Illegal traffic stop and search last night

[marko3132]

What is the name of your state? Michigan

I was pulled over and and searched without permission last night... Here is what happened.

Long story short, my friend was drunk and stupid. I was sober and driving him around. I realize this was a dumb thing to do, but he sees some people walking down the street and starts talking to them... they ask for a ride and he lets them in (man and woman)... While this was probably very dumb to allow strangers in the vehicle, it happened... and I did have my gun, so I still felt fairly safe. We drove around the block and came to the point where we were going to drop them off. It was just a two minute drive.

At that moment, a police car with three cops inside pulled up alongside us and aimed flashlights into my car... they did not know who my friend and I were, but as soon as they saw the other two individuals in the vehicle with us... they got out and asked all of us to step out of the vehicle.

I did... then I handed the officer my CCW. He immediately reached over and felt the gun on my hip... and grabbed it and removed it from my person without my permission. Another officer also put my friend in handcuffs for no aparent reason. Then one asked me if he could search the vehicle. I did not have any drugs, nor do I ever... but since there were two individuals in the vehicle that I had never met before, I did not know if they had anything illegal on them. For this reason, I told the officer he could not search my vehicle.

Within a minute or two... they entered the vehicle and begin searching through everything. He even opened the glove box in between my two seats and found my Blackhawk Serpa holster.

The cops were not rude or disrespectful, but they told me that the two individuals with us were "known drug dealers." But we did nothing illegal by giving them a ride down the block... so why should we be stopped, disarmed, and searched (without permission) just because those individuals happened to be in my car (no drugs or anything!).

Long story short... I told them they couldn't search my car, and they did it anyway. Did they break the law? After they found that the two individuals had nothing on them, they just let them (and us) leave... and no citations were issued.

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Before you reply... I already realize how stupid it was to allow strangers in my vehicle... so you don't have to re-iterate that. But I'm still concerned with the way the officers searched my vehicle. What happened to the fourth amendment? If I decide to hire a lawyer, what are the possible outcomes? Could the department be required to pay me for conducting the illegal search?

[CJane]

Originally Posted by marko3132

Could the department be required to pay me for conducting the illegal search?

I'm certain that Carl will correct me if I'm wrong...

But no. Your remedy for an illegal search (and seizure) is to have any evidence gathered (seized) during the search repressed and not allowed to be used to prosecute you.

Since there was no seizure (other than your gun which they presumably returned) there's no recourse.

I'm relatively certain that the officers could put forward a pretty strong case that they had cause to search your vehicle. You picked up two 'known drug dealers', circled the block with them, and were armed. Doesn't that sound the slightest bit like a reasonable person would think something hinky was going on?

[marko3132]

I suppose having two "known drug dealers" in the car might be probable cause for search... I don't know for certain, since I'm not a lawyer.. but maybe it's within their rights?

But having a gun should have nothing to do with it. They did not know I had a gun before they approached my vehicle... and it's within my second amendment right to have and carry it... I am licensed to carry it... so that shouldn't have anything to do with the search.

[Zigner]

You're just lucky they didn't find the drugs...

[CdwJava]

Originally Posted by marko3132

Long story short, my friend was drunk and stupid. I was sober and driving him around.

The best thing to do with drunk people is either leave them be, or take them straight home.

I realize this was a dumb thing to do, but he sees some people walking down the street and starts talking to them... they ask for a ride and he lets them in (man and woman)...

Wait ... I thought YOU were driving ... so, HE did not let them in - YOU did, right?

While this was probably very dumb to allow strangers in the vehicle, it happened... and I did have my gun, so I still felt fairly safe.

This is why I am opposed to freely issued CCWs. Too many people ASSUME that a gun = safe. It doesn't. A gun does you no good unless it is at the ready, and you are trained in how to use it. i carry a gun a lot, but I also do not engage in reckless or potentially dangerous activity off duty - like picking up strangers. Had one of them actually pulled a gun on you, how good would that gun have been? Most likely, it would have been stolen.

It's a good axiom to remember that a bad guy is usually going to act first ... he will have the drop on you, and he will likely be more inclined to use his weapon than you will be to use yours since he is less likely to have a conscience whereas you probably do have one. That causes YOU to hesitate.

We drove around the block and came to the point where we were going to drop them off. It was just a two minute drive.

From the outside looking in, that looks like a drug deal to me. You have just described characteristic drug deal activity that any experienced cop could articulate on the stand.

At that moment, a police car with three cops inside pulled up alongside us and aimed flashlights into my car... they did not know who my friend and I were, but as soon as they saw the other two individuals in the vehicle with us... they got out and asked all of us to step out of the vehicle.

Sounds like a vice or narcotics detail was on the prowl ... cops don't ride three to a car normally.

I did... then I handed the officer my CCW. He immediately reached over and felt the gun on my hip... and grabbed it and removed it from my person without my permission.

