Illegal Search and Seizure? Please Read:

[JudgeX]

I live in WV

We went to a local area that is known for where the "Mothman" was originally sighted. We were ghost hunting.

I am 25 years old, so is my girlfriend. The two other passengers were 18 year olds, my cousin and his friend.

We arrived at the "TNT Area" around 1 AM. There are no known posted signs that say that we aren't allowed to be out there, and officers later confirmed that "we hadn't done anything wrong" since Raccoon Hunters and Frog Giggers are allowed to frequent the area in the same time slot.

We park, get out, explore for about 3 hours and return. We are confronted by an officer that takes us back to my jeep in his cruiser, where we are informed by another county officer that my jeep has been essentially searched.

They found that the doors were unlocked (this is their claim, I am 99% certain that all doors were locked except for the hatch).

They took my girlfriend's ID, her cellphone, and her medicine out of her purse and a state trooper also on the scene took that with him in his cruiser to go search another location about 3 miles away for more people, as people frequently come out and ghost hunt. (Just type TNT Area and Mothman into your favorite search engine).

They had apparently called my girlfriend's Mom and worried her to death by telling her that her ID had been found in an "abandoned" vehicle. Running my plates and her ID would reveal the same address, since we live together, and since my cellphone was found with her stuff, it seems that it would be at that point VERY OBVIOUS that it was not an abandoned vehicle and there was no foul play.

Anyway, they found nothing illegal (We're all good people, i swear), the state trooper arrives after hitting a deer and making us wait 20 minutes while we're made to feel like the worst people on earth by these county cops, and finally gives us back our belongings, and they tell us to get the hell out of the area.

During this entire exchange, the officer in the K-9 unit vehicle used mounds and mounds of profanity... I'm talking the s and f words very liberally sprinkled in his conversation... he's even raising his voice quite a bit as he tells us it's stupid to park out here and not lock doors or leave a note. We're also called stupid for not calling everyone we know at 1 AM and telling them where we are going... etc.

Also, a huge annoyance is that my girlfriend's car keys were in her purse, and they are now nowhere to be found. Whether the police accidentally dropped them or accidentally forgot to give them back, I don't know, but, she's never lost a set of keys before, and now they are certainly gone... and she is 100% sure they were in her purse.

My questions are:
1) Are they allowed to search my vehicle simply because it's been sitting for 3 hours parked in a public place? I know they can generate a BS probable cause, because they said they were worried there was a kidnapping or that we might be out robbing TNT out of the locked up domes... but, beyond that, I don't think my vehicle's mere presence gives a probable cause, and that's all they searched on. All searching was done completely out of my presence with me having no knowledge of it.

2) What do I do about those lost keys.

3) Do they have the right to call people at 4 AM and worry them in this fashion?

4) Do they have the right to take things out of my car and transport them to other locations without letting me know in advance? (Medicine, IDs, Receipts from where we'd purchased non-alcoholic beverages, 2 Cellphones, possibly unreturned car keys)?

5) Is there any protocol that defines the language an officer of the law may use while dealing with a civilian who is not suspect in any crime? The State Trooper even used very negative language and expressed rather harshly his upset with us for "causing him to hit a deer looking for us". (The F word was in there a couple times)

6) Can they tell me to leave a public wildlife area that is frequently used by campers, giggers, hunters, and other ghost hunters late at night, when there are no signs posted detailing hours of operation? (and certainly none posted along the route we took, and absolutely none large enough to be reasonably seen, as, I was looking beforehand.)

7) What do I do about those lost keys?

Thanks in advance! I have more details about this event if needed. Overall it was probably about 40 minutes spent with the police being told how retarded I am for not locking my doors, etc.
-JX

 

[calatty]

If something bad had happened to you, wouldn't you have been grateful they searched the car? I would hope the police would investigate further if they saw an apparently abandoned truck in an isolated area in the middle of the night.

 

[JudgeX]

Honestly, yes, it would be good for them to search the car...

But, given the location... 3 hours of being parked in a place that's meant to be parked in... I don't think that's necessary.

I'm relatively certain that the officers knew we were alright. People go out there all the time and park exactly as we had.

