2 judges cant answer- can you?

[daryn1]

What is the name of your state? VA.

What is the name of your state? -- VA.

As of now 2 - JUDGES and numerous Lawyers cannot answer this...
I will be brief:
I'm a small brick contractor - Licensed & insured.
Got $9000.00 up-front of a $21,000 job. Leaveing a balance of $12,800.00 remaining to be paid for job.
Had ?90%? of job complete. Ask for a progress draw. (this was discussed & agreed to at start) Was told no more money till job complete. I told client I would have to go do another job to get a cash flow, then come back and finish. Had 4 men working and needing pay.

((Had used the $9000 up on buying (his)material and payroll for 2 weeks. I dug footings, I drew up the working plans, he had none! he contacted me in Jan. and job started end of april. brick were a challange to match- He picked a brick that was no match. I tried to tell him they were not gonna match before I placed the order, but he would not listen. When 4000 showed up at job- he said"youre not gonna lay them on my house" I made him pay for second load. First load (( minus 700)) were picked up and Refund was sent to me b/c they were on my acct. I used the 700 in unexposed areas- saving matching brick b/c they were in short supply.
After telling him I was gonna do another job (i needed cash)
He told me we were finished ( if I left his job don't come back)! Then said " when will you have your equipment off my Property!!!
I loaded it up -- THEN I pushed over a short wall we just finished laying, -16in. height- 14ft. lenght, 105 brick Total - Mortar was still wet and brick were solids- None broke & very re-useable. we had laid about 3000 ih 3 days. Receipts for all other material and 700 brick are in my name - I dug and poured concrete footing's.
Police were called - officer said in the eyes of the law I had NOT commited any offense and no warrant would be issued - told client it would be civil.
Client (5-days) later - took a pic to magistriate and told him it was over $1000 damage (very untrue- about $300 labor and material Officer then had to sign a felony
Monumental -destruction of property- belonging to client. I turned myself in.
Had the preliminary last week - Was certified to Grand Jury....!
I represented myself

My Question is -- (It Was MY MATERIAL - & MY LABOR) that WAS MY DEFENSE-
I ASK THE (judge) --- AT WHAT POINT DID CLIENT ESTABLISH POSSISION -- OF MY PROPERTY? HE DIDN'T PAY ME FOR THE JOB OR --any SPECIFIC PERFORMANCE. HOW COULD HE GET WARRANT? .
JUDGE DIDN'T KNOW NOR DID THE COMMONWEALTH ATT.
If you were having a brick patio installed at YOUR home-- at what point does my property ((the labor, brick, mortar, etc. become your property??
Brick were not ( a permanently attached fixture)
Thanks


.What is the name of your state?

[tranquility]

Interesting. I think the problem should be civil rather than criminal as well, but I haven't looked for any cases either. If I were to take your side, I'd use the same argument. I'd also argue the value of the property.

If I were to take the other side I'd say that once it was in the wall, you lost all but lien rights. However, because you required he pay for a second load of bricks, the property was his from the start. But, we're not talking about bricks, but bricks in a wall. I don't see a reason why it is different between wet and dry or permanent, I mean, the wall was not yours. If I walked by and did the same thing, the result wouldn't be any different--would it? Just like writing in wet cement, it does seem like a vandalism.

Get an attorney, put a contractor's lien on the house and try to make a deal with the landowner. If he becomes less enthusiastic, the commonwealth may become less enthusiastic. See someone about your impulse control problem. That moment of revenge is going to cost you a lot of money.

[gawm]

Not the best way to conduct business, is it?

[Bretagne]

I can not stress enough how important this is: YOU NEED A LAWYER Don't even think about trying to maybe represent yourself. You will go down hard. You won't get any evidence in and you won't be able to keep inadmissable evidence out. You won't get your witnesses on the stand and you won't win a motion to dismiss. You will be all pissed off at trial and the fact finder will see that and find you guilty. You will go down with a Felony conviction and forget about having any success with an "appeal".

As a businessman in the trade industry you cannot afford to go down for a felony. And I don't want to hear "I can't afford a lawyer." Sell everything you own and borrow the rest if necessary.

That judge doesn't have to answer your questions, nor does the prosecutor. They know the answer, or at least they know how to figure it out. But you don't. So you need a lawyer to figure it out for you.

Not my jurisdiction--if it were I'd find the answer for you. But really the only answer you need right now is HIRE A LAWYER. For god's sake, don't rely on some crap you find on the internet.

Good luck.

[fairisfair]

Originally Posted by Bretagne

I can not stress enough how important this is: YOU NEED A LAWYER Don't even think about trying to maybe represent yourself. You will go down hard. You won't get any evidence in and you won't be able to keep inadmissable evidence out. You won't get your witnesses on the stand and you won't win a motion to dismiss. You will be all pissed off at trial and the fact finder will see that and find you guilty. You will go down with a Felony conviction and forget about having any success with an "appeal".

