$12 Felony shoplifting?

[Snowmon]

What is the name of your state? Indiana

So I have this friend (I know, I know, but seriously) who went to a department store to return to exchange (3) $4 bras she bought another time. Basically, she did not have the receipt and decided NOT to try to return them. When leaving the store, she was attacked by a large man in the parking lot.

When she is on the ground bleeding, with a knee in her back, she then finds out this guy claims to be store security. No ID though...

So, I ended up being called to get my friend out of jail, hence my interest in the case. I called the jail, WHAT!? $1000 dollars cash or $850 for a bail bondsman!???!

What kind of proof is needed to convict my friend? It looks like its gonna be what he says vs. what she says. How is it she was charged, by this woman beater security guard nonetheless, with a felony for $12 worth of stuff?

This jerk now has me involved to the tune of ~1000 instead of 10%.

[racer72]

Spend more money and hire your friend a good attorney. That is about the lamest story I have read in these forums in a long time.

[CavemanLawyer]

How do you know this is a felony? With a bond of only $1000 it sounds much more likely that this is a misdemeanor.

If it is a felony it could be because she is charged with some form of robbery if she fought back against the security officer or if she had a weapon on her possession. If this is the case than it doesn't matter what the value of the goods stolen is.

Shop owners have the authority to detain people if they have a reasonable belief that they have stolen their property, so the person doesn't need to be in uniform or identify themselves. It could have been the checkout lady that grabbed her and that would have been ok.

If she truly bought these bras at an earlier date than she can maybe find those receipts after all or she can have the store check their computers for a record of the purchase.

[HomeGuru]

Originally Posted by Snowmon

What is the name of your state? Indiana

So I have this friend (I know, I know, but seriously) who went to a department store to return to exchange (3) $4 bras she bought another time. Basically, she did not have the receipt and decided NOT to try to return them. When leaving the store, she was attacked by a large man in the parking lot.

When she is on the ground bleeding, with a knee in her back, she then finds out this guy claims to be store security. No ID though...

So, I ended up being called to get my friend out of jail, hence my interest in the case. I called the jail, WHAT!? $1000 dollars cash or $850 for a bail bondsman!???!

What kind of proof is needed to convict my friend? It looks like its gonna be what he says vs. what she says. How is it she was charged, by this woman beater security guard nonetheless, with a felony for $12 worth of stuff?

This jerk now has me involved to the tune of ~1000 instead of 10%.

**A: souds like you do not have your facts straight.

[Snowmon]

The citation or whatever for her arrest said class D felony which is why the bail was so high. I just spoke with her actually. She talked to a lawyer briefly who said its very common for the store to charge people this way. The first court date will decide what the "official" charges will be.

Did she fight back? Maybe a little at first, (honestly I don't know) but a 5' 2" 120lb woman should have every right to do so when attacked by an unidentified 300lb man in a dark parking lot. A simple "Ma'am, store security" could have easily prevented that.

[Happy Trails]

Value of the stolen merchandise only matters if it is over $100,000.

IC 35-43-4-2

Theft; receiving stolen property
Sec. 2. (a) A person who knowingly or intentionally exerts unauthorized control over property of another person, with intent to deprive the other person of any part of its value or use, commits theft, a Class D felony. However, the offense is a Class C felony if the fair market value of the property is at least one hundred thousand dollars ($100,000).

(b) A person who knowingly or intentionally receives, retains, or disposes of the property of another person that has been the subject of theft commits receiving stolen property, a Class D felony. However, the offense is a Class C felony if the fair market value of the property is at least one hundred thousand dollars ($100,000).
------------------------------

She should get an attorney and see if it is possibly to have the charge reduced to "conversion" (which would be a class A misdemeanor.)

[Snowmon]

"Shop owners have the authority to detain people if they have a reasonable belief that they have stolen their property, so the person doesn't need to be in uniform or identify themselves. It could have been the checkout lady that grabbed her and that would have been ok."


So does this mean I can park my company car next to this security guards' sometime, wait for him to walk past it, then beat his fat a55, and tell the cops I thought he stole something?

RE: IC 35-43-4-2... Thats pretty lame. No difference between $99,000 and 10 bucks?

[CdwJava]

Originally Posted by Snowmon

So does this mean I can park my company car next to this security guards' sometime, wait for him to walk past it, then beat his fat a55, and tell the cops I thought he stole something?

Nope. That would be a crime because you know that he did NOT steal anything.

