Daughter Patted Down During Traffic Stop

[littlebiddle]

What is the name of your state (only U.S. law)? INDIANA

My daughter was stopped for having a headlight out. She was leaving my house to go to her apartment. Ultimately she was given two warnings, but the traffic stop was quite involved. I wrote to the department for further enlightenment. I guess I am still confused about when a person can be searched.

I respect police officers. I live in a safe community and I appreciate what the police force does. I just find this to be a bit much. And according to my daughter, the officer stated it was a dog in training.

Here is the reply: (I redacted the names but other than that, it's word for word - I copied and pasted.)

I apologize that it took longer than I wanted to respond to your questions about your daughters traffic stop. But to answer your questions, here is what I found out about the traffic stop after checking with the officers supervisor and watching the traffic stop video. Officer XXXXX stopped your daughter on September 14, 2015 at about 00:30 hours. After watching the video, the officers appeared to follow standard protocols and the stop appeared to be within department policy as well as state and federal laws and seemed straight forward. Both your daughter and the officer communicated in a polite and professional manner during the traffic stop.

Officer XXXXX did stop your daughter for a headlight violation. She did not have her Indiana driver’s license (did have a paper receipt however) or the vehicle registration for the vehicle that she was driving. It apparently was the registration for another vehicle. The officer and supervisor also stated your daughter did appear physically shaking and very nervous, which is somewhat out of the ordinary for a routine traffic stop, but not unheard of during a traffic stop. However such behavior does raise the officers suspicions.

Officer XXXXX called K-9 Officer XXXXX over for a routine K-9 walk-around of the vehicle. This is routine and standard. Officer XXXXX asked your daughter to exit the vehicle, which is a normal procedure for officer safety reasons. As your daughter exited the vehicle she rolls up the windows, takes the keys, then locks the car door with the key when she gets out. Officer XXXXX's dog does indicate on the vehicle indicating that some drug/narcotic may be or have been in the vehicle. At this point the officers have probable cause to search the vehicle however the search doesn’t find anything.

Also to answer your question on the ”frisking” or pat down of your daughter, this was done by a female officer for officer safety and is normal in this type of investigation.​

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Is this all routine and normal? Being patted down is normal?

 

[TheGeekess]

Sounds like it. Let it go.

 

[littlebiddle]

Sounds like it. Let it go.

I am curious. What is the legal basis?

 

[CdwJava]

A pat-down, or "Terry frisk" is a common procedure for most people who are detained and in a position to potentially cause harm to an officer. The probable cause necessary to justify a Terry frisk is very, very minimal. It can be enough for a person to be acting nervous, putting hands in pockets, etc. - anything that might give an officer cause to be concerned for weapons. The pat-down is a search for weapons and should be no more intrusive than might be necessary for such. Most people who are asked to exit a car will be patted down.

Given the circumstances, your daughter is fortunate they took the time to summon a female officer to the scene as the law does NOT require such a search be conducted by an officer of the same gender.

If your daughter is somehow offended and she is an adult, she can complain to the agency about the actions of the officer(s). If she is a minor, you can complain. It sounds as if the agency's position is that this was standard operating procedure and not anything truly shocking.

 

[quincy]

What is the name of your state (only U.S. law)? INDIANA

My daughter was stopped for having a headlight out. ...

... Is this all routine and normal? Being patted down is normal?

How old is your daughter, littlebiddle?

Here are two links to cases on Indiana pat downs that might be of interest to you:

A.A. v. State of Indiana: http://www.in.gov/judiciary/opinions/pdf/04151505tac.pdf

From A.A.: "Numerous articulable facts and circumstances support a finding that Officer Slighton was acting on reasonable suspicion and not merely a hunch when he patted down A.A. ..."

State of Indiana v. Michael E. Cunningham: http://www.in.gov/judiciary/opinions/pdf/02271401mpb.pdf

From Cunningham: "... there is no evidence of hostility, aggressiveness, furtive movements ... There was not sufficient reasonable suspicion that Cunningham was armed and dangerous that would support a pat-down search in the absence of Cunningham's consent ... Although Officer Hammock was entitled to pull Cunningham over for having only one red tail lamp, the ensuing pat-down search of Cunningham violated the Fourth Amendment ..."

 

[littlebiddle]

How old is your daughter, littlebiddle?

