Illegal search

[jjag721]

What is the name of your state? Michigan

After a day of hunting, leaving the area in our Jeep, my finace and I were pulled over by the state police, he asked for drivers license and registration, registration was given to him, my drivers license was in my wallet in my backpack in the rear of the jeep (as to not drop it in the woods) the shotgun we used for hunting is in its case and is in plain view in the rear of the jeep. The officer asks "is the gun loaded"
I respond "no" as it is not
"anymore firearms?"
"no" as their are not
The officer allows me to exit the vehicle to retrieve my wallet from the rear, he then notice's the gut knife in a sheath attached to my belt in plain view (3 inch blade), he removes the knife and throws it in the weeds on the side of the road, letting me know "that is where your knife is"
"do you have anymore knives or weapons on you?"
"no"
The officer puts my hands behind my back and pats me down, I'm wearing shorts and a tee shirt, with the search of me over, I begin to open the rear hatch of the Jeep to get my drivers license for him, he puts his hand out to stop the hatch and asks "may I search the vehicle?"
I think for a moment and reply "no"
"NO why not?"
"because that is my right and I don't want you too"
"put your hands behind your back"
"why?"
"your under arrest"
"for what?"
"no operators license"
"its in the back"
after being handcuffed (very tight)
no Miranda
"the handcuffs are to tight!"
"move to the front of the vehicle (jeep) and stay there"
He asked my fiance to step out, seached her.
asked her for permission to search the vehicle.
"no"
From here he began to search, he found my drivers license (legal) and removed and looked at all my wallets contents
removed the gun from its case, it is empty (unloaded)
dumped out and searched my backpacksearched the glove box, every compartment of the Jeep, pulled up the rear seats, everywhere.
searched my fiance's purse, pulling out all contents.
I asked my fiance at this point at the rear of the vehicle.
"did you give consent to be searched?"
"no I didn't"
"he's searching your purse now"
I tell the officer "what your doing is illegall"
he continues
He looks in 2 compartments in the headliner, pulling on one breaking it to get it open.
All his searching produced nothing illegal.
He has me stand next to his vehicle to "run" my license.
He then removes the handcuffs, telling me I may leave now.
I show him the welts on my wrists.
I tell him about my faith in the system, marshall law, etc.(no profanity)
he says "leave now or I'll write you a couple of tickets"
I think... all is legal, but don't push it.
"now you want to violate my freedom of speech"
(Don't push it)
I turn to leave, the back of the Jeep is still open, contents all dumped out, my fiance reminds me the gun is still out of the case from the officer's search.
I start to reach for the gun to make it legal again and return it to its case, and froze, backed away quickly with my hands in the air, thinking he (the officer) could now shoot me.
"OMG he's going to shoot us"
I cannot see the officer due to reds lights flashing and a massive spot light shining in my face.
The officer returns to me.
I asked my fiance to help replace the gun, as at this point he could shoot us.
she also comments that he was going to allow us to proceed down the road
carrying a weapon in an illegal manner.
I ask "why we were pulled over"
"vehicle was weaving"
"liar"
gun secured we leave.
24 hours later my hands have numb area's from the "cuffs"
I just feel really violated at this point, that the officer searched us illegally, but wondered about the gun giving probable cause.
Any input, except to go buy a tube of Preparation H,
would be appreciated.

 

[CdwJava]

Generally, the remedy for an unlawful search is the suppression of evidence. No eveidence means no such remedy.

Given the circumstances, he would have been well within his rights to detain you in cuffs as he inspected the firearm and looked for your license. With a knife and the presence of a firearm, his safety would easily justify the detention in cuffs.

The broader search may have exceeded his authority ... but, not knowing what the officer might say, there is no way to gauge how successful you might be in claiming he violated your rights. He might also claim that the vehicle was subject to impound due to your being under arrest for no license ... it's weak, but possible.

If you intend to sue, consult a local attorney. Keep in mind that without damage or injury, a lawsuit might be difficult - and expensive. And your being handcuffed would have been lawful under a couple of theories (arrest for no license or detained for safety). You can also make a personnel complaint to the agency that employs the officer.

If you plan to make a claim or sue, consult an attorney soon.

- Carl

 

[seniorjudge]

The officer allows me to exit the vehicle to retrieve my wallet from the rear, he then notice's the gut knife in a sheath attached to my belt in plain view (3 inch blade), he removes the knife and throws it in the weeds on the side of the road, letting me know "that is where your knife is"


Since you lied to the officer and he found a deadly weapon on you, then it sounds like what he did what quite reasonable.

 

[jjag721]

no

Michigan law states
750.227. (1) A person shall not carry a dagger, dirk,
stiletto, a double-edged nonfolding stabbing instrument of
any length, or any dangerous weapon, except a hunting
knife adapted and carried as such, concealed on or about
his or her person, or whether concealed or otherwise in
any vehicle... except in his or her dwelling house [or]
place of business... (3) A person who violates this
section is guilty of a felony...

