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  1. #16
    tranquility is offline Senior Member
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    Especially when going pro-se, that seems to sometimes annoy the judges when someone other than an attorney makes a legal argument.
    What annoys is when a pro-se makes a fact argument when a legal argument is called for. Frivolous motions can be sanctioned. Saying there is no disputed facts except for all the lies is, well it's a typical pro-se argument.
  2. #17
    doodguy is offline Junior Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by tranquility View Post
    It seems dave33 has similar knowledge of legal proceedings as doodguy.

    If we start talking about lies or other matters regarding the truth, that is for trial, not for summary judgment. At least doodguy knew something of the law when he wrote:
    "Defendant finds that there are no material disputed facts" because that would be necessary for the motion to succeed.
    tranquility; I don't know whether to be offended, or eager to learn for you, so erring on my lack of legal expertise, I will lean towards the eager to learn attitude.

    your statement of calling me an idiot for thinking prima facie has not been established is not correct. I am not an idiot just not a lawyer. Here we have one persons testimony to an officer, with no other credible information. There is plenty reasonable doubt of what happened. What if I target you tomorrow sue you for slander at random with no information other than your name. Even better I see your license plate, say yep thats you.

    My prior law experience was my divorce in which I was awarded primary custody of my son through asking questions and researching.

    That said, please educate me; what is needed for prima fascie, what I see here is I was driving with my then pregnant fiance and son being admittedly followed by an old disgruntled woman thinking she needed to teach me some lesson for flicking her off (never happened) I pulled over told her to go away leave me and my family alone as I was 1 block from my house and did not want a crazy woman following my family there.

    She admits to most of that then goes on to lie saying I walked from her drivers side door around her car cracking her passenger mirror. But there's a flaw, why wouldn't I break her drivers mirror or why wouldn't I kick her doors in etc while allegedly walking around her car. Did I calculate on the fly to go break her passenger mirror?What was so special that I would target her passenger side mirror which would case me to walk in front of or behinda crazy womans car?

    Further the officer testimony is I damaged her black bmw. The report says the tag belongs to a mercedes; did the officer even see a cracked mirror on a mercedes or did she look at some bmw?

    Even the officer expresses concern why this lady left the scene went on to party at a casino then call in a report the next day. Was she drunk or under the influence of some type of narcotic?

    I am the victim here. The only thing I did wrong that day was not making this woman follow me to the police station. Thinking quickly, as she was trying to make me rearend her and run me off the road, I wanted to get away from her and happened to be right by the subdivision to my house, so I turned in hoping she would keep driving; she didn't she followed me so I stopped told her to leave.

    Furthermore I am a disabled veteran with limited motion in my right arm, being treated by the VA for extreme pain in my right arm. I am right handed. If I were to break her mirror, I would guess that would take some force at least, and if I did it with my right hand I wouldhave been under a great deal of pain.

    Lastly, my pregnant fiance who was my witness works for the same sheriffs office and we live together. I am very curious why the cop never contacted me, as she could have easily gotten ahold of me. She doesn't even list how she tried to contact me, and nothing was ever left on my door. The only knowledge I have of this event is a disgruntled road rage lady, and then a court date 2 months later. I didn't even give this woman a thought the next day.

    Lastly, she feels she needs to teach me respect; how about this; I lost bothmy parents to cancer before the age of 24. Of course she doesn't know that, but she assumes I have no clue what she's going through. She needs to get over herself.

    I believe she was drunk that day, something happened to her mirror while at the casino and she thought of me in a drunken rage and played out a scenario in her head to try to accuse me. When this is over I intend to sue her for filing a false police report.

    I am open to any advice/experience on proceeding with my case though is why I posted so many personal details here.

    Thank you
  3. #18
    doodguy is offline Junior Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by tranquility View Post
    What annoys is when a pro-se makes a fact argument when a legal argument is called for. Frivolous motions can be sanctioned. Saying there is no disputed facts except for all the lies is, well it's a typical pro-se argument.
    Assuming you were me, assuming I'm telling this forum the 100% truth, how would you proceed? I am open to experienced advice and certainly criticism.

    I was not given a public defenderbecause they say jail is not a possible sentence so I don't qualify.

