Attorney's and ethics

Florida

Isnt it true that an attorney takes some kind of oath upon passing the bar exam that he/she will not defind some one that he thinks may be guilty?
Example, the attorney that defended Gotti. That guy knew that he was guilty on all the charges, but he still took his case to get paid.
Is that right? Can an attorney just take a case for money, without regards to morality?
If the attorney thinks that his client is guilty, can he still defend that person and try to get him off, and if so how is that attorney any better than the guilty party?

Lets hear what you guys have to say.

[seniorjudge]

Q: Isnt it true that an attorney takes some kind of oath upon passing the bar exam that he/she will not defind some one that he thinks may be guilty?

A: No. If lawyers represented only innocent people, then there would be very little work for lawyers.


Q: Is that right?

A: Yes. See the Sixth Amendment to the United States Constitution.


Q: Can an attorney just take a case for money, without regards to morality?

A: Yes; morality is the province of theologians, not lawyers.


Q: If the attorney thinks that his client is guilty, can he still defend that person and try to get him off....?

A: Yes.


Q: and if so how is that attorney any better than the guilty party?

A: Philosophical question; unanswerable.

[Kane]

Everybody has a right to an attorney, even guilty people.

Attorneys have no obligation to turn someone away because he's guilty. They do have an obligation to obtain the best result they can, whether he's guilty or not.

Yes, I too beleive that everyone deserves an attorney, but to get a guy off on a murder rap, is that right? If an attorney takes a case and KNOWS that the guy is guilty, what then? Lets play like Im an attorney, I have a client that I know for a fact is guilty of child molestation, but because he is paying me alot of money to defend him I am going to do the best I can to get him off. Now he's off and does it again. He comes back to me and I defend him again and get him off again. Am I not responsible for his attacks on his child victims? Or to get a theif off or a murderer**************..etc. I could swear that I heard somewhere that if an attorney beleives that his client is guilty, he has no choice but to remove himself from council. Unless of course he is merely trying to work out a sentence for his client.

The sixth amendment is this:
"In all criminal prosecutions, the accused shall enjoy the right to a speedy and public trial, by an impartial jury of the State and district wherein the crime shall have been committed, which district shall have been previously ascertained by law, and to be informed of the nature and cause of the accusation; to be confronted with the witnesses against him; to have compulsory process for obtaining witnesses in his favor, and to have the Assistance of Counsel for his defence."
But that doesnt go into ethics or the fact of rather or not an attorent can defend a client having established his guilt.

[abaga]

Originally Posted by Kane

Everybody has a right to an attorney, even guilty people.

Attorneys have no obligation to turn someone away because he's guilty. They do have an obligation to obtain the best result they can, whether he's guilty or not.

A cousin of mine, who is an attorney, said one thing, as a criminal defense attorney, he didn't want to know whether his client was innocent or guilty....He made it a point not to ask the question!

He now does Real Estate Law .....

[HomeGuru]

[quote=runninandrunnin]Florida

Isnt it true that an attorney takes some kind of oath upon passing the bar exam that he/she will not defind some one that he thinks may be guilty?


**A: yes, but defind the word guilty.

[BelizeBreeze]

Originally Posted by HomeGuru

**A: yes, but defind the word guilty.

Unable to pay

[garrula lingua]

The Prosecution has to prove the case against the accused (or, the burden of proof is on the prosecution).

Therefore, crim def atty, in any crim case, can hold the People to that standard : prove, by admissible evidence, that Def is guilty, beyond a reasonable doubt.

No matter how guilty, the Def has the right to take the case to trial.

If the atty KNOWS (because the Def told atty) that Def is guilty, that atty is somewhat limited in strategy: he can't suborn /participate in perjury.
Atty either can't put Def on the stand if atty knows Def will lie, or Def has to proceed in a narrative fashion on the stand.

Did the atty get the guilty guy off, or was the jury out to lunch/idiots ?
Was that a 'dream team' of attys or just a fantastically dumb/prejudiced jury ??
Weren't the Melendez bros (guilty as f) tried twice ?

Some crim def attys see themselves as 'Defenders of the Constitution" (true believers) and others only work for money.... both are acceptable standards to the State Bars that license us.

[Kane]

Originally Posted by runninandrunnin

Yes, I too beleive that everyone deserves an attorney, but to get a guy off on a murder rap, is that right? If an attorney takes a case and KNOWS that the guy is guilty, what then? Lets play like Im an attorney, I have a client that I know for a fact is guilty of child molestation, but because he is paying me alot of money to defend him I am going to do the best I can to get him off. Now he's off and does it again. He comes back to me and I defend him again and get him off again. Am I not responsible for his attacks on his child victims? Or to get a theif off or a murderer**************..etc. I could swear that I heard somewhere that if an attorney beleives that his client is guilty, he has no choice but to remove himself from council. Unless of course he is merely trying to work out a sentence for his client.

Let's start from the beginning. How do you KNOW that he's guilty?

Because he tells you?

True story -- A guy, "George," comes into a lawyer's office. He says he molested a child. Somebody else is about to go on trial for it, and he doesn't want an innocent man to pay for his crime. This is a new lawyer, btw, and be believes him. So the lawyer goes and talks to people.

