Expunged from NCIC--totally true?

[rlrl]

What is the name of your state?New York.

Hi.9 years ago I was charged with a class B misdemeanor but pled guilty to a non-criminal violation in NY. I paid a $50 fine, received a conditional discharge and in a year my fingerprints were destroyed, DA and police records sealed. And an expungement order was sent to the NCIC by NY state ordering destroyal of the fingerprint card.The criminal procedure laws in NY dictate that in the event of an acquittal or dismissal (NY CPL 160.50) or plea to a violation (NY CPL 160.55) fingerprints, DA, police records are to be sealed and an expungement order sent to the NCIC.

So this means if one is fingerprinted in NY for a job with a state govt office there will be a "no criminal record found". However, since I was convicted via the guilty plea my court record remains unsealed. So far however this record has not affected my job or anything else. In fact, a consumer reporting agency is not permitted to report an arrest such as mine that ended in a non-criminal violation to a client employer, creditor etc because only a criminal conviction(crime) can be reported. This is as per NY state consumer reporting law. The only parties who can see sealed information are the police such as an arrest or application for a firearm permit.

I am told that once the NCIC receives an expungement order from NY, they destroy the fingerprint card as well as any other information pertaining to the arrest. So if fingerprinted by the NCIC for a job there should be no record.

However for some reason I am a bit skeptical. What if the NCIC fingerprints you for a gun permit or you get arrested in another state? (I'm not planning another arrest or to get a gun, don't worry!). Can't they find out anyway? Once the NCIC expunges the record does that mean they no longer have the record, or does it mean it's there but just sealed, to use for law-enforcement purposes? Can the NCIC go into my NY state sealed record?

If anyone knows please post

Thanks

RL

 

[RedemptionMan]

What is the name of your state?New York.

Hi.9 years ago I was charged with a class B misdemeanor but pled guilty to a non-criminal violation in NY. I paid a $50 fine, received a conditional discharge and in a year my fingerprints were destroyed, DA and police records sealed. And an expungement order was sent to the NCIC by NY state ordering destroyal of the fingerprint card.The criminal procedure laws in NY dictate that in the event of an acquittal or dismissal (NY CPL 160.50) or plea to a violation (NY CPL 160.55) fingerprints, DA, police records are to be sealed and an expungement order sent to the NCIC.

So this means if one is fingerprinted in NY for a job with a state govt office there will be a "no criminal record found". However, since I was convicted via the guilty plea my court record remains unsealed. So far however this record has not affected my job or anything else. In fact, a consumer reporting agency is not permitted to report an arrest such as mine that ended in a non-criminal violation to a client employer, creditor etc because only a criminal conviction(crime) can be reported. This is as per NY state consumer reporting law. The only parties who can see sealed information are the police such as an arrest or application for a firearm permit.

I am told that once the NCIC receives an expungement order from NY, they destroy the fingerprint card as well as any other information pertaining to the arrest. So if fingerprinted by the NCIC for a job there should be no record.

However for some reason I am a bit skeptical. What if the NCIC fingerprints you for a gun permit or you get arrested in another state? (I'm not planning another arrest or to get a gun, don't worry!). Can't they find out anyway? Once the NCIC expunges the record does that mean they no longer have the record, or does it mean it's there but just sealed, to use for law-enforcement purposes? Can the NCIC go into my NY state sealed record?

If anyone knows please post

Thanks

RL

Gun rights deal with felony convictions and certain misdomeanor crimes of violence. An expungement is not the physical destruction of criminal records. An expungement seals the records in regards to regular employment jobs like you said through consumer reporting agencies and for non-law enforcement jobs. However, an expunged record does not remove the conviction for the purposes of later prosecution or removal of a record. The DA can use it against you if you ever get into trouble again. When an expungement is granted it seals all orders, documents, police records, DA file, and fingerprint cards along with it. A packet is sent to your local state criminal records department (NYDOCJ) and then they forward it to the NCIC. The NCIC honors expungements from the state level and will not report an expunged record. Again unless you are applying for a job with the DEA, FBI, or anytype of law enforcement job they are the only ones allowed to see it.....

 

[rlrl]

thanks for the reply

OK. NY uses the term "Sealed" when they destroy the fingerprint card so ones name will not appear on the DCJS database when one goes for a non-law-enforcement job, license. It also applies to the DA and police records too--they are referred too as 'sealed". What strikes me as odd though is that police records are not public information in NY anyway so why do they refer to it as 'sealed" when it already is? Maybe it means that they are not allowed to have your mug shots around?

The other thing is, NY DCJS refers to what the FBI does as 'expunged". I have a letter from the NY state DCJS identification unit saying: "the fingerprint card was destroyed as per Chapter 435 of the laws of NY of 1997. DCJS has forwarded appropriate notification to the FBI of the expungement of this arrest event from their files; however, it is my understanding that their policy is to destroy rather than return the fingerprint card to the individual".

What you seem to be saying is that the FBI has my record in their files but will only use it for law-enforcement purposes (arrest, gun permit). However if I wanted to get a job working for the VA or for a bank, the record should not show anything? Would i be accurate here?