The exception allows me to carry the knife as I did, unconcealed and in a sheath. I do not carry at any other time than to hunt. This is my right in Michigan. The officer never asked if I was wearing an unconcealed hunting knife, because again it is my right.

 

[CdwJava]

The exception allows me to carry the knife as I did, unconcealed and in a sheath. I do not carry at any other time than to hunt. This is my right in Michigan. The officer never asked if I was wearing an unconcealed hunting knife, because again it is my right.

It may have been legal, but it was still a danger to him. He had every right to discard the knife and to detain you. Whether he had a right to search your vehicle for the license or anything else will depend on state law and what he claims as his authority to do so.

What is it you arte hoping to do with this? Do you want to complain against the officer? That's easy - you call the agency in question. If you want to sue someone you will need to get a bunch of money up front to pay for the attorney, but unless you have suffered some serious harm I doubt there will be any real money in such a case.

But, ya never know.

- Carl

 

[jjag721]

I'm not looking for monetary relief.
It's the principal, that we have rights, I felt they were violated, I asked for opinion. Of course you only hear my side, but I have nothing to hide, as I didn't with the officer.
I am 44 yo, college educated, never been arrested
Both parents were prominent city officals, I've attended and supported the Charles Hammond #99 F.O.P lodge since I was a kid, I'm not a cop hater.
But sometimes things go wrong.
Thanks for advice Carl

 

[CdwJava]

Well, as i see it you have two ways to stand up for your principles in this: (1) File a personnel complaint, or, (2) Hire an attorney to fight for an apology or monetary awards.

Option (1) is the least expensive route and may (or may not) result in something positive. At the very least his supervisors will be noticed that this officer might be pushing the envelope. Option (2) would cost money up front, take a year or two to wrangle through the courts or come to a settlement, and may not result in anything tangible at all.

I can see an argument to be made justifying the search in its entirety ... it would be a weak one, but it could be made all the same. Your detention in cuffs is an easy one - perfectly permissable. The search of the car (aside from locating the driver's license) and the girlfriend's purse are less clear-cut, but I could articulate good cause to do justify it and I imagine the officer in your case could as well.

It's up to you.

- Carl

 

[Kane]

You need to file a complaint with the appropriate agency.

I don't know what that is, where you live - we have a citizen review board where I live, but I don't if you have that there. Find out.

If they don't have one, have a talk with his boss. Is he a local cop? County? City?

If the police dept he works in won't talk to you, go over their heads - to the elected officials. If it's a small town, talk to the mayor, or the city council, or whatever they have where you live.

See if he's had other complaints filed against him.

If what you've said is true, you're not the first, and you won't be the last.

You need to do something about this guy, because if you don't, who will?

 

[CdwJava]

As an FYI, at least in my state, the local city council people and the mayor are not likely going to get involved in a personnel complaint issue. They MIGHT mention it to the Chief or Sheriff (or command staff) but there are likely some legal issues preventing them from getting involved in any way.

Also, in almost every state you will NOT be able to get a complaint history of the officer without a court order ... and then, only if it is part of a civil suit.

- Carl

 

[seniorjudge]

What is the name of your state? Michigan

After a day of hunting, leaving the area in our Jeep, my finace and I were pulled over by the state police, he asked for drivers license and registration, registration was given to him, my drivers license was in my wallet in my backpack in the rear of the jeep (as to not drop it in the woods) the shotgun we used for hunting is in its case and is in plain view in the rear of the jeep. The officer asks "is the gun loaded"
I respond "no" as it is not
"anymore firearms?"
"no" as their are not
The officer allows me to exit the vehicle to retrieve my wallet from the rear, he then notice's the gut knife in a sheath attached to my belt in plain view (3 inch blade), he removes the knife and throws it in the weeds on the side of the road, letting me know "that is where your knife is"
"do you have anymore knives or weapons on you?"
"no"
The officer puts my hands behind my back and pats me down, I'm wearing shorts and a tee shirt, with the search of me over, I begin to open the rear hatch of the Jeep to get my drivers license for him, he puts his hand out to stop the hatch and asks "may I search the vehicle?"
I think for a moment and reply "no"
"NO why not?"
"because that is my right and I don't want you too"
"put your hands behind your back"
"why?"
"your under arrest"
"for what?"
"no operators license"
"its in the back"
after being handcuffed (very tight)
no Miranda
"the handcuffs are to tight!"
"move to the front of the vehicle (jeep) and stay there"
He asked my fiance to step out, seached her.
asked her for permission to search the vehicle.
"no"
From here he began to search, he found my drivers license (legal) and removed and looked at all my wallets contents
removed the gun from its case, it is empty (unloaded)
dumped out and searched my backpacksearched the glove box, every compartment of the Jeep, pulled up the rear seats, everywhere.
searched my fiance's purse, pulling out all contents.
I asked my fiance at this point at the rear of the vehicle.
"did you give consent to be searched?"
"no I didn't"
"he's searching your purse now"
I tell the officer "what your doing is illegall"
he continues
He looks in 2 compartments in the headliner, pulling on one breaking it to get it open.
All his searching produced nothing illegal.
He has me stand next to his vehicle to "run" my license.
He then removes the handcuffs, telling me I may leave now.
I show him the welts on my wrists.
I tell him about my faith in the system, marshall law, etc.(no profanity)
he says "leave now or I'll write you a couple of tickets"
I think... all is legal, but don't push it.
"now you want to violate my freedom of speech"
(Don't push it)
I turn to leave, the back of the Jeep is still open, contents all dumped out, my fiance reminds me the gun is still out of the case from the officer's search.
I start to reach for the gun to make it legal again and return it to its case, and froze, backed away quickly with my hands in the air, thinking he (the officer) could now shoot me.
"OMG he's going to shoot us"
I cannot see the officer due to reds lights flashing and a massive spot light shining in my face.
The officer returns to me.
I asked my fiance to help replace the gun, as at this point he could shoot us.
she also comments that he was going to allow us to proceed down the road
carrying a weapon in an illegal manner.
I ask "why we were pulled over"
"vehicle was weaving"
"liar"
gun secured we leave.
24 hours later my hands have numb area's from the "cuffs"
I just feel really violated at this point, that the officer searched us illegally, but wondered about the gun giving probable cause.
Any input, except to go buy a tube of Preparation H,
would be appreciated.