As a businessman in the trade industry you cannot afford to go down for a felony. And I don't want to hear "I can't afford a lawyer." Sell everything you own and borrow the rest if necessary.

That judge doesn't have to answer your questions, nor does the prosecutor. They know the answer, or at least they know how to figure it out. But you don't. So you need a lawyer to figure it out for you.

Not my jurisdiction--if it were I'd find the answer for you. But really the only answer you need right now is HIRE A LAWYER. For god's sake, don't rely on some crap you find on the internet.
Good luck.

ESPECIALLY crap like this. You should have left it at, you need to hire a lawyer.

[daryn1]

I DO thank you all -- for replying to my post.
But I can see that it is no answer to my question!
Tranquility.... He paid for 2nd load of brick (3200) b/c he wouldnt let me order a replacement that WOULD match. I paid for 800 block - 50 bgs mortar-8tons sand-backhoe - 5yds concrete-$1400.00 worth of limestone - 32 tons Stone and ALL the labor. Diging and pouring the footings- laying the cmu- It was my responsablity for laying a very complicated job. It wasnt no prob thou. I take great pride in my work. Have the utmost respect from my clients. I design and construct very unique projects, for highend clients. I have a great reputation for my work ethics and morals. Anyway.... if you walked by and knocked it down, you'ld go to jail.YOU have no claim to project.Also for it to be classified as real property - it has to be PERMENTLY ATTACHED to his REAL estate.IT was not. Leaves us with PERSONAL property... I have conceeded to 3200 brick being his, minus the $500.00 it cost ME for pick up and restocking of the 1st load. Its no need to waste tour time looking for existing cases... there are NONE!! I also am looking into how a warrant was... even issued. He had to tell or make the magistrate think I had been paid for work and bailed with the money as- in deserting his job. I do believe that is why there are no cases like this. If there is no question,How can it be an answer.I also filed warrant in debt on him when this all started on advice from an atty. You see his law firm with a judge and former commonwealth atty as partners - cannot answer that question. And with ALL the ppl on this site - I only get 4 responses and of them - it seems to me - just wanted to say something about my mental health. You about impulse behavior and treatment lmao. I can tell you that
Its not my mental health I was inquireing about here,I do that on another board. Lke I said.... there is NO answer. John locke is the closest I've come yet and he was born in 1622.Its like this: WHO owns the fish in the ocean**************. yep thats right -NO one, but - when I catch 1 it is MY property and-- If you want to get my property and have it for super.... yep - you got to pay me-- for it was my labor in catching that I established ownership.. LABOR counts for 99% as to ownership - untill a consideration is giving for the ownership. also the 9000.00 up front is what bought the materials and I do have invoices to back that. Again thanks for you alls opinions and I think it's a coup;e of YOU guys that need to evaluate your own little quirks with regards to patience and impulses.


What is the name of your state? -- VA.

As of now 2 - JUDGES and numerous Lawyers cannot answer this...
I will be brief:
I'm a small brick contractor - Licensed & insured.
Got $9000.00 up-front of a $21,000 job. Leaveing a balance of $12,800.00 remaining to be paid for job.
Had ?90%? of job complete. Ask for a progress draw. (this was discussed & agreed to at start) Was told no more money till job complete. I told client I would have to go do another job to get a cash flow, then come back and finish. Had 4 men working and needing pay.

((Had used the $9000 up on buying (his)material and payroll for 2 weeks. I dug footings, I drew up the working plans, he had none! he contacted me in Jan. and job started end of april. brick were a challange to match- He picked a brick that was no match. I tried to tell him they were not gonna match before I placed the order, but he would not listen. When 4000 showed up at job- he said"youre not gonna lay them on my house" I made him pay for second load. First load (( minus 700)) were picked up and Refund was sent to me b/c they were on my acct. I used the 700 in unexposed areas- saving matching brick b/c they were in short supply.
After telling him I was gonna do another job (i needed cash)
He told me we were finished ( if I left his job don't come back)! Then said " when will you have your equipment off my Property!!!
I loaded it up -- THEN I pushed over a short wall we just finished laying, -16in. height- 14ft. lenght, 105 brick Total - Mortar was still wet and brick were solids- None broke & very re-useable. we had laid about 3000 ih 3 days. Receipts for all other material and 700 brick are in my name - I dug and poured concrete footing's.
Police were called - officer said in the eyes of the law I had NOT commited any offense and no warrant would be issued - told client it would be civil.
Client (5-days) later - took a pic to magistriate and told him it was over $1000 damage (very untrue- about $300 labor and material Officer then had to sign a felony
Monumental -destruction of property- belonging to client. I turned myself in.
Had the preliminary last week - Was certified to Grand Jury....!
I represented myself