    I inquired about attornies and they want 1k+ for this and I refuse to pay 1,000 for a blatant lie. Even her statement of her following me because she wanted to teach me a lesson, and then I went out of my way around her car and then she drove to the casino to finish having fun is so bogus, I am not overly worried about whether I'll be found guilty or not. If i'm found guilty its because the judge already has his mind made up for some reason but I am factually not guilty, and will not let someone take $1,000 out of my pocket for nothing. If i thought I might have done something wrong in some way sure I'd need an attorney and protection.
  4. #19
    tranquility is offline Senior Member
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    your statement of calling me an idiot for thinking prima facie has not been established is not correct.
    I would think a person should know the meaning of the words they use. Especially when the words are legal jargon with specific meaning. I pointed out why the prima facie case was made, each of the elements were fulfilled by the facts. You may choose your own word for that, I chose mine.
    Here we have one persons testimony to an officer, with no other credible information.
    That is important at trial. You try to challenge the credibility of the witnesses against you. You are not at trial yet.
    There is plenty reasonable doubt of what happened
    We'll have to ask the fact finder after he makes a conclusion over the credibility of the witnesses after hearing their cross-examined testimony. But, right now, you are in the legal portion of the proceedings. How can you say there is doubt when the (required) opening avers all material facts are undisputed? You don't need legal training to see the logical problem there.
    What if I target you tomorrow sue you for slander at random with no information other than your name. Even better I see your license plate, say yep thats you.
    We settle it in court.
    That said, please educate me; what is needed for prima fascie,
    Each element of the offense has some evidence. In the post you're objecting to, I supplied the prima facie case against you after the "Info edit".
    I am open to any advice/experience on proceeding with my case though is why I posted so many personal details here.
    Get an attorney. Work on proving up your case.
    Assuming you were me, assuming I'm telling this forum the 100% truth, how would you proceed?
    Get and attorney. Work on gathering admissible proof for your side of the issues.
    I inquired about attornies and they want 1k+ for this and I refuse to pay 1,000 for a blatant lie.
    Well, continue on your present path and you might have a misdemeanor conviction in the first degree. Your call.
    I am not overly worried about whether I'll be found guilty or not.
    I guess you made the call. Good luck.
  5. #20
    doodguy is offline Junior Member
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    why would a state atty want to win a case so bad they are willing to convict an innocent person? facts are facts is that not enough?

    tranquility, i am a father of two. I have a family to support, not 1k to throw away no matter the outcome.

    Furthermore criminal mischief claim under $200 is a second degree misdemeanor with max penalty of $500 for first offense.

    I have case law showing to charge above that a jury would need to see EXACT cost of damages made at time of criminal mischief charge. They dont have this, at least it wasn't provided in discovery so it would be inadmissable.

    Lastly, Per wikipedia Prima Facie means at first glance you have to be seen as guilty beyond a reasonable doubt. The smoking gun case was an example of a person holding a gun with a hot barrel on video next to a body would be prima fascie.

    My case has an officer claiming to have examined a bmw with a cracked mirror and a plate that belongs to a mercedes owned by a woman who got my license plate number which is registered to my fiance, and the officer pulled my address to see I live with my fiance and showed the lady a pic of me who says yep thats me. There is nothing solid even placing me at the scene other than my admission of truth. Without testimony from me there is no first glance any of the aforementioned ever happened other than one woman stating a claim.

    Are you an attorney? I am obviously here looking at options to represent myself hence I do not plan on hiring an attorney I can't afford.

    Thank you in advance for any "help" you are willing to provide.