I believe protocol should demand that they wait at least 12-24 hours before searching a car they've found parked (in a parking spot especially), before opening it and ransacking the contents, and taking personal items out of the vehicle and transporting them to another location.

To me, it seems like these officers were just bored and looking for something to get into, and they seemed to enjoy yelling at us and trying to make us feel really stupid.

So, while I agree that they should search vehicles that they find abandoned, there should be some kind of time frame that must pass before the search commences... otherwise, officers in this area have the right to open EVERY SINGLE CAR that parks in that 10 mile radius after hours. (We weren't even the only people out there. When we arrived, we ran into some frog giggers and saw some other people out on the trails... the officers didn't seem to even take note of this fact, I guess, because those people had locked their car doors).

If I had actually been carrying something illegal in my vehicle, would evidence found in this manner be admitted in court? They went through my car in rather good detail, as I mentioned, even getting into an empty plastic bag in the back seat to retrieve the receipts for the soft drinks we purchased prior to hiking out on the trails.

I just don't feel comfortable with anyone, officer or not, rifling through my car-garbage, receipts, glove box, visor, taking my cellphone, making these phonecalls... etc...

My girlfriend's parents probably think I'm an awful influence because of all this, and we're 25 years old. What age do you have to be before people stop calling home to tattle on you to your parents? Don't our parents have a right not to be bothered at 4 AM because their kids left their car for 3 hours?

 

[rmet4nzkx]

When I was a teenager, there was a story about a ghost who haunted the local cemetary. This was not a joke and many locals heard her moans and sometimes caught a glimpse of her, pacing back and forth in the distance. This included adults living in the area.

I understand and am informed that, one night under a full moon, a group of several teenager crept into the cemetary by a service enterence at the back of the cemetary so as to avoid climbing over the 12 foot high fence which was locked at night. As they crept towards the front of the cemetary, the stillness of the night was broken by the wailing of the ghost as the teenagers violated her peace. They quite literally huddled together scared for their lives and hid behind a large monument.

One of them, the bravest of the lot, peaked out from behind the monument, held their breath and carefully surveyed the sceen. Again, the ghost began to moan and her spectral body was clearly lit by the moonlight, pacing in the distant trees, moaning as she went. Her sad lament clearly striking terror in the hearts of the teenagers huddling behind the monument. With a start they jumped when the brave teen observer, tapped them on the shoulders, pointing out that the Ghost, was the erie effect of the rain jet sprinkler hitting the screen of willow-like Eucalyptus branches that hung in the distance, as it moved back and forth.

Mystery solved.

Or was it?

 

[JETX]

My questions are:
1) Are they allowed to search my vehicle simply because it's been sitting for 3 hours parked in a public place? I know they can generate a BS probable cause, because they said they were worried there was a kidnapping or that we might be out robbing TNT out of the locked up domes... but, beyond that, I don't think my vehicle's mere presence gives a probable cause, and that's all they searched on. All searching was done completely out of my presence with me having no knowledge of it.

2) What do I do about those lost keys.

3) Do they have the right to call people at 4 AM and worry them in this fashion?

4) Do they have the right to take things out of my car and transport them to other locations without letting me know in advance? (Medicine, IDs, Receipts from where we'd purchased non-alcoholic beverages, 2 Cellphones, possibly unreturned car keys)?

5) Is there any protocol that defines the language an officer of the law may use while dealing with a civilian who is not suspect in any crime? The State Trooper even used very negative language and expressed rather harshly his upset with us for "causing him to hit a deer looking for us". (The F word was in there a couple times)

6) Can they tell me to leave a public wildlife area that is frequently used by campers, giggers, hunters, and other ghost hunters late at night, when there are no signs posted detailing hours of operation? (and certainly none posted along the route we took, and absolutely none large enough to be reasonably seen, as, I was looking beforehand.)

7) What do I do about those lost keys?

Thanks in advance! I have more details about this event if needed. Overall it was probably about 40 minutes spent with the police being told how retarded I am for not locking my doors, etc.
-JX

My new 'standard' answer for these types of 'can they?' posts. To be read in a 'robotic monotone'.
"Of course they are not allowed to do that. You have had a grave misjustice placed on your head.
I strongly suggest you contact Oprah, Dr. Phil, Jesse Jackson, the local ACLU and the local press media (they are known liberals) and voice your concerns.

