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Incredibly confused, how is this legal? (Vermont)

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Jmall187

Junior Member
I live in the state of Vermont, in Washington County.

This is a problem both in family, and in criminal court. I am posting it in criminal court because it seems like the more egregious accusation is criminal in nature.

Background:
My name is John, I am the father of a beautiful four year old girl named Alexandria. Her mother has a history of mental health issues. She spent the first year of Alexandria's life in bed the majority of the time claiming "postpartum depression." I supported her through this. She told me she had bipolar (and acted as if she did). I supported her through this. I did everything that I could to be a caring father, and handle the multitude of lies, outbursts, and neglect the the mother of my child showed on a daily basis. I did not give up. I stuck with her through all of this.

It came to close two years ago when Alexandria's mother (I will just call her R from now on) took Alexandria from our home, and denied contact for over two months. This was probably the hardest two months of my life, as there is a law in Vermont that I was unaware of... A law that states that simply being on the birth certificate is not enough. That I have to actually establish parentage because R and I were not married.

I went through the long process of establishing parentage, and was eventually granted a court hearing to determine the custody of our daughter. We had a guardian ad litem, as well as DCF (Social Services) involved in the case.

The final order in this case was court granting me FULL LEGAL and FULL PHYSICAL custody of Alexandria, with court ordered VISITATIONS with R from Monday-Thursday evening. This left me with Alexandria about 60% of the time.

Ever since that court ruling two years ago R and her friends have made my life hell. They make some false allegation against me every three weeks or so by calling the police, social services, or just about any authority figure they can get to listen to them. These false allegations have never amounted to anything until 9/15/15.

Tuesday before law enforcement:
On Tuesday the 15th, at about 6:45am, I showed up at R's house to pick Alexandria up for school. It was her first day, and was a previously established pick up date/time/location.

I brought along a friend of mine, to be a witness in case R tried anything. I believed this to be necessary after the many prior false allegations made against me.

I knock on the door, R shouts through "just a minute!"

I wait 30 minutes, before R finally comes out with Alexandria.

R hands me Alex. I walk quickly to the car, because it is now 7:25, and I have to somehow get Alex to school 15 minutes away within 10 minutes.

R yells to Alexandria and says "What about my hugs and kisses!" Alexandria, being a four year old, yells for her mother. I say "Sorry, no time, we're already late." and put Alexandria in the car.

R runs after us, and at this point in screaming. This is just getting Alexandria more agitated, so she continues yelling for her mother. I quickly buckle Alexandria up, and we leave.

I bring Alexandria to school.

I pick Alexandria up from school.

I go about my day normally, the exception being that it is a Tuesday and I have Alexandria. R and I had previously established that she would pick Alex up from me that day when she got out of work.

Tuesday Law Enforcment:
At about 5:30pm Tuesday the 15th, the Vermont State police show up at my door.

They serve me with a "Temporary Order: Relief from Abuse."

The temporary order states that the court (without holding a hearing, speaking to witnesses, or speaking to myself) has found that I have abused R and that there was immediate danger of further harm. There is an ex parte order attached dictating that I not be in contact with R unless it is about our daughter.

Further in the court documentation, it shows R's initial claims/requests and police affidavit.

In both the police affidavit, and the paperwork she filed at the courthouseR she claims that while picking up Alexandria earlier that morning, at one point "turned around and grabbed her throat."

I find this odd, but figure I will deal with it later. So I sign the Temporary Order.

The officer then says to me: "Now turn around and place your hands behind your back, there is a warrant out for your arrest." Despite being baffled, I comply completely.

I spent the night Tuesday in a holding cell at the local PD, before being arraigned the following day. (During this there were quite a few strange police behaviors that I will likely discuss later as need be. Things like lying to my family about the court house I'd end up at, not feeding me, withholding any phone privileges etc.)

At the arraignment I am assigned a public defender (for the arraignment only, not for continued representation afterwards).

During the arraignment the state prosecutor attempts to hold me on $5,000 bail, as well as a 24 hour curfew, and several other ridiculous conditions. My public defender bargains, and is able to get it down to 5PM to 8AM curfew, and an unsecured appearance bond. During this whole arraignment, I am not allowed to speak at all.

I am then released from custody at the courthouse (a sister courthouse from the one my trial will actually be held in due to some training that day) without my phone, without money, and without any way home.

The question:
First off let me state that any legal advice in this matter would be much appreciated.

My specific question however, is how is it even possible that on somebody's word alone that there is reasonable cause for arrest and detainment? I have no priors. I have no history of violence, while R has a proven and regular history of mental health issues and reporting false allegations against me. Why is it that I am now facing felony assault charges and family court proceedings because of trumped up false allegations? Why is it that neither my witness, nor myself were contacted at all prior to my arrest? How can this be legal?
 


