Daughter caught shoplifting

[Humingbyrd]

What is the name of your state?What is the name of your state?
Michigan

My daughter was caught shoplifting from a Dept Store in our local mall. She is 18 however because the item was under $25.00 she was not arrested. She admitted that she shoplifted, returned the item and was banned from the mall. She also had a job at that mall and she felt that she should quit the job because she did not want to violate the order to not come into the mall. We just got a letter from the company stating that under Michigan law the company has the right to charge her up to 10 times the amount of the item stolen even if the item is recovered and unsellable. She told me that the item was in perfect condition when it was returned. They have threatened to take her to court if she does not pay the money. There was a phone number on the letter but after 10 days of steady calling I can only leave a messege and cannot talk to a real person. What can I do???

 

[I AM ALWAYS LIABLE]

What is the name of your state?What is the name of your state?
Michigan

My daughter was caught shoplifting from a Dept Store in our local mall. She is 18 however because the item was under $25.00 she was not arrested. She admitted that she shoplifted, returned the item and was banned from the mall. She also had a job at that mall and she felt that she should quit the job because she did not want to violate the order to not come into the mall. We just got a letter from the company stating that under Michigan law the company has the right to charge her up to 10 times the amount of the item stolen even if the item is recovered and unsellable. She told me that the item was in perfect condition when it was returned. They have threatened to take her to court if she does not pay the money. There was a phone number on the letter but after 10 days of steady calling I can only leave a messege and cannot talk to a real person. What can I do???

My response:

The company attorney won't take your call because they don't want to listen to #8393 whiney parent calling with some reason or excuse not to pay. Either the money is paid, or she pays the consequences. Accept it.

IAAL

 

[Humingbyrd]

I'm not a whiney parent, She has payed dearly already for her actions. I believe that kids should endure the backlash of their actions. I believe the company is unlawfully charging ANOTHER amount of money. The Michigan Law states that this amount can only be charged if the item is unsellable and that was not the case. All I was calling them about was to have someone tell me that the item either was or was not sellable after recovery. The fact that I cannot reach a human being has me believing that they are using this law to anyone that they can regardless of how it reads and using it to scare this kid into paying without question. What she did was wrong, no doubt about that and the consequences have been paid. The question is about the law, not can my daughter skate on these charges. I'm not trying to excuse what she did, but one illegal act does not excuse another illegal act. I didnt enter this forum to be called names I simply asked for help in understanding the law.

 

[I AM ALWAYS LIABLE]

I'm not a whiney parent

MY RESPONSE: Yes, you are.



She has payed dearly already for her actions.

MY RESPONSE: Perhaps, but she's not done "paying" yet. You'll find out, below.




I believe that kids should endure the backlash of their actions.

MY RESPONSE: News Flash - - She's not a "kid" anymore. She's an adult. And, the sooner you start treating her as such, the sooner she'll fit into decent society. By the way, she's not done with her "backlash." There's more to come, below - -





I believe the company is unlawfully charging ANOTHER amount of money.

MY RESPONSE: Oh, really? You "believe"? Where did you go to law school to have such a "belief"? You'll be reading the law, below.




The question is about the law, not can my daughter skate on these charges. I'm not trying to excuse what she did, one illegal act does not excuse another illegal act.

MY RESPONSE: The only "illegal act" that was perpetrated was the one by your daughter. Everyone else is following the law, including the store. Read below - - your daughter is about to be slammed by the law.

HERE'S THE LAW IN MICHIGAN​

Michigan Civil Code Sec. 2953.


(1) In addition to applicable penal sanctions, a person who commits an act for which he or she could be charged with retail fraud in the first, second, or third degree under sections 356c and 356d of the Michigan penal code, 1931 PA 328, MCL 750.356c and 750.356d, is liable to the merchant who is the victim of the act for the full retail price of unrecovered property or recovered property that is not in salable condition, and civil damages of 10 times the retail price of the property, but not less than $50.00 and not more than $200.00.

(2) The merchant who is the victim of retail fraud in the first, second, or third degree, or an agent of the merchant, may make a written demand for payment of the amount for which the person who committed the act is liable under subsection (1). Except for a sole proprietorship, a member of management, other than the initial detaining person, shall evaluate the validity of the accusation that the person committed the act and shall approve the accusation in writing before a written demand for payment is issued. The demand for payment may be delivered to the person from whom payment is demanded by first-class mail. The text of the written demand shall be as follows:
"We have cause to believe that on (date) you, or your minor child (child's name), committed retail fraud in the first, second, or third degree by (description of action and property involved) in our store or in its immediate vicinity.
State law authorizes us to demand in writing that you do all of the following, as applicable:
[ ] Return the property in salable condition or pay to us $ ______, which represents the full retail price or the remaining balance of the full retail price of the property.
[ ] Pay to us $ ______, which represents the full retail price of the recovered property that is not in salable condition.
[ ] Pay to us civil damages in an amount equal to 10 times the retail price of the property involved, but not less than $50.00 or more than $200.00, equaling a total amount of $ ______.
This notice is a formal demand for return of the property involved, if applicable, and the payment of the amounts indicated above, equaling a total amount of $ ______. If you return any unrecovered property and pay the amounts indicated above to us within 30 days after the date this notice was mailed, we will not take any further civil action against you.


You are not required to respond to this demand if you believe that you or your minor child are not guilty of committing retail fraud or if you choose not to respond. If you fail to comply with this demand, we will be authorized by state law to bring a civil action against you to determine your legal responsibility for the return of any unrecovered property and the payment of the amounts indicated above plus the cost of the action, including reasonable attorney fees.
These civil proceedings do not prevent criminal prosecution for the alleged act of retail fraud.".