Surely, the courts will see the error of the investigating officer(s) ways and release you to return to society.
You are a good person....
You are a good person....
You are a good person...."

 

[rmet4nzkx]

How many Frenchmen does it take to defend Paris?
We don't know.... they never have!!

I like your new signature, how true!

 

[hdianne]

My new 'standard' answer for these types of 'can they?' posts. To be read in a 'robotic monotone'.
"Of course they are not allowed to do that. You have had a grave misjustice placed on your head.
I strongly suggest you contact Oprah, Dr. Phil, Jesse Jackson, the local ACLU and the local press media (they are known liberals) and voice your concerns.

Surely, the courts will see the error of the investigating officer(s) ways and release you to return to society.
You are a good person....
You are a good person....
You are a good person...."

You didn't answer even one of this guys questions so why reply with bull$hit answers?

 

[CdwJava]

My questions are:
1) Are they allowed to search my vehicle simply because it's been sitting for 3 hours parked in a public place?

They found the car doors unlocked in a place where it's likely they don't have a lot of parked vehicles. They may be able to justify entry to determine if it had been stolen, or, if they had some other good cause. Why did they say they searched it?

And if they found nothing incriminating inside, then you really have no recourse anyway as there is no evidence to have suppressed.

And if you are so sure the car was locked - how did they get in?

Oh, and finding a purse in an unlocked vehicle in the middle of a secluded area IS cause for alarm! If it were MY child, I would sure as heck want the cops out looking for them! Your claim that there was "obviously" no foul play is ludicrous. There was no likely obvious evidence OF foul play, but the reverse does not hold true.

2) What do I do about those lost keys.

Report them missing (if you can) and get some new keys made.

3) Do they have the right to call people at 4 AM and worry them in this fashion?

Yes. They were investigating some suspicious circumstances. In fact, I would commend them on being so diligent in checking in to such suspicious circumstances. Had you and she let someone know you were going to be wandering around in the hicks in the middle of the night - or left a note on the dash - this wouldn't have been such a big deal.

4) Do they have the right to take things out of my car and transport them to other locations without letting me know in advance?

How could they let you know? You weren't there.

It's questionable that they removed the items, but they can likely justify it to some degree by taking the property for safekeeping. Would you have preferred Johnny Joe Burglar took her purse?

5) Is there any protocol that defines the language an officer of the law may use while dealing with a civilian who is not suspect in any crime? The State Trooper even used very negative language and expressed rather harshly his upset with us for "causing him to hit a deer looking for us". (The F word was in there a couple times)

That's a personnel issue and not a legal one. I doubt he is permitted to use foul language with you. If you have a beef with him, contact his employer and ask to file a complaint.

6) Can they tell me to leave a public wildlife area that is frequently used by campers, giggers, hunters, and other ghost hunters late at night, when there are no signs posted detailing hours of operation?

Yes. Signs just serve as notice that will justify your arrest when simply found there. Otherwise, they can ask you to leave. If you want to push it, you can refuse and see if they arrest you. Then you can challenge the arrest in court.

Most public wildlife areas have closing times and even closed areas. Posting signs every 100' or so would sort of disrupt the natural flow of the place, wouldn't you think?

7) What do I do about those lost keys?

See #2 above.

Thanks in advance! I have more details about this event if needed. Overall it was probably about 40 minutes spent with the police being told how retarded I am for not locking my doors, etc.
-JX

Hopefully you will not leave those doors unlocked anymore. And, I would recommend no more 1 AM sojourns into the wilds where anyone can be waiting for you.

- Carl

 

[racer72]

You didn't answer even one of this guys questions so why reply with bull$hit answers?

I have just given this information to the undercover cops in the van located up the street.

 

[JudgeX]

Wow, what an incredible number of smarmy replies.

For the doubting thomas above...

"It's questionable that they removed the items, but they can likely justify it to some degree by taking the property for safekeeping. Would you have preferred Johnny Joe Burglar took her purse?"

Honestly, they did. That was about 75% of my frustration with the situation, having to wait for the state police officer to bring back my cellphone and girlfriend's other items.


What's the deal with the nature of these "Automatically defend the police" posts?