Silverplum

Senior Member
I live in the state of Vermont, in Washington County.

This is a problem both in family, and in criminal court. I am posting it in criminal court because it seems like the more egregious accusation is criminal in nature.

Background:
My name is John, I am the father of a beautiful four year old girl named Alexandria. Her mother has a history of mental health issues. She spent the first year of Alexandria's life in bed the majority of the time claiming "postpartum depression." I supported her through this. She told me she had bipolar (and acted as if she did). I supported her through this. I did everything that I could to be a caring father, and handle the multitude of lies, outbursts, and neglect the the mother of my child showed on a daily basis. I did not give up. I stuck with her through all of this.

It came to close two years ago when Alexandria's mother (I will just call her R from now on) took Alexandria from our home, and denied contact for over two months. This was probably the hardest two months of my life, as there is a law in Vermont that I was unaware of... A law that states that simply being on the birth certificate is not enough. That I have to actually establish parentage because R and I were not married.

I went through the long process of establishing parentage, and was eventually granted a court hearing to determine the custody of our daughter. We had a guardian ad litem, as well as DCF (Social Services) involved in the case.

The final order in this case was court granting me FULL LEGAL and FULL PHYSICAL custody of Alexandria, with court ordered VISITATIONS with R from Monday-Thursday evening. This left me with Alexandria about 60% of the time.

Ever since that court ruling two years ago R and her friends have made my life hell. They make some false allegation against me every three weeks or so by calling the police, social services, or just about any authority figure they can get to listen to them. These false allegations have never amounted to anything until 9/15/15.

Tuesday before law enforcement:
On Tuesday the 15th, at about 6:45am, I showed up at R's house to pick Alexandria up for school. It was her first day, and was a previously established pick up date/time/location.

I brought along a friend of mine, to be a witness in case R tried anything. I believed this to be necessary after the many prior false allegations made against me.

I knock on the door, R shouts through "just a minute!"

I wait 30 minutes, before R finally comes out with Alexandria.

R hands me Alex. I walk quickly to the car, because it is now 7:25, and I have to somehow get Alex to school 15 minutes away within 10 minutes.

R yells to Alexandria and says "What about my hugs and kisses!" Alexandria, being a four year old, yells for her mother. I say "Sorry, no time, we're already late." and put Alexandria in the car.

R runs after us, and at this point in screaming. This is just getting Alexandria more agitated, so she continues yelling for her mother. I quickly buckle Alexandria up, and we leave.

I bring Alexandria to school.

I pick Alexandria up from school.

I go about my day normally, the exception being that it is a Tuesday and I have Alexandria. R and I had previously established that she would pick Alex up from me that day when she got out of work.

Tuesday Law Enforcment:
At about 5:30pm Tuesday the 15th, the Vermont State police show up at my door.

They serve me with a "Temporary Order: Relief from Abuse."

The temporary order states that the court (without holding a hearing, speaking to witnesses, or speaking to myself) has found that I have abused R and that there was immediate danger of further harm. There is an ex parte order attached dictating that I not be in contact with R unless it is about our daughter.

Further in the court documentation, it shows R's initial claims/requests and police affidavit.

In both the police affidavit, and the paperwork she filed at the courthouseR she claims that while picking up Alexandria earlier that morning, at one point "turned around and grabbed her throat."

I find this odd, but figure I will deal with it later. So I sign the Temporary Order.

The officer then says to me: "Now turn around and place your hands behind your back, there is a warrant out for your arrest." Despite being baffled, I comply completely.

I spent the night Tuesday in a holding cell at the local PD, before being arraigned the following day. (During this there were quite a few strange police behaviors that I will likely discuss later as need be. Things like lying to my family about the court house I'd end up at, not feeding me, withholding any phone privileges etc.)

At the arraignment I am assigned a public defender (for the arraignment only, not for continued representation afterwards).

During the arraignment the state prosecutor attempts to hold me on $5,000 bail, as well as a 24 hour curfew, and several other ridiculous conditions. My public defender bargains, and is able to get it down to 5PM to 8AM curfew, and an unsecured appearance bond. During this whole arraignment, I am not allowed to speak at all.

I am then released from custody at the courthouse (a sister courthouse from the one my trial will actually be held in due to some training that day) without my phone, without money, and without any way home.

The question:
First off let me state that any legal advice in this matter would be much appreciated.

