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Fined for refusing to provide ID on private property and tackled by police

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rooster3t

Junior Member
What is the name of your state (only U.S. law)? Illinois

Last night my house was having a party and the police came for a noise complaint (no underage drinking, nothing illegal - just too loud). I was outside, on my property, somewhat mouthing off to the police/neighbor who called the complaint in (nothing too extreme, but pretty much saying they were dicks within hearing distance of them). A cop asked for my ID, I said no and he pretty much threatened me that he would arrest me so I started to go inside. Two cops rushed after me and tackled me to the ground inside my door and chipped my tooth. They then searched me and took my id and gave me a citation for violating code 9-5-18-4, which is something along the lines of refusing to provide ID, it's a $750 fine and now I have a chipped tooth.

Was it even legal for them to do this? I looked up the code I "violated" and it says that it needs to be in public space and they have to have reasonable belief that I committed/was about to commit a crime. I was on my property 100% of the time and was doing nothing illegal, I wasn't even holding a drink or anything. I'm guessing this will be pretty easy to have dismissed, but I definitely need to get a lawyer which will be a few hundred, at least, as well as a chipped tooth. Is there anything I can do?

I also am pretty positive the police cruiser's dashboard cam recorded the whole thing, which might be useful. The note on the ticket says "was ordered by R/O to provide his identification when he attempted to flee into his residence. R/O attempted to catch [me] when he actively resisted by pulling away from the R/O and slamming the door on R/O's arm." The "slam" is me shutting the door and him putting his arm in to stop it from closing.

Thanks and all advice is appreciated.
 


What is the name of your state (only U.S. law)? Illinois

Last night my house was having a party and the police came for a noise complaint (no underage drinking, nothing illegal - just too loud). I was outside, on my property, somewhat mouthing off to the police/neighbor who called the complaint in (nothing too extreme, but pretty much saying they were dicks within hearing distance of them). A cop asked for my ID, I said no and he pretty much threatened me that he would arrest me so I started to go inside. Two cops rushed after me and tackled me to the ground inside my door and chipped my tooth. They then searched me and took my id and gave me a citation for violating code 9-5-18-4, which is something along the lines of refusing to provide ID, it's a $750 fine and now I have a chipped tooth.

Was it even legal for them to do this? I looked up the code I "violated" and it says that it needs to be in public space and they have to have reasonable belief that I committed/was about to commit a crime. I was on my property 100% of the time and was doing nothing illegal, I wasn't even holding a drink or anything. I'm guessing this will be pretty easy to have dismissed, but I definitely need to get a lawyer which will be a few hundred, at least, as well as a chipped tooth. Is there anything I can do?

I also am pretty positive the police cruiser's dashboard cam recorded the whole thing, which might be useful. The note on the ticket says "was ordered by R/O to provide his identification when he attempted to flee into his residence. R/O attempted to catch [me] when he actively resisted by pulling away from the R/O and slamming the door on R/O's arm." The "slam" is me shutting the door and him putting his arm in to stop it from closing.

Thanks and all advice is appreciated.
sounds like you got off easy since they could have charged you with assault on an officer for the slamming door thing. Get a lawyer, cause you will need one and it is never a good idea to spout off to an officer, teacher, fire fighter etc. in the course of doing their job. Here is the thing piss off the cops and nothing good ever comes from it, they have the right to do what they want to do and even in some circumstances could shoot you. I would hire a lawyer and plea plea plea then never smart off to a cop again.
 

swalsh411

Senior Member
Sounds like you are about to learn the hard way to never physically challenge the police. The wiser path is to comply, then challenge their actions later. The second you start to get physical with a cop, he can restrain you. He might have thought you were going back into your house to get a gun. Remember, you may know what's going and that nobody is doing anything wrong on but the cops don't know that and they want to go home to see their families that night. The mouthing off and calling them "dicks" didn't help either.

You expect them to be professional but you insult them? Watch the video "flex your rights" or "busted" on youtube. That's how you correctly interact with the cops and assert your rights. Polite but firm, and stand in the doorway with the door open, or speak through the crack in the door. You do not have to open the door for the cops. If they have a warrant, they won't be asking if they can come in.

Frankly you're lucky not to have been arrested and spent the night in jail.
 

justalayman

Senior Member
do you have a real Illinois code section? that 9-5-18-4 does not appear to follow the numbering system Illinois uses.