I really hope something like this happens to you guys one day so you can deal with the frustration. And then when you give someone a description they can say "Yes, the police have the right to do absolutely everything they want to you and your property short of shooting you in the face for no reason, no matter what you do."



"Yes. They were investigating some suspicious circumstances. In fact, I would commend them on being so diligent in checking in to such suspicious circumstances. Had you and she let someone know you were going to be wandering around in the hicks in the middle of the night - or left a note on the dash - this wouldn't have been such a big deal."

We are 25 years old. We should not be required by police to call people that we know at midnight and say "By the way, we're going out into the woods." It was a spur of the moment thing we thought we'd do for fun, not something we planned for even an hour before we went.

Again, at exactly what point do cops stop calling home? That's rude and unnecessary. Honestly, I'm not close with my family. If I turn up dead, I don't care if they never know... but apparently if I park my car for 3 hours in a "somewhat abandoned-like fashion", my Mom's gonna know about it if she answers the phone at 4 AM.

Also, how many times have you left a note on your car that said "By the way, I'm walking around in the woods exploring the area, at this time of night mostly because it's creepier, and partially because I work a late shift and this constitutes my equivalent of an afternoon. I left my hatch unlocked due to a little negligence, and, I normally don't even lock my doors anyway since this is west virginia, and in my 25 years of living here I've never been robbed."

"Most public wildlife areas have closing times and even closed areas. Posting signs every 100' or so would sort of disrupt the natural flow of the place, wouldn't you think?"

For one, I researched this one. McClintock Wildlife area is a hunting, fishing, and camping area funded by the state, maintained by the Army Corp of Engineers. It has no closing hours because many of the species to be hunted (raccoons, frogs, etc) are best hunted at night, and because it's a CAMP GROUND.

Furthermore, a quick search of "TNT Area" in google will reveal at LEAST 10-15 webpages made by similar ghost hunting visitors who went to the same locations and took pictures at night. SURELY the police encountered a couple of their vehicles and did not make this much of a stink about it.


"Oh, and finding a purse in an unlocked vehicle in the middle of a secluded area IS cause for alarm! If it were MY child, I would sure as heck want the cops out looking for them! Your claim that there was "obviously" no foul play is ludicrous. There was no likely obvious evidence OF foul play, but the reverse does not hold true."

For one... finding out that my vehicle was unlocked SHOULD BE A VIOLATION OF MY RIGHTS. Keep your hands off of my car unless I give you REALLY, REALLY good reason to check it out (Good reasons? See: I shot someone and there's blood all over it, or I'm speeding at 100 in a 25mph lane, or I refuse to exit my vehicle, etc... not that I parked it somewhere unlocked)...

Also, a "Secluded" area, yes, but a quite FREQUENTED secluded area. I guarantee on ANY FRIDAY NIGHT there will be 2-3 cars out there in various places. We saw one ourselves and didn't even cover a TENTH of the area. THe reason the state cop left with our stuff, in his words, was to go over to "Lakin Asylum and check for more cars"... another officer said "Lots of people go out there and park, too"... which that place, yes, is well marked and closed state property, so that's fine... but not when you're taking our cellphones, keys and ID and such with you.

Also, a purse in a car in the woods... let's see. You're a girl... about to be climbing through the woods and walking on nature trails. You know there is a high chance that you could drop your stuff in some swamp muck. Do you... A) Take your purse with you so that you can lose all your documents in the woods and get it snagged on a bunch of branches, etc... or B) Opt to go without it, and keep a free hand in case you need to climb something?

I think my girlfriend chose B on that one, and it turns out that the only reason it was a mistake was because cops decided to go through my car with a fine-toothed comb and snag her ID out of her purse.

Yeah, I'd like to consider these guys real heroes... doing their job... but the fact is, they were crude asswipes who wanted nothing more than to mess around with some people... and I STILL feel like my rights were trampled.

A car parked for 3 hours... at any time of night... in any location NOT CLEARLY MARKED... does not a search warrant grant. Period. Whatever story you want to create out of thin air as your "probable cause" is your own wonderful story, because if that holds up... they pretty much have free reign over the inside of my car... and that gives an inscrupulous officer the leighway to STEAL MY BELONGINGS (see: car keys). No, I don't particularly trust people that "tawlk liyuk thiyus" and use foul language, regardless of their uniform. To this day I could STILL be missing something that I don't yet know of after this transgression, and that bothers the crap out of me.