It turns out George is a member of a small, devoted congregation, and the accused is the minister of the church. Neither the prosecutor nor the defense attorney want anything to do with him (George).

The minister gets convicted, and - eventually - George tells the lawyer God told him to take the fall, so the minister could continue to do God's work.

True story. And it's about the only time I know of someone came into a lawyer's office claiming to be a child molestor.

It just doesn't happen that way. (They may tell the police they did it, but they won't tell the lawyer that.)

99.9% of the time, they say they didn't do it. And it's the lawyer's job to assess the evidence, and to advise the client about whether to take it to trial or not. It's not the lawyer's job to convict the client, or to decide whether he's guilty. That's what judges and juries are for. Bottom line, you might think he's guilty (or not), but that's not your job. You're there to provide a defense. You don't KNOW that he's guilty (or not) unless you were there, in which case you're a witness, not the lawyer.

On a side note, the world is full of drunks, and addicts, and liars, and cheats. Crazy people, and deadbeats, and people who just can't get (or keep) their act together. People who can't stop drinking, or make it to their PO's office on time, or write checks that have some relation to what's actually in their accounts. And most of all, it's full of stupid people, who can't remember to do their drugs at home, instead of in public, for example.

But as murderers with bags of money claiming to be guilty, but demanding to get off... I've never seen it, and I'm not sure it exists.

_________________
Edit: But to answer the question directly, yes, you still have to defend him, to the best of your ability, even if you KNOW he's guilty. And it'd be a pretty crappy lawyer, who tried to dump a client, because he decided that he did it.

BB summed it up perfectly**************"unable to pay". I have slammed her in other posts, and I do so again. It speaks volumes about her, and others character. Guilt is decided upon ones ability to "buy" thier innocence. Forgive me if I've spelled that incorrectly. I posted this in not only this forum, but 15 other legal forums and the ending is always the same**************money=not guilty. Yes, there have been specific examples of stars going to jail, one of which is Martha Stewart. But, the strong fact remains that those with money have power, those with the power get off. Which brings up another debate, what would one do get gain power-----MONEY. Would one steal? Would one murder or abuse? All of the questions above are answered with an astounding "YES". Paradise is a parasite on the community, along with all others like her. She is so vein that she is done with this forum for a while because she cant have her signature line. JETX I beleive was to be banned for a post he put up about me. One which he insinuated that my father was a child molester, etc.
This forum, just like this world, is corrupt. There are those of you that answered my questions directly, and those that spoke of their true nature, namely JETX and Paradise. For those of you that answered directly, you have my thanks. I pose one last question to this forum, if one has money and money is power, what about those that dont have any money and therefore have to power. What is left for them?
Here in Florida I can speak of a specific case. A guy, "Bob" was put on trial for assault. He was too poor to afford a "good" attorney, so he was appointed legal council fee of charge. Bob went to trial and there was a mistrial because of a hung jury. It was later found that the only witness they had in the case refused to come back to Florida to testify. The prosecuter went to the defense atty and offered a plea bargain. The young Bob took the plea because this had already drug out over the course of almost two years, discovery, re scheduling, etc. He took 4 years deferred adjudication.
IT was later found that the defense attorney that he had struck a deal with the prosecutor to talk his client into this deal and to take the probation. When the was found out, the bar assosication was called and after a two year investigation the lawyer was de-barred. He is no longer allowed to practice law in the U.S., something I support. But I am powerless to do anything about the probation that Bob is on. I am unable to do anything to help any of those that I have started an investigation on. The lawyers are sometimes debarred, but most times only receive a slap on the wrists. The system we have is corrupt, the system we have is ruled by money and power. All those that contribute to it are just as guilty as those we send to trial. By that I mean exactly what I insinuated. Guilty until being proven innocent.
Go ahead, slam me. Put up ludicris posts that have nothing to do with what Im saying. Slam me for not using perfect grammer, or spelling. I care not, I am merely here to point out what so many of us have been after for so very long. To put an end to this system that we have. It will never happen, but still it is a fight worth fighting. I will continue to expose those who are guilty of being the judge and jury with such, and I will continue to expose attorney's and police officers that are guilty of what Im charging.

Now, Paradise, JETX and others. Do you not see the way you are living is wrong? Do all you attorney's out there not see that you are destroying peoples lives so that you can get ahead? What kind of society do we live in really? Is it truth justice and the american way, or is it is money, power and the lust for such?

Live well, for the time you have to do so. There are more like me. We aren't going anywhere. Phone lines are tapped, court conf. rooms are being bugged and email and cell phone conversations are being recorded. When we find evidince of wrong doing by those swarn to protect, we will strike again and again. There is a particular case that will be exposed in early January '06. My organization feels that it will definatly make head lines. A little hint, something about a leak of intelligence? I intend to use the posts of this forum and others to prove my point. I have an interview next week about my organization, and I will announce then my full intentions. I have 268 different audio recordings that I will submit as proof of corrunption at some of our HIGHEST levels of gov't.

I will post a link after the interview.

See you in the head lines.

