arrest, bail,dissmissed--domestic

[Gio]

What is the name of your state? CA, San Francisco.

The facts:

What is the name of your state? CA, San Francisco.

The facts:

With my wife and 3 year old daughter, eating. Wife is grumpy. She is under a lot of stress, supporting an extended family and mom with brain cancer. We start to argue about nutrition regarding our daughter. Wife starts to yell and insult, tells me to shut up, etc. I make my point calmly and refuse to "shut up' simply because she doesn't like the facts. I’m a teacher by profession and am used to dealing with tantrums---I remained calm but do not back down: I stated my case firmly and ask that she responds to the argument not the messenger. The details of the argument are not relevant but was right and she couldn’t' stand it, and used me to release her build up stress from her family.

This escalated into her throwing things, and yelling, trying to hit herself. Literally she threw herself on the floor and proceeded to bang her head against the floor. I stopped her from hurting herself. I noticed she already had a bump on her head from doing this. I held her hands by the wrist so that she could not hit any other things and hurt herself (including me). I told her to calm down, etc. At this point I was doing my best to call her down. She wanted me to leave. I refused and wanted her to calm down.

Her sister, who is mentally ill, heard the yelling earlier and took our 3 year old out of the kitchen. Later I found out she also called 911. When the cops showed up we were already calm and resolved. We both explained that no crimes were committed, i.e. no one hit the other and it was verbal in nature.
They made me wait outside. Then the police came down and put me under arrest and said I need to get beat up, etc. I reiterated that I did not break any laws. The cop asked, "how did she get the bump on her head, then?" I told the truth, it was self-inflicted.

Then at the police station I find out that we both got arrested. They charged us both with domestic violence. I had some marks on my neck from her pinching me and she had the bump on her head. That and her sister who saw me holding her hands (and who knows what she said--doesn’t speak English well), were enough for probable cause of a crime, I guess. The cop said that since no one is talking everyone is getting arrested (tried to get me to admit she attacked me, etc). I guess he thought we were really fighting but that we didn’t want to admit it.


This was Thursday night. Both of us were given bail amounts of $35,000 each. I posted bail for myself to take care of our child in the morning, and she waited for what was only another day before being released as well. Everything was dismissed at that time.

My questions:

I had to spend $3,700 ($2,000 of which I already paid to post bond and get out that morning). Since the case was dissmissed, and I have not yet paid for the rest of bail, do I have pay the rest since its now a rather moot issue? There no case. Or if I have to, is there some way to recover this loss?

Any recommendations about what I should do now? What legal avenues are available to me, if any, given my circumstance? Since I never broke any law, but suffered arrest, imprisonment and lost a lot of money, I feel violated and I am bitter about it. Also, the fact that the officer said I should bet beat up, and asked me if I ever got beat up, etc, I felt was unprofessional and a type of verbal assault.

I also don’t want this (my first arrest) to be on my record. Should I hire an attorney? Any feed back would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks,
Gio

 

[Kane]

I'm not from CA, but I can give you a few insights.

Domestic abuse is a big deal, and a highly politicized issue. Police have no way of knowing who's telling the truth when they arrive at the scene, and it's common for people to lie.

Some states have laws that require the police to make an arrest. I don't know whether CA is one of those states.

You wrote, "Both of us were given paid for $35,000 each." I'm not sure what that means. If you meant the bonds were set at 35k, that's a very high bond, at least compared to where I live.

You also wrote, "I had to spend $3,700 ($2,000 of which I already paid to post bond and get out a night sooner)."

If you paid that money to a bail bondsman, you're not getting it back. Bondsmen normally charge 10%, so I'm guessing that's what you did.

You also asked, "Since the case was dissmissed and I have not yet paid for the rest of bail, do I have to since its not rather moot?"

If you're asking about the rest of the 35K, no you don't have to pay it.

If you mean the bondsman charged $3700, you paid 2K, and promised to pay the rest when you got out - that would be between you and the bondsman.

There's nothing you can do now, and there are no legal avenues open to you. (Sorry.) Talk to a civil attorney if you're interested in suing the police, but I doubt you'll find any who will take your case, or tell you that you have one.

As far as your record is concerned, it will show that you were arrested, and that the charges were dismissed. It's not something that I would worry about, but if you are worried about it, I believe CA lets you get your record expunged (erased). Perhaps someone from CA can give you some better info about that.

 

[Gio]

domestic violence charge

Thanks for the response. Yes, Ca has a mandatory arrest law, as the police said. I guess since they didn't know who to arrest they arrested us both--even though we were both already amicable and were consistent in our stories that no crimes had occured.