And hdianne, thank you... I still think all I've seen are BS answers though. Not just because they aren't what I hear, but because if you look through this forum, almost EVERY SINGLE TIME a car is entered and reported here, the same sort of "You're a criminal, you deserve bad things to happen to you" responses get posted by jerks.

I'm looking for a serious, intelligent response that explains (citing legal code, hopefully), just WHY they were allowed access to my car.


Thanks,
-JX

 

[JudgeX]

http://www.mothmanlives.com/areaphotoindex.html

http://www.graveaddiction.com/tnt.html

http://www.forteantimes.com/articles/156_pointpleasant.shtml
^^ Journalist reports going in daylight and late at night

http://www.pointpleasantwv.org/MasonCoHistory/MasonCountyHistoryWebPage.htm
^^ Point pleasant website, essentially ADVERTISING the TNT Area

http://www.westvirginiaghosthunters.com/PlumleyMansion.html
^^ People taking pictures at Lakin, less than a mile from our location, and the area our state trooper decided to drive to in order to look for more people (yes, at 4 AM!)

The purpose of this post was just to show that the area isn't really as "secluded" as you might think. It's a common hangout spot (which is very evident by the massive number of beer cans and such that can be found in any of the areas or open domes). The officers OUGHT TO HAVE KNOWN that we were just out there for recreation, and without more than an unlocked car to go on, I feel like they totally ruined our outing without good cause.



Oh, and "Hopefully you will not leave those doors unlocked anymore. And, I would recommend no more 1 AM sojourns into the wilds where anyone can be waiting for you." ... Dude, this is the United States of America. If I so choose to journey into the wild at 1 AM, I really shouldn't be bothered by cops for more than a friendly hello. I don't know what **** country you come from where there's a curfew for 25 year olds, but, I sure don't wanna be there (I often work until 10PM, when the hell else am I SUPPOSED to go outside and do stuff?)

 

[CdwJava]

Oh, and "Hopefully you will not leave those doors unlocked anymore. And, I would recommend no more 1 AM sojourns into the wilds where anyone can be waiting for you." ... Dude, this is the United States of America. If I so choose to journey into the wild at 1 AM, I really shouldn't be bothered by cops for more than a friendly hello. I don't know what **** country you come from where there's a curfew for 25 year olds, but, I sure don't wanna be there (I often work until 10PM, when the hell else am I SUPPOSED to go outside and do stuff?)

It's a balancing act ... had she or you been in dire need (say, carjacked and being held for illicit sexual purpose sint he woods) people would be praising their actions. Had they failed to act on it and such crimes were perpetrated, then the police would likewise be chastised and reviled.

I'm sorry you didn't like how they did their job. Complain to their supervisors. I'm sure they will be more than happy to leave people alone out there ... and hopefully nobody will be victimized as a result of them backing off.

Had their been evidence of your criminal activity discovered in your vehicle, then there is a good chance it would be toosed out. But, if they were acting based on a suspicious circumstance, then more power to them.

I found a woman being held at gunpoint by a rapist once under very similar circumstances ... had I followed YOUR advice and just left it alone, she would likely be dead right now. So, I - apparently like these officers - will take my chances and err on the side of public safety and suffer the slings and arrows of the slightly inconvenienced rather than ignore what COULD be a heinous crime being perpetrated.

If you want your police department to sit in their cars and wait for the calls to come in, push for that. In the meantime, cops will continue to follow their guts. And if they make the wrong call, they make the wrong call. But who did it really harm?

- Carl

 

[JudgeX]

I understand what you're saying.

Who did it harm? Me and my girlfriend. How? 3 ways:

1) Irrecoverable Lost keys
2) The worry inducing phone call to my girlfriend's parents made us out to look really bad, and me to be a bad influence on her. While I had a good standing relationship with her parents, now that is in question.
3) Violation factor: These cops could have robbed me and nobody would have ever known. They could have used a slim jim to get in my car, taken my stuff, and claimed they found it unlocked. Furthermore, having 3 different people go through your belongings in your car is ridiculous... I tend to keep my car a little messy and that's embarassing. I'm glad I don't carry a double dong in there or something.