Thanks

RL

 

[smutlydog]

OK. NY uses the term "Sealed" when they destroy the fingerprint card so ones name will not appear on the DCJS database when one goes for a non-law-enforcement job, license. It also applies to the DA and police records too--they are referred too as 'sealed". What strikes me as odd though is that police records are not public information in NY anyway so why do they refer to it as 'sealed" when it already is? Maybe it means that they are not allowed to have your mug shots around?

The other thing is, NY DCJS refers to what the FBI does as 'expunged". I have a letter from the NY state DCJS identification unit saying: "the fingerprint card was destroyed as per Chapter 435 of the laws of NY of 1997. DCJS has forwarded appropriate notification to the FBI of the expungement of this arrest event from their files; however, it is my understanding that their policy is to destroy rather than return the fingerprint card to the individual".

What you seem to be saying is that the FBI has my record in their files but will only use it for law-enforcement purposes (arrest, gun permit). However if I wanted to get a job working for the VA or for a bank, the record should not show anything? Would i be accurate here?

Thanks

RL

No it shouldn't but like others have said in this forum their are private companies that download records before they become sealed. I have looked all over the internet trying to find one that may still have a copy of my record but have not had any success.
Actually I did find one company that claimed to specialize in expunged records but I think it was some kind of a scam. They couldn't even find a copy of a felony conviction that is in the existing county files.

If these expunged record databases exist I wish somebody on this forum could direct me to one of them.

 

[RedemptionMan]

No it shouldn't but like others have said in this forum their are private companies that download records before they become sealed. I have looked all over the internet trying to find one that may still have a copy of my record but have not had any success.
Actually I did find one company that claimed to specialize in expunged records but I think it was some kind of a scam. They couldn't even find a copy of a felony conviction that is in the existing county files.

If these expunged record databases exist I wish somebody on this forum could direct me to one of them.

Ok there are several companies out there that go straight to the county courthouses all almost 3000 of them (county courthouses). They send out local agents to gain this information. They complie databases full of this data and then sell this information to other CRAs. Most reliable CRAs (cause of all the lawsuits being filed) now will investigate the information with the source before they report it due to changes in the information or wanting to verify what they are reporting. Several large companies complie databases of old court records. These records do not reflect changes in terms such as coming off probation and an expunged record. They are accurate as of that moment in time only. Several large companies compile a national criminal file which houses this old court record data and is updated every 3 - 6 - 9 months only. Who knows if they actually update the files or make corrections to it when they recieve other court data?

 

[rlrl]

Federal/state reporting laws

I know that CRA's are supposed to follow state and federal laws regarding reporting criminal records on consumers. A CRA reporting to a client(employer, lender, insurer) in NY cannot report a criminal conviction that is older than 7 years. However if the consumer (job applicant) can be expected to be earning over $25,000 per year, the 7 year rule does not apply. An arrest that resulted in a violation conviction such as mine cannot be reported by a CRA to a NY employer regardless of when the conviction happened. However if the employer does the background check on their own(does not use a CRA), the record can be obtained by the employer.

Then there is the federal law which is more confusing. Someone at a CRA told me that my violation conviction cannot be reported to a client/employer outside NY state if the record is more than 7 years old (which mine is). However, if I can be expected to be earning over $75,000 on the job, the record can be reported. Around 1997 or 1998 there was a change in federal reporting laws. Prior to '97, criminal convictions could be reported only within 7 years. Now they can be reported indefinitely. I am still confused. My record is a conviction though it is not a criminal conviction. I'm not sure if it is considered a 'criminal conviction", an 'arrest" or just 'adverse information" outside NY.

 

[RedemptionMan]

I know that CRA's are supposed to follow state and federal laws regarding reporting criminal records on consumers. A CRA reporting to a client(employer, lender, insurer) in NY cannot report a criminal conviction that is older than 7 years. However if the consumer (job applicant) can be expected to be earning over $25,000 per year, the 7 year rule does not apply. An arrest that resulted in a violation conviction such as mine cannot be reported by a CRA to a NY employer regardless of when the conviction happened. However if the employer does the background check on their own(does not use a CRA), the record can be obtained by the employer.

Then there is the federal law which is more confusing. Someone at a CRA told me that my violation conviction cannot be reported to a client/employer outside NY state if the record is more than 7 years old (which mine is). However, if I can be expected to be earning over $75,000 on the job, the record can be reported. Around 1997 or 1998 there was a change in federal reporting laws. Prior to '97, criminal convictions could be reported only within 7 years. Now they can be reported indefinitely. I am still confused. My record is a conviction though it is not a criminal conviction. I'm not sure if it is considered a 'criminal conviction", an 'arrest" or just 'adverse information" outside NY.

some CRAs follow the 7 year rule and some do not. It only becomes a problem if you are denied employement based on this information. Have you had this type of background check done by a potential employer? I understand your question and realize your problem. The CRAs access information that they have no idea as to what they are reporting. They for the most part are not lawyers. The CRAs will report pleas in which charges are dismissed, not quilty, nol pros, etc. etc. and these would NOT be reported at the state or federal level. There is no control over this tyope of information. Take a look at this it should answer a lot of your questions.....

http://www.privacyrights.org/fs/fs16-bck.htm

 

[rlrl]

Another question--visiting other countries/areas

Thanks again for the info. I am familiar with that website on CRA's that you provided me with. The Federal FCRA says regarding restricted info in a consumer report: arrest info older than 7 years; adverse information older than 7 years (except for criminal convictions can be reported indefinitely). What i have to find out is--is my record considered a "criminal conviction"(in NY it is not considered to be one), an arrest, or adverse information.