My Question is -- (It Was MY MATERIAL - & MY LABOR) that WAS MY DEFENSE-
I ASK THE (judge) --- AT WHAT POINT DID CLIENT ESTABLISH POSSISION -- OF MY PROPERTY? HE DIDN'T PAY ME FOR THE JOB OR --any SPECIFIC PERFORMANCE. HOW COULD HE GET WARRANT? .
JUDGE DIDN'T KNOW NOR DID THE COMMONWEALTH ATT.
If you were having a brick patio installed at YOUR home-- at what point does my property ((the labor, brick, mortar, etc. become your property??
Brick were not ( a permanently attached fixture)
Thanks


.What is the name of your state?[/quote]

[garrula lingua]

I have seen a similar case, and he was convicted of vandalism.

You say the homeowner told you to pack up your stuff and leave ?
Maybe your lawyer can convince the jury that you were simply 'packing up' (repossessing) your bricks (reusable).

Get a lawyer, right away - a good, criminal defense lawyer.

Most states allow for a 'civil compromise' in cases which border between civil & criminal & don't effect the 'public safety'.

I agree with Tranq's advice:

Get an attorney, put a contractor's lien on the house and try to make a deal with the landowner. If he becomes less enthusiastic, the commonwealth may become less enthusiastic. See someone about your impulse control problem. That moment of revenge is going to cost you a lot of money.

[daryn1]

Thanks Garrula... My only chance is being able to prove it was my property. The police officer is with me. BUT still I TOLD EXACTLY what happen, as I said about morals and ethics -I dont lie either. I could have said the work was out of level or out of plumb,so I took it down- BUT I didnt. That was my property and still is as far as that goes.I havd been told this case may set a precedent
And again.... If he lied to magistrite to get warrant it's on him. PLUS I can bring former bad acts up in my civil- he has a history of letting ppl get almost completed with work -then run them off without pay- Hes a real piece of work. THanks for advice BUT I am still in search on that answer.
I just now looked up Property in websters dictionary--
"Any object of value owned OR LAWFULLY acquired". I Lawfully acquired the material. and it was my labor that brought it into existance.( Intellectual property??)

[justalayman]

from you very first post:

Brick were not ( a permanently attached fixture)

How do you justify that statement. Once the bricks are laid, they are a wall (which is apparently on a footer even) so they are then part of the property and permanently affixed to the property.

You suggestion of "it was out of plumb" wouldn;t hold up either due to the timing of the entire incident.

Additionally, unless you stayed to clean the brick, you caused additional work for somebody to clean the soon to be set mortar from the brick. The "they weren't damaged statement is" irrelevant and wrong.

Hes a real piece of work

apparently so are you. If you were aware of how he dealt with contractors it makes that point no longer relevant since you were aware of that and still decided to work for him. It also does not affect the situation at hand in any manner.

Go and kiss up with the guy and try to get the criminal stuff dropped. It isn;t worth the possibility of having that on your record. You then need to settle the civil stuff....well... civilly.

[daryn1]

Curt and layman I understand your points.
And I’m not just looking for someone to agree with me!
I have neaver denied pushing them over. And I also know
ignorance is not an excuse for breaking a law. I did not find out about his past
till afterwards.( Former Bad Acts) can be brought up but thats more for civil..About me
being a piece of work.. Im far from that. I do not make excuses
or run from responsibilty. I only want to find out when my property
became his, thats all. If I had gotten paid it would be different. and AGAIN it was not a
permanent , attached fixture to his real estate or dwelling as to cause damage to said
.when
and if removed. The footing I paid for that too. The WALL took my labor and my
material to come to existance I agree mortar had to be knocked off of the brick
before being relayed , which they were. But again.. I paid for 700 of them
and this wall was only 16 inches high. and 12 feet long. Which I know the height etc.
dosen’t matter. From the lawyers I’ve talked with 2 judges and 1 commonwealth atty.
about this - it has all to do about him NOT letting me finish and wet wall.. 4 or 5 days
and I would have walked away with $12,800.00. He saved about $10,000.00 by
having someone else finish. I had 150 brick and about 500 sq.ft of pavers left. to
install. ALL the HEAD work (layout) was finished. This also wasn,t a square.
Many measurement that had to be figured from the start so it would be right at the top.
It was all cut up.
Anyway.... If you could just tell me.where you read about the property - when
he established ownership- Like the 9 grand .. that transfered from him to me
for payment --- not for material. That was part of my payment. That point
has been established. Look I’m not trying to get anything but what was promised.
In my civil I even deducted the amount for the pavers I had not laid. I did charge for
setting up the points and laying it out. One last thing It cost me about $500.00 do build.
Labor and material. The police officer that investigated - said I broke no laws. HE went
to magistrate and said it was over thousand $ damage. That turned it into a felony.
He’s lied so much on written documents, grounds of defence, statements to magistrate,
statement to stateboard of contractors They’re ALL DIFFERENT. Also prelim he lied.
I been in biz 11 yrs. and I have great respect for my clients. So if you just tell me where
you read this I can stop looking.
Thanks

[justalayman]

and AGAIN it was not a
permanent , attached fixture to his real estate or dwelling as to cause damage to said
.when
and if removed.