    ps: if I were walking down the street and someone punched me in the face I would have no choice but to defend myself. In a similar fashion here, this is not a game; I am not trying to be a know it all; I was thrown into a game I don't want to be in and I have no choice but to do my best to defend myself. If the legal folk take that as offensive, I'm sorry.
    Last edited by doodguy; 03-06-2012 at 06:47 PM.
  6. #21
    tranquility is offline Senior Member
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    why would a state atty want to win a case so bad they are willing to convict an innocent person? facts are facts is that not enough?
    Why should anyone believe you as opposed to the victim? What part are you not understanding?
    Furthermore criminal mischief claim under $200 is a second degree misdemeanor with max penalty of $500 for first offense.
    Yet, the fact you have to deal with is the claim of $400. Misdemeanor in the first degree. Did you even READ my post?
    I have case law showing to charge above that a jury would need to see EXACT cost of damages made at time of criminal mischief charge. They dont have this, at least it wasn't provided in discovery so it would be inadmissable.
    We'll see. I think they have evidence. The testimony of the victim as reported by the officer.
    Lastly, Per wikipedia Prima Facie means at first glance you have to be seen as guilty beyond a reasonable doubt. The smoking gun case was an example of a person holding a gun with a hot barrel on video next to a body would be prima fascie.
    Sigh. Reread wikipedia. Try to understand it. Come back and read how I showed there was evidence for each of the elements of the crime. Then, STOP CLAIMING THIS FOOLISHNESS.
    My case has an officer claiming to have examined a bmw with a cracked mirror and a plate that belongs to a mercedes owned by a woman who got my license plate number which is registered to my fiance, and the officer pulled my address to see I live with my fiance and showed the lady a pic of me who says yep thats me. There is nothing solid even placing me at the scene other than my admission of truth. Without testimony from me there is no first glance any of the aforementioned ever happened other than one woman stating a claim.
    Super. Prove it in court.
    Are you an attorney? I am obviously here looking at options to represent myself hence I do not plan on hiring an attorney I can't afford.
    I am nothing more than the important notice below says I am.
    I have no choice but to do my best to defend myself
    Then, start trying to prove your case and stop trying legal maneuvers you know nothing about.

    Oh, just to be clear, get an attorney.
  7. #22
    You Are Guilty is offline Senior Member
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    (Part of) what Tranquility is getting at by suggesting that you retain a lawyer, is that there is not "secret phrase" you can learn on the internet which will guaranty the complaint against you is dismissed.

    Further, lawyers go through three or four years of schooling, hours of continuing education classes annually, and 2000+ hours of practice each year to learn the law and how it works. There is simply no way to replicate that body of knowledge on an internet message board sufficiently enough for a layperson to become an effective criminal defense lawyer.

    So not to reiterate the obvious, but the best course of action is to hire a lawyer. Without one, you increase your potential chances of being convicted of a (pretty serious) crime which you did not commit.

    Good luck.
    Quote Originally Posted by Tranquility
    Once you get to crazy land, it is only a guess on how to get out.
  8. #23
    tranquility is offline Senior Member
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    So not to reiterate the obvious, but the best course of action is to hire a lawyer. Without one, you increase your potential chances of being convicted of a (pretty serious) crime which you did not commit.
    I think that's the bottom line. The cheapest course to take is to get an attorney and squash what seems to be a bit of a reach. Just getting an attorney may have the prosecutor look at his case a lot differently.

    The OP is correct. There are a ton of facts which are...unfortunate..to the prosecution here. But, this is not the time to argue them.
  9. #24
    arsenic is offline Member
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    My gratuitous advice is : if you want to make legal arguments in front of a court, you need a lawyer. It is not so much the education; it is the fact that they do this stuff day after day. You are not going to pick up the experience by reading or visiting Internet forums.

    BTW, I am pretty sure that Tranquility is a lawyer, and one of the very few regulars here (4 or less) who actually post useful, expert advice.
  10. #25
    doodguy is offline Junior Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by arsenic View Post
    My gratuitous advice is : if you want to make legal arguments in front of a court, you need a lawyer. It is not so much the education; it is the fact that they do this stuff day after day. You are not going to pick up the experience by reading or visiting Internet forums.

    BTW, I am pretty sure that Tranquility is a lawyer, and one of the very few regulars here (4 or less) who actually post useful, expert advice.
    I would imagine tranquility is a lawyer, and I trust his advice is sound.

    My issue is I don't have a thousand laying around for an attorney, the judge denied me the option of a public defender because he said they are not seeking jail.

    I know I'm not versed in legal jargon, but if I write up:

    Motion to dismiss because this is one persons statement which is not factual have a nice day
    They will laugh at it rip it up and whipe their butt with it. If I reserach case law and statutes, and make a best effort attempt to get them to listen, I feel I have a better shot.

    I'm *avoiding* trial, but if I have to go to trial, I can only hope the truth will prevail, she will show she is a liar, and I can go on with my life.