Here are two links to cases on Indiana pat downs that might be of interest to you:

A.A. v. State of Indiana: http://www.in.gov/judiciary/opinions/pdf/04151505tac.pdf

State of Indiana v. Michael E. Cunningham: http://www.in.gov/judiciary/opinions/pdf/02271401mpb.pdf

I have read the first case and am getting ready to read the second one.

(As an aside, do you think they meant he was "fluttered"? Perhaps flustered. That just gave me a giggle!)

She is 22 years old. I am more bothered by this than she is - but it just puzzles me.

Let's play a little game of "Never Have I Ever" ... In this, the town in which we've lived for 20 years ... or in any other location) been asked to step outside my car during a traffic stop. Not even when I was going to pick up my son at his part time job (Dairy Queen! Yum!) and I actually sped up going through the roundabout because it's a kind of oblong roundabout and I like to drive fast around curves ... apparently I also crossed the center line coming out of my mini-van maneuver. I didn't even get a warning. But almost every kid my daughter's age who gets stopped for any reason is asked to step out of his or her car.

Okay, on to the next link. Thanks for the research!

 

[littlebiddle]

I have read the first case and am getting ready to read the second one.

(As an aside, do you think they meant he was "fluttered"? Perhaps flustered. That just gave me a giggle!)

She is 22 years old. I am more bothered by this than she is - but it just puzzles me.

Let's play a little game of "Never Have I Ever" ... In this, the town in which we've lived for 20 years ... or in any other location) been asked to step outside my car during a traffic stop. Not even when I was going to pick up my son at his part time job (Dairy Queen! Yum!) and I actually sped up going through the roundabout because it's a kind of oblong roundabout and I like to drive fast around curves ... apparently I also crossed the center line coming out of my mini-van maneuver. I didn't even get a warning. But almost every kid my daughter's age who gets stopped for any reason is asked to step out of his or her car.

Okay, on to the next link. Thanks for the research!

That was interesting. I think their basis for patting her down would be "The officer and supervisor also stated your daughter did appear physically shaking and very nervous, which is somewhat out of the ordinary for a routine traffic stop, but not unheard of during a traffic stop. However such behavior does raise the officers suspicions." And if they asked her for consent, I would consider her saying yes an acquiescence as well. Don't know if the officers would agree. But that is a fascinating read.

I was texting my daughter and I told her that the commanding officer noted that both she and the officer were polite. Her response was,
"I was respectful because I knew at that point it was to be totally ignorant or respect the job they believed they had to do."

She's growing up! She's learning!

Thanks for providing content that is thought provoking and informative.

And kind.

 

[quincy]

That was interesting. I think their basis for patting her down would be "The officer and supervisor also stated your daughter did appear physically shaking and very nervous, which is somewhat out of the ordinary for a routine traffic stop, but not unheard of during a traffic stop. However such behavior does raise the officers suspicions." And if they asked her for consent, I would consider her saying yes an acquiescence as well. Don't know if the officers would agree. But that is a fascinating read.

I was texting my daughter and I told her that the commanding officer noted that both she and the officer were polite. Her response was,
"I was respectful because I knew at that point it was to be totally ignorant or respect the job they believed they had to do."

She's growing up! She's learning!

Thanks for providing content that is thought provoking and informative.

And kind.

You're welcome, littlebiddle. I found the decisions, and the reasoning that led to the decisions, interesting.

I think you have good reason to be proud of the way your daughter handled herself during the traffic stop - and I am also impressed that the police department responded as it did to your request for more information.

 

[littlebiddle]

You're welcome, littlebiddle. I found the decisions, and the reasoning that led to the decisions, interesting.

I think you have good reason to be proud of the way your daughter handled herself during the traffic stop - and I am also impressed that the police department responded as it did to your request for more information.

We have a great police department - I'd even say impressive - it's just that sometimes they get a bit over-zealous. If there was no legal basis for a pat down, or if what they are doing is improper, they need to know - because you can only do better when you know better. The CO that responded said I could file a complaint and I told him I wasn't really interested in that, I was just trying to understand why it went all the way to a pat-down. Had they found drugs/narcotics in her car, then I could understand it.

 

[CdwJava]

Most pat-downs do not find a weapon. Some do. But, the alternative is to have nervous, jumpy, and maybe even trigger-happy cops - especially with all that is going on right now. A year ago I rarely unholstered my sidearm ... now, that's changed. I also do far more pat-downs on detainees than I did a year ago for the same reason.