Now for my new question. This is about visiting another country particularly Canada with this minor, sealed record. Canada is very strict about letting people in with records, even just to visit. Their site "Pardons Canada" lists types of records that would ban entry to Canada unless one applied for a rehab certificate that would cost upwards of $200 excluding costs for local court, state and FBI record/fingerprinting costs.

My type of record is kind of a gray area. Their system says that one can not be convicted of any more than 2 sum**** misdemeanor offenses, otherwise one has to get a rehab certificate. My record was a conviction for a violation, not a crime.

I contacted Canada twice for advice. I gave them details about my record. the first time(pre-9/11/01) they said it's their opinion that I do not need a rehab certificate to get into canada but if i didn't get a rehab certificate I MIGHT get hassled at the border but they would still let me in anyway.

The second time(post 9/11/01) i contacted canada they said I would need a rehab certificate. They said it doesn't matter if my record is sealed.

Does anyone know who provides the record information at the border--is it NY state or is it the NCIC? And will it read "sealed" or not?

thanks

RL

 

[RedemptionMan]

Thanks again for the info. I am familiar with that website on CRA's that you provided me with. The Federal FCRA says regarding restricted info in a consumer report: arrest info older than 7 years; adverse information older than 7 years (except for criminal convictions can be reported indefinitely). What i have to find out is--is my record considered a "criminal conviction"(in NY it is not considered to be one), an arrest, or adverse information.

Now for my new question. This is about visiting another country particularly Canada with this minor, sealed record. Canada is very strict about letting people in with records, even just to visit. Their site "Pardons Canada" lists types of records that would ban entry to Canada unless one applied for a rehab certificate that would cost upwards of $200 excluding costs for local court, state and FBI record/fingerprinting costs.

My type of record is kind of a gray area. Their system says that one can not be convicted of any more than 2 sum**** misdemeanor offenses, otherwise one has to get a rehab certificate. My record was a conviction for a violation, not a crime.

I contacted Canada twice for advice. I gave them details about my record. the first time(pre-9/11/01) they said it's their opinion that I do not need a rehab certificate to get into canada but if i didn't get a rehab certificate I MIGHT get hassled at the border but they would still let me in anyway.

The second time(post 9/11/01) i contacted canada they said I would need a rehab certificate. They said it doesn't matter if my record is sealed.

Does anyone know who provides the record information at the border--is it NY state or is it the NCIC? And will it read "sealed" or not?

thanks

RL

When a record of a criminal charge, offense, conviction or whatever is expundged that removes from you the civil penalities that are associated with that conviction(s). The information is deleted and as a matter of law it is an incident that you can say never happened or occured. I have no idea as to passport regulations or crossing the border issues. check with the following site it might answer your question..... http://travel.state.gov/passport/passport_1738.html

 

[Donny H]

I'm skeptical there is any such thing as "expunged".

I think it matters who is doing the searching.

I say this because I recently started to check into getting a Class III federal firearms license (automatic weapons), and ATF says they check both expunged records and juvenile records.

That is ATF though, the big, bad, feds, I don't know if any local agency can get access to those records.

Plus, just because I was told that doesn't make it true.

Good luck.

Edit: I didn't notice all the replies, my bad, folks contributed far more depth than my little post, almost embarrassing. I thought I was the first reply.

P.S. I know of a fellow from Colrado recently denied entry to Canada due to an 18 year old DUI, and he had a pardon from the governer in his hand for the border cops. No deal.

 

[RedemptionMan]

I'm skeptical there is any such thing as "expunged".

I think it matters who is doing the searching.

I say this because I recently started to check into getting a Class III federal firearms license (automatic weapons), and ATF says they check both expunged records and juvenile records.

That is ATF though, the big, bad, feds, I don't know if any local agency can get access to those records.

Plus, just because I was told that doesn't make it true.

Good luck.

Edit: I didn't notice all the replies, my bad, folks contributed far more depth than my little post, almost embarrassing. I thought I was the first reply.

P.S. I know of a fellow from Colrado recently denied entry to Canada due to an 18 year old DUI, and he had a pardon from the governer in his hand for the border cops. No deal.

maybe canada has like a ten year waiting list for entry into their country... It is sad but Free health insurance is a BIG plus ......

records that are sealed for a disqualifing conviction (felonies/ violence acts misd. or felony, sex crimes, restraining orders, etc. etc.) still excludes that person from certain gun ownership, voting rights, and licensing boards. Depends upon the conviction and the rules that govern it**************.