    Here's a question though, if you all were me would you then hire an attorney to sue her for lost work wages etc for filing a police report or just let it go?

    Lesson learned for me here is if I am ever targeted in road rage again I will be driving to the nearest police station with 911 on the phone.
  11. #26
    arsenic is offline Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by doodguy View Post

    My issue is I don't have a thousand laying around for an attorney, the judge denied me the option of a public defender because he said they are not seeking jail.
    Unless you already have your own successful business or are employed in a lifetime tenured position, a criminal record will be a big negative for near-future job opportunities. The future lost earnings may be a lot more than $1500. You have a bigger problem on your hands than you think.

    In your position I would beg or borrow the money to get a criminal-defense lawyer. To get the money back you would have to sue the other driver in civil court; your chances of success would be slim.
  12. #27
    tranquility is offline Senior Member
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    As to who or what I am, once again, see the "Important Notice" at the bottom of the page. Even IF a person is an attorney, such as YAG, they're not YOUR attorney. Never rely on the internet for legal "advice". But, you can use it to guide your understanding of things.

    Here's a question though, if you all were me would you then hire an attorney to sue her for lost work wages etc for filing a police report or just let it go?
    The first step is to win your criminal case. Then you can think about any suit against the woman. But, just winning the criminal case does not mean you will win in a civil suit against the woman. First, the burden of proof is different. In the criminal, the state (Local or whatever government is prosecuting.) must prove beyond a reasonable doubt each element of the crime was committed by the OP. In a civil, the burden on the plaintiff is a preponderance of the evidence.

    But, the key thing is, any suit the OP is contemplating is not timely yet. If the lies are provable, the attorney the OP hires to protect him from the criminal charges would be part of his damages.

    If I reserach case law and statutes, and make a best effort attempt to get them to listen, I feel I have a better shot.
    I'm glad you finally understand the problem here. But, you are still not doing things right. This is not going to be a legal battle, but a factual one. What happened? Prove it.

    Besides, while the inexperienced OP with no training is combing through what he believes to be relevant cases, the inexperienced prosecutor with lots of training will structure the facts into "issues" and find the actually relevant cases from a book in his library. He won't even read the cases and just use them as they are supposed to be used. I predict case law will be irrelevant to the OP in this case. Better might be to start reading the court's criminal procedure statutes and local rules so that the things he does submit have a chance of getting read.
  13. #28
    doodguy is offline Junior Member
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    Tranquility;

    I have been studying the FL rules of Criminal procedure daily up to and including revisions.

    That is what I have been quoting when I have been citing sources in the motion I listed that I inten(ed) to file.
  14. #29
    tranquility is offline Senior Member
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    That would be why you need an attorney.

    There is no doubt that, under a certain set of facts, your plan would be the correct one. But here, it's not. I assume you will be able to properly format the motion and put in the correct words, but without understanding those words as used in the process, it doesn't help much.

    For example, in your proposed motion you wrote (in part):
    Defendant finds that there are no material disputed facts
    please write out the purpose for that statement and what it means, in English (not jargon). Why is it there?

    You have the Crim Pro resource, you have your reading up to now, you have the internet and any other reference material and the reasons have been alluded to in this thread. You should be successful in rising to my challenge.
  15. #30
    doodguy is offline Junior Member
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    tranquility,

    I may be wrong but here is my understanding:

    A party seeking summary judgment (or making any other motion) is called the "moving party". A "material fact" is one which, depending upon what the factfinder believes "really happened," could lead to judgment in favor of one party, rather than the other.

    In other words, when I continued with my recommendation in my motion to dismiss I wrote a brief of my understanding of the case:

    Victims' statement gives a statement in which defendant was allegedly the target of Victims’ road rage to teach him a lesson of “respect for the elderly”. Victim further stated there are no independent witnesses and presents an uncorroborated testimony of no factual basis. No arrest was made on the alleged date of incident. Furthermore defendant never came into contact with law enforcement nor was made aware of any attempt of contact by law enforcement until notice of arraignment on or about XXXX.

    So in summary, facts are issues raised beyond any doubt IE: Video of an incident. A victim's testimony alone is not considered fact unless other testimony is also entered. There are no "material facts" in this case.

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