This kind of behavior in conjunction with strict rules like "open container laws" means that if one of my passengers had decided to have a drink and leave the bottle in my vehicle, I'd have been fined for it after this search.

Being held at gunpoint and forcedd to do something sexual just doesn't happen out in those woods. It's never happened, and it probably never will. There was one murder out there about 6 years ago where someone was shot to death at the shooting range that is part of the campgrounds, but that happened midday.

Beyond that, one person fell out of the second story of the lakin building and nearly decapitated himself (a friend of my cousin's, who is now dead as a result of this fall). That's why I say, if the cops want to harass people at Lakin and make their day difficult, go for it! It's illegal to be there, it's a condemned building, and it is verifiably dangerous because the ceiling is caved in, etc. At a campground/wildlife reserve with hiking paths and picnic benches... I don't think cops need to be popping open every unlocked car and causing mayhem.

What is with the attitude that cops have that they own the night time? This isn't the first time I've been harassed by a cop because it was dark outside. Tried to walk up to the area where my old high school was when I was about 22... cop stops and starts questioning me and asking me if I have spraypaint on me and such... runs my ID and tells me to leave. What, certain streets close because the sun went down now?

I think officers are taking liberties with the extended rights they are given, and use them as a form of recreation now. "Oh, I'm bored of driving around out here in the dark woods... hey look, a jeep! Maybe someone's in trouble *wink wink nudge nudge*, let's see if it's open! Look, cool stuff! Woohoo, some people! Let's scare the crap out of them and make them think they are in deep **** for a while and then tell em they didn't do anything wrong..."

I really wish I knew a place where I could find the rules that allow them to investigate my car. I'm almost certain they had no legal right.

Plus, I think I should be given at least an iota of credit... Anyone "waiting for me" in the woods might just be the one needing medical evacuation at the end of the night, armed or not. I don't need the police to protect me, and when I do for some reason, I'll certainly ask. At this point, with the number of times I've been harassed, I'm starting to prefer an "emergency response only" system, where a cop can only get in the way of normal life if he sees blood, fire, corpses, psychotic driving (as in, switching between two lanes over and over, or, ramming the side of a building), or some other OBVIOUS INDICATORS.

It'd make their jobs WAY EASIER... Traffic would no longer slow to a crawl in their presence, people would no longer feel nervous when one rolled up unless they were actually doing something bad... (because I think MOST civilians actually start doing the "am I 100% legal" checkup by looking at inspection stickers, thinking about registration, looking at the speedometer, adjusting speed, thinking about the seat belt, etc). Really, I just want to do my thing as a law abiding citizen, and not have to worry about talking to people who treat me like I'm a criminal just because it's after midnight (on a freaking weekend no less).

 

[garrula lingua]

Checking the welfare of driver/passengers is one reason to enter the car.

If the cops got a report of a woman's scream, etc.; if the car was parked in an odd spot.....you know best - they were talking to you.

Why was the cop cursing ? Did someone with you have an attitude problem ?


If the car was parked in an area/manner which allowed the cops to tow it, then they can search the car for ID. It's also common for police to do an inventory search of the car before they tow.

Your situation is weird. Even if the police had the legal right to do what they did, why did they bother doing a search/detaining you for 3 hours ????
Sorry, I can't figure it out. Maybe the police received a call about a crime being committed at that location ????
The bottom line I come to is: what was the harm ?
A delay, embarrassment, and lost keys.
On the other hand, maybe they had information of drug deals going on/ rape/robbery ?????? There are valid motives for what the cops did, but all anyone can do on the info you provided is guess at the motivation .

Sorry it happened, but maybe it was just being at the wrong place at the wrong time.

 

[CdwJava]

I'm starting to prefer an "emergency response only" system, where a cop can only get in the way of normal life if he sees blood, fire, corpses, psychotic driving (as in, switching between two lanes over and over, or, ramming the side of a building), or some other OBVIOUS INDICATORS.

That would make my job a HECK of a lot easier! I could just sit at the office and wait for the confessions to pour in!

What a cool thing! Reactive police work only! If we don't SEE a crime, we can't act! WAAAY too cool!

- Carl