I'm still trying to figure out how you claim it was not:

1. permanent
2. attached to his real estate

If it was built on a footer, it was built to be permanent. after all the footer is IN THE GROUND. I don't know too many brick walls that are built as temporary structures.

if it was IN THE GROUND, it was attached to his real estate. His real estate is everything within his property lines. That includes the house, the trees, the dirt,, etc.

So once you placed it in a permanent situation, it became his wall.


Since you are looking fro what to sue for, here is a possibility.


if you had a contract (which you did) to do this work, if he booted you off the job and refused to allow you to finish, you may be able to sue him for the profit you would have made on the job, not simply what it had cost you to that time. maybe that is still available to you. I don;t know how the immature actions would play into that.

The police officer that investigated - said I broke no laws.

Police are notorious for not knowing whether a law has been broken or not. They are not legislators, judges, or attorneys. They are pretty good at the common stuff like traffic violations and other things that are seen often but when it comes to a once in awhile situation, they look to the DA to determine what, if any law has been broken. It is not their job to know the laws as a DA or judge needs to.

There are hundreds of laws in any state, many which are rarely, if ever charged agqainst somebody. You cannot expect a policeman to be that versed in the laws to know all of them.

[daryn1]

[QUOTE
There are hundreds of laws in any state, many which are rarely, if ever charged agqainst somebody. You cannot expect a policeman to be that versed in the laws to know all of them.[/quote]

Thats what Im looking for, kinda. A defense with a rarely used law or code
I have a complete set of Law Books Dating from 1933 - 1937. I"M searching for something that can still be used.

Yes- about being booted off. It's like this:
Car taken to body shop
Body man puts on a fender,and dosen't
like the way it's attached or fit isn't
just right. So he takes it off, then goes
to lunch.
While hes gone, customer comes to get car after
seeing to fender on previously.
takes car home and calls police and charges
body man with destruction. If car was
not picked up, body man would have put
another fender on. Customer would not have
been charged for doing the job twice.
If this client had not booted me - brick would have been relayed and I would have had to bare the cost.
I do Thank you for your responses

[CdwJava]

Originally Posted by justalayman

Police are notorious for not knowing whether a law has been broken or not. They are not legislators, judges, or attorneys. They are pretty good at the common stuff like traffic violations and other things that are seen often but when it comes to a once in awhile situation, they look to the DA to determine what, if any law has been broken. It is not their job to know the laws as a DA or judge needs to.

There are hundreds of laws in any state, many which are rarely, if ever charged agqainst somebody. You cannot expect a policeman to be that versed in the laws to know all of them.

I wouldn't go so far as to say that the police are "notorious for not knowing whether a law has been broken or not." Most of us have found that when matters fall into the grey area between civil and criminal the DA will usually dismiss the matter as a civil issue. My DA probably wouldn't touch this with a ten-foot pole. Most DA's probably wouldn't. However, that doesn't mean that the police won't revisit the matter if some attorney approaches them with the clear details and some good case law on the matter.

- Carl

[daryn1]

Originally Posted by CdwJava

However, that doesn't mean that the police won't revisit the matter if some attorney approaches them with the clear details and some good case law on the matter.

- Carl

I never saw the police officer.Originaly, when he investigated
He phoned me at home and ask what happened. I told him the whole story (the truth) and ask him if a warrant was issued just call me and I'll turn myself in. He called back after he investigated and informed me it was civil. A week later he called and advised me client went to magistrate and got a felony warrant. Ask me did I still want to turn myself in, I said yes. I turned myself in right away and the magistrate released me on P.R. I didnt see officer till court day for prelim. B/c it was a felony, investigateing officer has to sign warrant- is what I was told

[CdwJava]

In some states a complaining party can swear out a warrant. My state is not one of those, so this process somewhat bewliders me and I am amazed that more people aren't sued for false arrest in states with this process. Whether the officer has to sign some portion of the warrant, I couldn't say. He might have to affirm that a report is on file and a crime has been reported, but if he did not seek the warrant then the liability is on the complaining party, I imagine.

- Carl