By the way, JETX, good thinking to delete that posting. I didnt really think you would have the balls to leave it up!

BELIZE BREEZE'S NAME IS TO TAKE THE PLACE OF PARADISE. MY APOLOGIES, MY MISTAKE. MT POINT STILL HOLDS TRUE.

[Shay-Pari'e]

Originally Posted by runninandrunnin

paradise summed it up perfectly**************"unable to pay". I have slammed her in other posts, and I do so again. It speaks volumes about her, and others character. Guilt is decided upon ones ability to "buy" thier innocence. Forgive me if I've spelled that incorrectly. I posted this in not only this forum, but 15 other legal forums and the ending is always the same**************money=not guilty. Yes, there have been specific examples of stars going to jail, one of which is Martha Stewart. But, the strong fact remains that those with money have power, those with the power get off. Which brings up another debate, what would one do get gain power-----MONEY. Would one steal? Would one murder or abuse? All of the questions above are answered with an astounding "YES". Paradise is a parasite on the community, along with all others like her. She is so vein that she is done with this forum for a while because she cant have her signature line. JETX I beleive was to be banned for a post he put up about me. One which he insinuated that my father was a child molester, etc.
This forum, just like this world, is corrupt. There are those of you that answered my questions directly, and those that spoke of their true nature, namely JETX and Paradise. For those of you that answered directly, you have my thanks. I pose one last question to this forum, if one has money and money is power, what about those that dont have any money and therefore have to power. What is left for them?
Here in Florida I can speak of a specific case. A guy, "Bob" was put on trial for assault. He was too poor to afford a "good" attorney, so he was appointed legal council fee of charge. Bob went to trial and there was a mistrial because of a hung jury. It was later found that the only witness they had in the case refused to come back to Florida to testify. The prosecuter went to the defense atty and offered a plea bargain. The young Bob took the plea because this had already drug out over the course of almost two years, discovery, re scheduling, etc. He took 4 years deferred adjudication.
IT was later found that the defense attorney that he had struck a deal with the prosecutor to talk his client into this deal and to take the probation. When the was found out, the bar assosication was called and after a two year investigation the lawyer was de-barred. He is no longer allowed to practice law in the U.S., something I support. But I am powerless to do anything about the probation that Bob is on. I am unable to do anything to help any of those that I have started an investigation on. The lawyers are sometimes debarred, but most times only receive a slap on the wrists. The system we have is corrupt, the system we have is ruled by money and power. All those that contribute to it are just as guilty as those we send to trial. By that I mean exactly what I insinuated. Guilty until being proven innocent.
Go ahead, slam me. Put up ludicris posts that have nothing to do with what Im saying. Slam me for not using perfect grammer, or spelling. I care not, I am merely here to point out what so many of us have been after for so very long. To put an end to this system that we have. It will never happen, but still it is a fight worth fighting. I will continue to expose those who are guilty of being the judge and jury with such, and I will continue to expose attorney's and police officers that are guilty of what Im charging.

Now, Paradise, JETX and others. Do you not see the way you are living is wrong? Do all you attorney's out there not see that you are destroying peoples lives so that you can get ahead? What kind of society do we live in really? Is it truth justice and the american way, or is it is money, power and the lust for such?

Live well, for the time you have to do so. There are more like me. We aren't going anywhere. Phone lines are tapped, court conf. rooms are being bugged and email and cell phone conversations are being recorded. When we find evidince of wrong doing by those swarn to protect, we will strike again and again. There is a particular case that will be exposed in early January '06. My organization feels that it will definatly make head lines. A little hint, something about a leak of intelligence? I intend to use the posts of this forum and others to prove my point. I have an interview next week about my organization, and I will announce then my full intentions. I have 268 different audio recordings that I will submit as proof of corrunption at some of our HIGHEST levels of gov't.

I will post a link after the interview.

See you in the head lines.

By the way, JETX, good thinking to delete that posting. I didnt really think you would have the balls to leave it up!

UMM, What the hell are you on? I have not replied on this thread. I don't even know what the hell you are talking about, and frankly, I don't care.

No, it was another thread, but its all the same. Go back and re-read what you've previously posted in your previous threads. If you'd like I would be happy to point out exactly what Im talking about in relation to you.

What am I on? I dont touch that stuff, thank you.


Oh yeah, and Veronica- dont think I'd leave you out either. Just didnt think enough of you to mention your name. "old bag"

[seniorjudge]

Phone lines are tapped, court conf. rooms are being bugged and email and cell phone conversations are being recorded.


So y'all admit y'all are committing crimes?

[Shay-Pari'e]

Originally Posted by runninandrunnin

No, it was another thread, but its all the same. Go back and re-read what you've previously posted in your previous threads. If you'd like I would be happy to point out exactly what Im talking about in relation to you.

What am I on? I dont touch that stuff, thank you.


Oh yeah, and Veronica- dont think I'd leave you out either. Just didnt think enough of you to mention your name. "old bag"

(QUOTE)paradise summed it up perfectly**************"unable to pay".(QUOTE)

No, it is not all the same. You had the wrong person for the quote above, and I don't need to re-read anything, because,guess what? I think you are an idiot.

Nuff said.