Yes, the bail was set at 35k each. I paid 2k, and promised to pay the rest. However, I learned that the court dismissed the cases the next day. I'd rather not pay the rest of the money to the bail bondsman, unless I really have to. I seem to remember reading something about it being lowered if the case doestn last.

 

[CdwJava]

$35,000 is pretty typical for felony DV (PC 273.5). And while there is no mandated arrest for CA an arrest is strongly encouraged by statute, and most agencies have a policy of making an arrest if there is probable cause to do so.

Like kane said, the parties lie to us. And the fact that all is hunky-dory when we get there is irrelevant ... it was because officers (and the law) ignored the problem when things were nice that got us to this position of DV laws and encouraged arrests in the first place.

With 75% of victims recanting their staments within 48 hours, and even more deciding they do not want to cooperate before prelim, we often seek to make an arrest just to resolve the situation for the time being.

Plus, it starts a track record.

If no charges are ever filed, you can seek an attorney to help you expunge the arrest from your record. This is not easy ... and while it CAN be done on your own, it is best done with an attorney.

- Carl

 

[Gio]

expunge arrest records..

Thanks for your thoughts. Do you have any idea what is entailed in expunging the arrest record, and if I got an attorney to preform the task, how much money Im looking at spending?

I really resent the fact that although I committed no crime whatsoever, I was still arrested, spend the night in jail, my kid was left alone, and Im out thousands of dollars and counting. It seems that is the only crime here.

Don't get me wrong. I believe there is no excuse for domestic violence and those that engange in it need to be stopped. But, it seems that, at least from my experience, the police err on the side of making the arrest, which can (and did!) result in an injustice. Wife wants to sue, etc but I told her that is not worth the trouble.

 

[CdwJava]

Thanks for your thoughts. Do you have any idea what is entailed in expunging the arrest record, and if I got an attorney to preform the task, how much money Im looking at spending?

Here is a link to info from the CA courts:

http://www.courtinfo.ca.gov/selfhelp/other/crimlawclean.htm

I really resent the fact that although I committed no crime whatsoever, I was still arrested, spend the night in jail, my kid was left alone, and Im out thousands of dollars and counting. It seems that is the only crime here.

Not being prosecuted does not mean that you did not commit a crime. If you whacked your wife ... or just pushed her, you committed a crime. It may simply be that you were lucky enough not to get prosecuted for whatever reason. And you might STILL be prosecuted later. The DA may have simply decided not to pursue the matter right now ... or, perhaps they were not prepared at arraignment and thus you were released as no complaint had been received from the DA yet.

Without knowing the details there is no way to know whether you still face jeopardy or not.

But, it seems that, at least from my experience, the police err on the side of making the arrest, which can (and did!) result in an injustice. Wife wants to sue, etc but I told her that is not worth the trouble.

I guarantee a lawsuit would simply be a waste of your money. Unless there existed no probable cause whatsoever, then the case would be summarily dismissed.

Since state law encourages the arrest of the primar y aggressor, and many policies REQUIRE it, then the officers were acting within the scope of their duties pursuant to state law. And making an arrest with good probable cause is NOT actionable in CA.

By your own description of events, the police had good cause to arrest at least you ... and depending on what was said and seen, they had good cause to arrest both of you. If either of you had injuries or a complaint of pain, that is generally sufficient to support a felony arrest.

"Probable cause" only means that the officers had enough information to believe that a crime had been committed and that the person or people arrested had committed said crime. It does NOT require that a crime actually have been committed or that the subject(s) arrested actually committed the crime.

At this point there is likely little you can do save learn from the event and get into counseling before there is a repeat of this event.

Oh, and in CA it is also often considered child endangerment to fight in front of the children. It is very likely that a cross-report has been made to CPS as well.

- Carl

 

[Gio]

an injustice

"By your own description of events, the police had good cause to arrest at least you ..."

Is it a crime to intervene to and stop somone form hurting themselves or others, by just holding their hands and stopping them from hitting their head, telling them to calm down? Would that be cause for me to be arrested? That was all I did.


"If either of you had injuries or a complaint of pain, that is generally sufficient to support a felony arrest."

Yes, but even if the injuries sustained were self inflicted? So, say if I hit myself does my spouce become subject to felony arrest? Even if both parties state the cause of the injury as being self inflicted?

With this logic, if I had fallen down on my bike earlier in the day, I can still go to jail if a verbal argument occurs and the police show up. It doesnt matter that everyone says I fell down on the bike earlier, the evidence of injury is enough to warrent probably cause for a felony arrest? If this is all true then it sends a message: never call the police, unless you want to go to jail---becaues even if you didnt do anything wrong, the police will look for some excuse and use that to support their belief that a crime was committed.

This, it seems to me, is wrong.

