated, abandoned, or is untrusting of you. Remember, he is not wired to think like you.

As an example, you feel you are entitled to him supporting you. He feels he is entitled to keep you in the dark. I can see why there would be a lack of trust from both sides. What I'm trying to say is, divorce will more than likely be a poor choice for you and your family. Fight for them, believe in yourself and your faith. He needs you also.

Oh, the legal stuff. I think the Seniors have done a pretty good job explaining that you will not survive on his support alone.

There isn't nearly enough information to make that call. We simply cannot know whether divorce would be the best or worst option.

With regards to the "men wired differently", I've seen that used far, far too many times as an excuse to behave badly and too many times it's a cop-out.

[i.m4Truth]

Justice,

Many (vast majority) would say you have a pretty nice ride.

Yes, I know, and it is because of that sad factor along with many others similar to it that I often struggle with feeling my situation is pretty hopeless. (Not surprisingly, this is, in fact, the perspective also of my husband). While it may be true that a few stay-at-home-moms give a negative stereo type to the rest of us by neglecting their children and sitting around eating bon bons and watching soap operas and game shows all day, the vast majority take the job very seriously -- being highly responsible, selfless, hard-working women seeking to do their husbands' and family good. The many tasks we perform and hats we wear often go unnoticed and unappreciated. It is a thankless job. And add to the normal responsibilities of homemaking the additional task of home-educating, making sure the children get a well-rounded, solid education -- this is no simple undertaking. It requires much sacrifice, time, energy, evaluating, patience, instruction, critical decision-making, facilitating, etc. etc.... So, hopefully, when considering this in combination with the calloused and manipulative treatment I am receiving from my husband, you might change your perspective of the "easy ride."

Maybe he has sensed something that has him feeling a bit unappreciated, abandoned, or is untrusting of you. Remember, he is not wired to think like you.

Does the difference in our wiring excuse destructive choices being made against me and our marriage? Marriage counseling would give him the opportunity to flesh out his personal feelings and get a third party's perspective as to whether or not there is any valid basis for them, but he is unwilling to have such a discussion/evaluation.... He has closed the door on this process.

While we obviously share a difference in opinion on this, Justice, know that I appreciate your input and dialogue.


Dogmatique, I also appreciate your statement recognizing that it is best to reserve conclusions until all facts are known.


Still waiting for help in understanding better the term "constructive abandonment" and also on how judges determine what are "indignities." (see former post made 06-12 at 8:39).

Thanks much.

[Justice???]

There isn't nearly enough information to make that call. We simply cannot know whether divorce would be the best or worst option.

She has defined her acceptance and willingness to live her faith, not just talk it. Something I find very commendable. By that standard, a divorce initiated by her, is not a good option for her. I too, would like to see them reconcile. Her faith teaches she will never be given more than she can handle and not to lean on her own understanding.

"men wired differently", I've seen that used far, far too many times as an excuse

I would whole heartedly agree. However, it is still factual. There is never an excuse for behaving badly.

The many tasks we perform and hats we wear often go unnoticed and unappreciated. It is a thankless job.

He's probably thinking the same thing. But please remember, that many (most) parents do these many tasks while holding down a full time job to support themselves.

I hope this will help ---- I have not seen one positive thing said about him in your posts. I bet there are some, probably many. Don't get caught in the rut of dwelling only on the negatives. Don't you think he has already sensed that? Bitterness is the poison you give yourself, hoping the other person will get sick. Don't think that he is off the hook for his bad behavior. But, I would bet his posts would look similar to yours.

I'm sure he can use a tune-up (can't we all). I hope he can man-up and get back in counseling for his family. Fight for your family and find the man you fell in Love with and invested your life with. Save your marriage and family, you will receive THANKS for a lifetime. Trust in you and your faith. Please do not fear your trust. You seem to be a very good person, finish your journey and stay strong for your family. Your situation is not hopeless, just challenging.