 

[littlebiddle]

Most pat-downs do not find a weapon. Some do. But, the alternative is to have nervous, jumpy, and maybe even trigger-happy cops - especially with all that is going on right now. A year ago I rarely unholstered my sidearm ... now, that's changed. I also do far more pat-downs on detainees than I did a year ago for the same reason.

That makes sense. Putting it under that light, it provides a different perspective. Appreciate the thoughts!

 

[quincy]

We have a great police department - I'd even say impressive - it's just that sometimes they get a big over-zealous. If there was no legal basis for a pat down, or if what they are doing is improper, they need to know - because you can only do better when you know better. The CO that responded said I could file a complaint and I told him I wasn't really interested in that, I was just trying to understand why it went all the way to a pat-down. Had they found drugs/narcotics in her car, then I could understand it.

I cannot quite understand why there was a pat-down of your daughter based on what you have described, but I do not know enough to say that it was improper or that it was a violation of your daughter's rights.

That said, I agree that what occurred after your daughter's stop raises some questions. How far you and your daughter want to go in having the questions answered, though (e.g., seeing an attorney in your area for a personal review of the video), is something you and your daughter will have to decide together.

Good luck.

 

[CdwJava]

Well, the totality of the circumstances appear to have been sufficient to set off most officers' hink-o-meter. No license or registration, nervousness and shaking, and at night (though, driver's manner of dress, speech, appearance, time of night and exact location might play a part as well). Frankly, I'd probably be thinking dope, too. And, if a K-9 was available, and the time delay would not be such that it might fall outside of state and federal court cases for a detention, it would be a prudent thing to run the dog around the car.

Clearly, I don't know what the officer might have seen or heard. I don't think that it screams egregious wrongdoing even if unusual. But, if an attorney wants to review the situation and can see some form of significant lawsuit, so be it. Though, that doesn't seem to be what you are seeking here, anyway - simply clarification.

 

[littlebiddle]

Well, the totality of the circumstances appear to have been sufficient to set off most officers' hink-o-meter. No license or registration, nervousness and shaking, and at night (though, driver's manner of dress, speech, appearance, time of night and exact location might play a part as well). Frankly, I'd probably be thinking dope, too. And, if a K-9 was available, and the time delay would not be such that it might fall outside of state and federal court cases for a detention, it would be a prudent thing to run the dog around the car.

Clearly, I don't know what the officer might have seen or heard. I don't think that it screams egregious wrongdoing even if unusual. But, if an attorney wants to review the situation and can see some form of significant lawsuit, so be it. Though, that doesn't seem to be what you are seeking here, anyway - simply clarification.

My daughter was well-dressed, clean and properly groomed. It was about six blocks away from my house on a main street. While the community I live in is quite affluent, this is the considered (and is) the poor side of town.

She lost her actual license but went to the DMV for a replacement; in Indiana, they mail your new license to you and give you a paper copy in the interim. I cannot explain the registration, but the car is registered in her name and my name.

My main query is about the pat down. I am a strong believer in the fourth amendment and I am still having trouble with that part - whether or not they had the right to do it. I understand an officer needs to feel safe, but must also follow the law. A lot of officers get cast in a bad light when a few officers overstep their authority. That's not fair to anyone.

What differs in the CO's reply and my daughter's story [which I shared with him], is the canine officer stated specifically the dog was in training and asked her if he could 'walk the dog around to give him practice' and then when the dog alerted, demanded she tell him why the dog barked. She said she didn't know and then he raised his voice several times, continuing to ask her why the dog barked. When she told him she didn't know, he said she needed to tell the truth. I think she just did by saying she didn't know. Seriously? How is she supposed to know why the dog barked. That's what dogs do. Some dogs alert by sitting quietly. Depends on what the dog has been trained to do. (I wrote a story for an insurance publication about canine training a few years ago.)

It's not my intent or desire to sue the police department. If this is the worst thing that ever happens to my daughter, she'll live a very blessed life. But if the officer overstepped his authority, that needs to be dealt with internally. My daughter's headlight was out and she didn't have her registration. She got a 2 warnings. If the officer violated his/her authority, he/she needs to be warned, too.

 

[Zigner]

When requested, she presented a false registration card to the officer. In most parts, that is a crime. I really don't think she's got anywhere to go with this.