(3) If the person to whom a written demand is made under subsection (2) complies with the written demand within 30 days after the date the written demand is mailed, that person shall incur no further civil liability to the merchant from the act of retail fraud.


(4) A person who commits an act described in subsection (1) and who fails to comply with a written demand under subsection (2) is liable to the merchant for the full retail price of the property, unless the property was recovered in salable condition, plus civil damages of 10 times the retail price of the property but not less than $50.00 or more than $200.00, and costs of the action, including reasonable attorney fees.


(5) If a civil action is filed pursuant to this section and before the trial of the action is commenced the person to whom a written demand was made under subsection (2) pays the merchant in cash the amount demanded, subsection (4) does not apply.


(6) An action under this section may be brought in the small claims division of the district court or in any other court of competent jurisdiction. If the amount demanded exceeds the jurisdiction of the small claims division, the action may still be brought in the small claims division, but the amount recovered shall not exceed the jurisdiction of the small claims division.


(7) A merchant may recover damages in an amount allowable under this section in a civil action in a court of competent jurisdiction against the parent or parents of an unemancipated minor who lives with his or her parent or parents and who commits an act described in subsection (1).


(8) A merchant may recover the amount for which a person is civilly liable under this section only if a formal police report is filed with a local law enforcement agency that has jurisdiction over the location where the violation took place, which report sets forth facts alleging that the person has committed retail fraud in the first, second, or third degree or violated a local ordinance substantially corresponding to section 218, 356, 356c, or 356d of the Michigan penal code, 1931 PA 328, MCL 750.218, 750.356, 750.356c, and 750.356d, regardless of the outcome of any criminal action.


(9) Notwithstanding any other provision of this section, a merchant shall not recover civil damages for an act of retail fraud in the first, second, or third degree with regard to a particular item of property if the merchant violated section 3 of 1976 PA 449, MCL 445.353, with regard to that item of property and the violation was not caused by the person who committed the act of retail fraud.


IAAL

 

[Humingbyrd]

Sorry to take up your time

well, your personal opinion is well noted and I'm sorry for taking up your time.
No I'm not a lawyer and no I didnt attend law school. That is why I began my sentence with "I believe". Looks like I'm wrong to believe.
Have a good day.

 

[stealth2]

She's 18 - why is Mommy making all the calls for her?

 

[I AM ALWAYS LIABLE]

well, your personal opinion is well noted and I'm sorry for taking up your time.
No I'm not a lawyer and no I didnt attend law school. That is why I began my sentence with "I believe". Looks like I'm wrong to believe.
Have a good day.

My response:

You're damn right you're "wrong to believe."

I'm sick and tired of thieves like your daughter. I don't want to pay for the resources it took to catch your daughter in the form of higher prices. So, either you or your daughter is going to pay that price. But, if you keep protecting her with your whiney, "motherly" protections, you're going to "whine" her right into court, with more implications and more costs.

She's an adult, goddamnit! Treat her as such!!

IAAL

 

[Humingbyrd]

People People please! I am not making calls for her to get her out of this. If she has to pay she has to pay. She is not a career thief. She tried it once. I simply wanted to understand the law. She made a mistake in judgement. She lost her job, she paid fines, she lost a great deal of freedom in our home.
Yes she is 18 and still in school. We have been seriously affected by cutbacks in both our jobs and didnt have the money to buy her a new bathing suit this summer. She didnt want to ask for the money. She made a bad call. She will never want to go through it again I'm sure of it. She learned a great deal from this and isnt that the idea in the first place, to learn from our mistakes? We are Law abiding people and teach honesty to our children. There's no need or productivity in cussing and demeaning us for simply asking to understand.

 

[I AM ALWAYS LIABLE]

"I simply wanted to understand the law."

My response:

What got me pissed off with you were two things:

1. You're making calls for your ADULT daughter, and because of your mistaken beliefs, your calls would have been "whiney". And more importantly,

2. You wrote a statement of FACT in your post when you said, "I believe the company is unlawfully charging ANOTHER amount of money" without ANY BASIS for that belief.

In other words, you were TRYING to teach US the law with your "belief." Don't make statements of FACT when you don't know the law. If you merely wanted to KNOW the law, you could have simply asked, "Is there a Civil law in Michigan allowing a company to charge up to 10 times . . . blah, blah, blah."

But no. I had to wade through your "beliefs". If you want to know the law, ask. Don't give us your views about the legality of an act.

IAAL

 

[Kane]

Hummingbird, you should read the statute IAAL quoted carefully, and try to ignore the rest of what he said. Or - better - give it to your daughter, since she's the one who needs to make the decision about what to do.

Based on the statute, though - and I'm not a lawyer in MI, so I can't say for sure - it looks like they may be just trying to scare her into paying $250. After all, they have nothing to lose by trying, except a postage stamp.

Or, she could just pay them the money they want, chalk it up to exerience, and go forth and shoplift no more.

What is the name of your state?What is the name of your state?
Michigan

My daughter was caught shoplifting from a Dept Store in our local mall. She is 18 however because the item was under $25.00 she was not arrested. She admitted that she shoplifted, returned the item and was banned from the mall. She also had a job at that mall and she felt that she should quit the job because she did not want to violate the order to not come into the mall. We just got a letter from the company stating that under Michigan law the company has the right to charge her up to 10 times the amount of the item stolen even if the item is recovered and unsellable. She told me that the item was in perfect condition when it was returned. They have threatened to take her to court if she does not pay the money. There was a phone number on the letter but after 10 days of steady calling I can only leave a messege and cannot talk to a real person. What can I do???