Even though a lawsuit would probably not go anywhere, it might make my my wife and I feel better after the humiliation of this ordeal. But, first I want to get our records expunged.

 

[CdwJava]

Is it a crime to intervene to and stop somone form hurting themselves or others, by just holding their hands and stopping them from hitting their head, telling them to calm down? Would that be cause for me to be arrested? That was all I did.

It is not the job o fthe police to determine the truth of your story at the scene - that is up to a court. Obviously your wife had another interpretation of events at the scene and did not support your contention that she was beating herself up and you were holding her down.

I can tell you from personal experience that we hear THAT a lot as well.

The officers felt they had probable cause to make the arrest and they did so pursuant to state law and agency policy.

Yes, but even if the injuries sustained were self inflicted? So, say if I hit myself does my spouce become subject to felony arrest? Even if both parties state the cause of the injury as being self inflicted?

If both parties stated their respective injuries were self-inflicted they MIGHT avoid arrest. But since we hear that with some frequency, we usually err on the side of caution and make an arrest.

As previously stated, it is the job of a court to determine guilt or innocence - not the police.

With this logic, if I had fallen down on my bike earlier in the day, I can still go to jail if a verbal argument occurs and the police show up. It doesnt matter that everyone says I fell down on the bike earlier, the evidence of injury is enough to warrent probably cause for a felony arrest?

That's a silly analogy as the nature of the injury would be different. But, in theory, you could injure yourself and then blame your spouse. However, and earlier bike injury would not look like an injury just received in a fight with your spouse.

Even though a lawsuit would probably not go anywhere, it might make my my wife and I feel better after the humiliation of this ordeal. But, first I want to get our records expunged.

A lawsuit might cost you a lot of money including the city's attorney fees ... but, its your money.

- Carl

 

[innocent]

Correct

One lawyer said no matter what happen at the scene, some one has to go to jail the moment you call 911 and police arrive. PROBABLE CAUSE.

 

[CdwJava]

One lawyer said no matter what happen at the scene, some one has to go to jail the moment you call 911 and police arrive. PROBABLE CAUSE.

That's not quite true. It tends to be the case, but it does not always have to be so.

- Carl

 

[jlundquist1]

This escalated into her throwing things, and yelling, trying to hit herself. Literally she threw herself on the floor and proceeded to bang her head against the floor.

Sounds like if there's anyone to blame for this unfortunate series of events, it's not the police.

Wife wants to sue, etc but I told her that is not worth the trouble

Tell her if she hadn't thrown a fit none of this would've happened.

With this logic, if I had fallen down on my bike earlier in the day, I can still go to jail if a verbal argument occurs and the police show up. It doesnt matter that everyone says I fell down on the bike earlier, the evidence of injury is enough to warrent probably cause for a felony arrest? If this is all true then it sends a message: never call the police, unless you want to go to jail---becaues even if you didnt do anything wrong, the police will look for some excuse and use that to support their belief that a crime was committed.

No, it doesn't. But the verbal argument will add to the officers probable cause that an assault had occured. Typically the victim and/or the agressor DON'T call the police. It's usually the neighbors, children, etc. Probable cause doesn't mean you are guilty, that's what we have trials for. If you don't like the statute, blame your legislators.

I stated my case firmly and ask that she responds to the argument not the messenger

Good advice, apply it to this.

Even though a lawsuit would probably not go anywhere, it might make my my wife and I feel better after the humiliation of this ordeal.

It won't. It will cost you alot of money, and just think how great it will make the officers feel who were doing their jobs.

 

[garrula lingua]

Scheduled bail for Spousal Abuse PC 273.5 (felony or misdemeanor) is $50,000.

Sounds like your sister-in-law, who called the Police & saw you 'holding' your wife's wrists, may have given the cops a statement which fully supports the charge of spousal abuse (yes, even holding her wrists down would support the charge - any visible injury, even minor, will suffice).

If your sister-in-law was taking care of your daughter, why the hurry for you to bail out, when your wife remained in custody ? That was your choice.

You describe your spouse and your sister-in-law as being (somewhat) emotionally ill. Aren't you worried about the welfare of your 3 yr old around two ill people ?

Shouldn't you be taking care of your child and the emotional problems which brought you to this distressful point, instead of looking for a hopeless fight against the system which simply worked as it was intended to work (everyone calmed down & ea party was removed to safety until the facts could be determined).

I sincerely hope your household calms down; good luck.

 

[CdwJava]

Ditto.

Though, FYI to others, the bail amount sometimes does vary by county even with the uniform bail schedule. In my county bail for PC 273.5 is half the indicated amount ... I imagine it is lower in others as well. And it could even be higher in some others.

- Carl