This officer should be given an award for meritorious duty.

 

[Kane]

Most cops are good cops. It's not an easy job. You have to balance competing interests. You have to be tough-minded, but fair. You have to keep up with often vague, ambiguous, or conflicting rules of law. And you have to put yourself in dangerous situations, while also considering the rights and the dignity of people who may or may not have done anything wrong. You also have to keep in mind your conduct may later be picked apart by people who weren't there, and have to appreciation for what it's like to try to do your job. A cop has to be braver than the average man.

The bad ones though, make life harder not only for the civilians they mistreat, but for their brother officers as well. Every time a cop mistreats a citizen, or otherwise gets caught doing something wrong, the public trusts officers less. The more antagonism the public has for police, the harder and more dangerous their jobs become.

That's just one reason it's so important for people who aren't cut out for it to find another line of work, and to be forced out, if it comes to it.

 

[Kane]

Java, in Austin it was the involvement of the city council that got the APD to agree to civilian oversight. (Specifically, as I understand it, a pay raise for officers that was under consideration at the time.)

 

[CdwJava]

Java, in Austin it was the involvement of the city council that got the APD to agree to civilian oversight. (Specifically, as I understand it, a pay raise for officers that was under consideration at the time.)

Civilian Review Boards vary by state. In CA they often have no real authority as the personnel laws here are pretty strict. However, there are a few locales where these committees have worked well due to a lot of trial-and-error and coordination among the parties. Where they are created as a result of politics and staffed with either political appointees or by people who have an axe to grind, they are met with distrust and a lack of cooperation by the officers.

I have never worked for an agency that had to report to one, so I don't know first hand how well they work. However, when I was in so. Cal there was a local agency that had to report to a county CLERB, and there was a LOT of animosity there.

- Carl

 

[Kane]

Java, if you're a cop, you know more about it than I do.

In my line of work, they have a formal complaint procedure, and people go way out of their way to avoid a complaint, if they can.

I had thought, most, if not all, police departments had some sort of complaint procedure. Is that not true? Does it matter to a cop if he's had complaints filed against him?

 

[CdwJava]

I had thought, most, if not all, police departments had some sort of complaint procedure. Is that not true? Does it matter to a cop if he's had complaints filed against him?

Yes, as far as I know every state and every agency has rules to govern complaints. In CA the process is also covered pretty extensively by statute. The privacy concerns of the employees, however, often restrict what information can be passed on to non-employees (such as on a review board) so prior to civilian boards being effective a good number of safeguards have to be put in to place. The last thing ANY cop wants is to find his personal information, accusations, or problems splashed on the front page of the paper.

Prior complaints MAY have an impact. It really depends on the nature of the complaint and the outcome of the prior complaint.

Unfortunately, some agencies in my state (and those under federal consent decrees like the LAPD) consider that "where there's smoke, there's fire". The problem with this approach is that it discourages proactive enforcement.

For instance, if I was working in LAPD and working a high crime neighborhood or in a gang unit where I needed to go out and contact crooks on a daily basis I would rack up complaints ... it's the nature of the game, and the crooks know it. Make a complaint and try to use that as leverage to get out of a criminal charge. Now, with the new rules, officers are becoming more RE-active as opposed to PRO-active due to these complaints - and the crooks know it. An officer that wants a special assignment or promotion is going to keep his head low instead of being assertive and trying to prevent a crime or hunt down criminals.

In general, the complaining party reports the personnel complaint to the employing agency (usually required to be in writing), is interviewed by a sergeant or whoever is assigned to do the investigation, and the complaint is processed for whatever investigation is necessary. Similar complaints of the same nature tend to raise eyebrows. The odd complaint here and there is not likely to cause much concern unless they are for identical issues.

There is a LOT to the IA process - at least in CA. But, in some states, they may circular file these complaints as a matter of process. Who knows?

- Carl