If that is some local ordinance, what is the municipality?

this is the Illinois statute regarding identifying yourself:


Sec. 107-14. Temporary questioning without arrest.

A peace officer, after having identified himself as a peace officer, may stop any person in a public place for a reasonable period of time when the officer reasonably infers from the circumstances that the person is committing, is about to commit or has committed an offense as defined in Section 102--15 of this Code, and may demand the name and address of the person and an explanation of his actions. Such detention and temporary questioning will be conducted in the vicinity of where the person was stopped.
Illinois defines a public place as any place where the conduct may reasonably be expected to be viewed by others. Your front yard would fit the description.
 

rooster3t

Junior Member
thanks for the first helpful response. I just checked on the public place thing, and I see what your're saying, but that only applies to public indecency. Not sure how that applies to this situation
 

tranquility

Senior Member
It's clear the officer tried to detain you and you left the detention. The police can use force to effect a detention. During the detention, the officer can make a reasonable investigation including asking for ID. Some states have a statute that requires a person to identify themselves if an officer has a reasonable suspicion the person is related to a crime. (I could get more jargony, but that is the core.) Even if there is no statute requiring you identify yourself (making it so you don't have to give ID), that does not mean you can just leave. The police coming to a loud party finding a person at the residence in public "mouthing off" to the complainant could very well lead to reasonable suspicion that person was the cause of the noise or may have committed a separate criminal act.

The key to all this will be twofold. One, did the officer have a reasonable suspicion based on the facts, circumstances and his training and experience to detain you? Two, would a reasonable person have believed he was detained in the situation?

As to the first, maybe. Just on what you reported, I'd certainly think you had something to do with the disturbance of the peace that was reported to the police. As to the second, when a cop threatens you with arrest if you don't do something, I'd lean towards thinking I was being detained.
 

Zigner

Senior Member, Non-Attorney
So...refusing to allow entry to police who don't have a warrant or exigent circumstances is assault? Seriously? :rolleyes:
The police were within their rights to do what they did. The assault is alleged to have occurred when the OP slammed the door on to the officer's arm.
 

justalayman

Senior Member
thanks for the first helpful response. I just checked on the public place thing, and I see what your're saying, but that only applies to public indecency. Not sure how that applies to this situation
Where do you get the claim it only applies to public indecency?
 

justalayman

Senior Member
Just a note: you do not have to provide an actual means of identification (drivers license, ID card, etc.). The law requires you provide your name and address. The law does not allow for the demand of proof of identity (drivers license or such) nor does it allow for the demand of any other information such as SSN or anything else.
 

tranquility

Senior Member
So...refusing to allow entry to police who don't have a warrant or exigent circumstances is assault? Seriously? :rolleyes:
Yes, seriously. The arrest started outside the residence and the police can chase a person inside. (United States v. Santana(1976) 427 U.S. 38)

I said no and he pretty much threatened me that he would arrest me so I started to go inside. Two cops rushed after me and tackled me to the ground inside my door and chipped my tooth.
 

davew128

Senior Member
The police were within their rights to do what they did. The assault is alleged to have occurred when the OP slammed the door on to the officer's arm.
Not if it occurred because the officer was trying to forcibly enter without a warrant, to effect an arrest, or other exigent circumstances. If someone tries closing the door and the officer puts his arm there while its closing without any of the exceptions I listed, that's called TOO FREAKING BAD.
 

davew128

Senior Member
Yes, seriously. The arrest started outside the residence and the police can chase a person inside. (United States v. Santana(1976) 427 U.S. 38)
Threatening to arrest is not an arrest. Police threaten to do a lot of things. You know that as well as anyone.
 

justalayman

Senior Member
Not if it occurred because the officer was trying to forcibly enter without a warrant, to effect an arrest, or other exigent circumstances. If someone tries closing the door and the officer puts his arm there while its closing without any of the exceptions I listed, that's called TOO FREAKING BAD.
The guy was outside when the police initiated the contact with him. If they have lawful basis to detain them, , they attempted to detain him and he starts walking away from them that does allow them to follow him into the house to effect the arrest. At that point, the guy is guilty of resisting arrest and possibly fleeing and alluding.
 

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