Besides, YOU were not there, were you? YOU do not know WHAT happened. The story you have gotten is likely tempered to elicit the desired response ... pity, anger, and a source of bail money. Would you have bailed her out if her story had included elements that said she did, indeed, go in intending to commit fraud and then chickened out, or that she tried to run or fight with the loss prevention personnel? Had THAT been the story, would you have been so sympathetic and willing to toss your money away to help her?

It may be a bad arrest, and the loss prevention person may be out of line, but you can't know that. Not yet, anyway.

RE: IC 35-43-4-2... Thats pretty lame. No difference between $99,000 and 10 bucks?

Yeah - one is a class D felony, the other is a class C. Apparently what she did was only a class D felony.

She might also have been charged with burglary.

Can you obtain the specific code sections she has been charged with?

And, help her contact an attorney if you want to help her out.

- Carl

[Snowmon]

"Nope. That would be a crime because you know that he did NOT steal anything."

I understand that, but wouldn't it have to be proven then?

I'm not completely convinced that she didn't do it at this point. Like you said Carl, the story I got is likely not the complete truth. I have however seen her cuts, bruises, and can't possibly imagine how this girl, who is legally partially disabled do to spinal nerve damage, could have been enough of a threat to warrant such treatment.

[CdwJava]

Originally Posted by Snowmon

"Nope. That would be a crime because you know that he did NOT steal anything."

I understand that, but wouldn't it have to be proven then?

How would you prove that he stole something when you simply parked your car next to his?

You have to be reasonable. making stuff up would only get you charged with all kids of crimes.

I'm not completely convinced that she didn't do it at this point. Like you said Carl, the story I got is likely not the complete truth. I have however seen her cuts, bruises, and can't possibly imagine how this girl, who is legally partially disabled do to spinal nerve damage, could have been enough of a threat to warrant such treatment.

It's possible that the LP person over-reacted ... on the other hand, it's also possible that she struggled and had to be detained on the ground to avoid any further injury to herself or the LP officer.

Keep in mind that he is not getting paid to be a punching bag. I've had to toss teenage girls half my weight onto the ground before ... sometimes tiny things can put up a heck of a scrap!

- Carl

[Snowmon]

How would I prove it? Well, I could plant something on him... That would make the case no different than the one I'm talking about. As far as I know, there is no proof of anything except she had bras with her. So if he doesn't have her on tape stealing, which she swares is absolutely impossible, it comes down to he says, she says.

Now, I'm not really going to do anything, but I don't see what the difference would be. He's a renta cop and I'm a business man maybe? Does that somehow make this HS dropout more credible than me?

[Snowmon]

And as I mentioned before. YES she probably did struggle a little. She thought she was getting car jacked, raped or worse by some unidentified assailant. What if she had a concealed weapons permit and shot him in the head?

[enjay]

I just want to know where you can get a $4.00 bra. That's cheap!!!

[garrula lingua]

Originally Posted by enjay

I just want to know where you can get a $4.00 bra. That's cheap!!!

Blue light specials

[CdwJava]

Originally Posted by Snowmon

How would I prove it? Well, I could plant something on him...

Yeah ... good luck with that.

You just HAPPENED to be in the parking lot, parked next to his car, and when he came out he just HAPPENED to steal something form you so you thumped him rather than detaining him for the cops.

You really think that would work for you?

As far as I know, there is no proof of anything except she had bras with her.

That's because that's all you know ... well, that' all she has told you.

The law allows people to be detained for reasonable suspicion - that means, a reasonable belief that the person has committed some kind of offense. It does not require absolute certainty.

So if he doesn't have her on tape stealing, which she swares is absolutely impossible, it comes down to he says, she says.

Possibly. Unless they have some other evidence.

It is not uncommon fr people who steal things one day to come back another day attempting to obtain a refund. It could be that a clerk recalls her bailing out the door with the bras a few days earlier and then recognized her when she came to the return desk.

It's very unusual for someone to buy four bras and then return them ... it arouses the curiosity.

But, that is a matter for the DA and then a court to decide. If the DA feels there is insufficient evidence to pursue the matter, then there will be no case.

Now, I'm not really going to do anything, but I don't see what the difference would be.

The difference is that a detention based on a reasonable belief is grounded in the law and offers the person doing the detention whatever latitude is permitted by state law. What YOU articulated was laying in wait to frame someone to use as an excuse to beat them up ... likely a series of felonies.

He's a renta cop and I'm a business man maybe? Does that somehow make this HS dropout more credible than me?

How do you know he's a high school dropout? That's a bit presumptuous, isn't it?

Whether he is credible or not will depend on what comes out in court. If he tackled her for no real reason other than she was carrying four bras and she really did nothing to him, then she can hire an attorney and sue him and the store. But, I suspect that is NOT what happened.

- Carl