Tough. he could have removed it, or he could have proned you out with a gun in your ear. He would have been a fool to allow you to keep it until he sorted things out.

Your having a CCW does NOT suddenly make the cop absolutely safe in your presence. He is going to separate you from your gun, period. If he doesn't, then he is a fool.

Another officer also put my friend in handcuffs for no aparent reason.

The police are allowed to detain people in handcuffs - it's a safety thing.

Then one asked me if he could search the vehicle. I did not have any drugs, nor do I ever... but since there were two individuals in the vehicle that I had never met before, I did not know if they had anything illegal on them. For this reason, I told the officer he could not search my vehicle.

Already the cop is thinking dope deal ... so, he's not believing you.

The cops were not rude or disrespectful, but they told me that the two individuals with us were "known drug dealers." But we did nothing illegal by giving them a ride down the block... so why should we be stopped, disarmed, and searched (without permission) just because those individuals happened to be in my car (no drugs or anything!).

And your actions - combined with these two fellows apparent career path - might have given rise to sufficient cause to search the vehicle ... it depends on the laws and legal interpretations in your state. It might also depend on whether one or both of these fine fellows was on probation or parole, too.

Long story short... I told them they couldn't search my car, and they did it anyway. Did they break the law? After they found that the two individuals had nothing on them, they just let them (and us) leave... and no citations were issued.

The usual remedy for an unlawful search is the suppression of evidence. Some states may allow for a statutory civil remedy for a knowing and intentional unlawful search, but that's something only an attorney can answer for you. How much are you willing to spend to try and obtain a small payout for no damages?


- Carl

[Zigner]

One other thing to consider is that the "known drug dealers" may well have been on probation...search is perfectly legal.

[marko3132]

ok.. thanks for the info. sounds like the officers acted within their limits...

[seniorjudge]

Originally Posted by marko3132

ok.. thanks for the info. sounds like the officers acted within their limits...

Thank you for not abusing the folks who gave you accurate (not to mention FREE) legal advice.

[xylene]

Per the MSP CCW website the police are allowed to examine your weapon and hold it for thew duration of any encounter, for basically any investigatory reason

As far as the search, nothiong came of it. If illegal, it isn't relevant

As far as the stop. The stop was not illegal

[marko3132]

I'm still not sure though...

What some of you are getting to is that if if the police know that someone has been arrested for drugs multiple times in the past, from then on they can just search anywhere the person is? Innocent until proven guilty does not go away just because a person has in the past been arrested for a crime. If the police had no evidence that a drug deal was going down, how do they have sufficient cause to search?

I don't care if I have Charles Manson in my car, if he is out of jail and legal, you don't have authority to search my car unless you have more evidence than just I have a known criminal in my car.

[marko3132]

I am not a lawyer.

Known drug dealers have nothing to do with it. Drug dealers in the back of the car have as many rights as if they were driving the car. Same goes for you, driving or riding with a drug dealer who isn't giving the indications needed for a Terry Stop.

Remember that nothing that would have permitted the stop in the first place. No traffic offense, nothing.

Still seems like an illegal stop in the first place. Not just the subsequent search.

These officers are jeopardizing enforcement of the laws. Sooner or later a court is going to let a real criminal get away.

It is my understanding that if the non-consensual stop is illegal in the first place, then the search would be illegal, and anything discovered during an illegal search would be susceptible to being ruled inadmissable evidence. Meaning that even if the officers had found 5 kilos of cocaine in the car, everybody would walk.

I might check with an attorney or someone knowledgeable about the law to increase my certainty, and file a formal complaint. Can't have the police rousting citizens. Can't have the police making illegal searches. Can't have the police performing illegal searches that then, if something is found, forces them to lie to prevent the evidence being ruled inadmissable.

And especially can't have the police doing improper police work that results in criminals getting away.

[Zigner]

Originally Posted by marko3132

I don't care if I have Charles Manson in my car, if he is out of jail and legal, you don't have authority to search my car unless you have more evidence than just I have a known criminal in my car.

If Charlie gets out with probation terms, or gets parole, he CAN be stopped at any time, and the vehicle he is in CAN be searched (for any reason, or no reason).

Again, the stop was legal. The search was legal. Even if the search was NOT legal, the stop was STILL legal.

[PJ Weber]

Known drug dealers have nothing to do with it. Drug dealers in the back of the car have as many rights as if they were driving the car.

Not if the Drug dealers are on probation

Be careful who YOU let into your vehicle

[Zigner]

Originally Posted by PJ Weber

Not if the Drug dealers are on probation

Be careful who YOU let into your vehicle

Boy I'm glad YOU said it, because, obviously, it didn't matter coming from me

One other thing to consider. The police had probable cause to believe that a crime was in progress (another reason the stop is valid and the search too!)

[PJ Weber]

Boy I'm glad YOU said it, because, obviously, it didn't matter coming from me

Mea Culpa

I didn't see the 'P word' until I read your response for a third time

I was just amused about the Manson scenario happening