My specific question however, is how is it even possible that on somebody's word alone that there is reasonable cause for arrest and detainment? I have no priors. I have no history of violence, while R has a proven and regular history of mental health issues and reporting false allegations against me. Why is it that I am now facing felony assault charges and family court proceedings because of trumped up false allegations? Why is it that neither my witness, nor myself were contacted at all prior to my arrest? How can this be legal?
We can't see into the minds of people in Vermont, therefore we cannot answer "WHY?" questions.

Of course it's legal. It happened. Now you need an attorney, and to stop wasting time on asking WHY. You'll likely walk away from this: I speak from a very similar experience. :cool:
 

Zigner

Senior Member, Non-Attorney
There is no way anyone here can answer regarding the specifics of your case. I would suggest that you contact an attorney immediately.

(And, yes, I'm echoing Silverplum's advice, but that's only because I'm a slower reader)
 

davew128

Senior Member
We can't see into the minds of people in Vermont, therefore we cannot answer "WHY?" questions.
The last person who tried to understand Vermont people was a psychiatrist from Chicago named Bob Hartley. He ended up dreaming he was an innkeeper in Vermont surrounded by some rather odd characters.
 

not2cleverRed

Obvious Observer
The restraining order was ex parte. By its nature, it's temporary, so you'll get a chance to show up in court. The law allows her to do this because if someone really feels that they are in danger, they need immediate protection. What you signed is most likely verification that you have been served notice of the restraining order and that there will be a hearing on whether to make it permanent.

The other... well, apparently whatever story she spun was convincing enough that they believe a crime was committed. Perhaps she had marks on her to sell the story. Whatever. Perhaps there was no mention of your witness in her story. No matter how whackadoodle you think she is, if someone in law enforcement thinks she's credible and in danger, they can legally arrest you without a warrant in Vermont. Because you know, whackadoodle can pass for traumatized.

Yes, you need a lawyer. Hopefully your witness is credible.

Be patient.

This too shall pass... In the future, have pick up/drop offs moved to highly public places with many neutral witnesses available. Some people suggest police stations... But any place where there are credible witnesses would do.
 

quincy

Senior Member
I live in the state of Vermont, in Washington County.

... They serve me with a "Temporary Order: Relief from Abuse." ...

... Further in the court documentation, it shows R's initial claims/requests and police affidavit. ...

... The question:
First off let me state that any legal advice in this matter would be much appreciated.

My specific question however, is how is it even possible that on somebody's word alone that there is reasonable cause for arrest and detainment? I have no priors. I have no history of violence, while R has a proven and regular history of mental health issues and reporting false allegations against me. Why is it that I am now facing felony assault charges and family court proceedings because of trumped up false allegations? Why is it that neither my witness, nor myself were contacted at all prior to my arrest? How can this be legal?
At the bottom of my post are two links, the first from the American Bar Association (2009) with information on the laws of all states on domestic violence civil protection orders and the standards of proof necessary to support the issuance of a permanent order, and the second to the Vermont laws on protection orders.

I urge you to have an attorney with you when you appear at the hearing on the temporary order. Far too often judges will err on the side of caution and issue permanent orders to prevent any possible harm that may come to one or more of the parties involved. I say "far too often" because false reports of abuse to obtain protection orders is a tactic often used by warring parents in divorce/custody/visitation matters.


The attorney you see can help you structure your arguments so that R.'s false accusations have less of a chance of being accepted by the court as true.

At the hearing, Alex' mom R. must prove by a preponderance of the evidence that what she claims is true. Preponderance of the evidence means that what R. presents as evidence to the court must be more convincing than what you present to the court in the way of evidence. You will want your witness with you in court to testify to what occurred at the pick-up that led to R. filing for the order. You will want to discuss with your attorney any other evidence that might be helpful to you.

It is important to note that making FALSE statements is a crime punishable by fines or jail time.

Here are the links:

http://www.americanbar.org/content/dam/aba/migrated/domviol/pdfs/Standards_of_Proof_by_State.authcheckdam.pdf

http://legislature.vermont.gov/statutes/section/15/021/01103/

Good luck.
 

Jmall187

Junior Member
Thank you all, I appreciate it.

This happened so fast, and the whole thing is confusing. I have family court on Tuesday for the temporary order. I was going to go pro se. The problem is that lawyers are just so incredibly expensive. Are public defenders worth it? I have seen mixed reviews. Some claiming that it's better to go pro se because a public defender won't try. I suppose it differs from attorney to attorney.
 

CdwJava

Senior Member
Note that you do not get a public defender for the Family Court matter on the restraining order. If you do not have an attorney to assist you, the odds are very good that the order will remain in place - perhaps with some small modifications ... maybe.
 

not2cleverRed

Obvious Observer
Thank you all, I appreciate it.

This happened so fast, and the whole thing is confusing. I have family court on Tuesday for the temporary order. I was going to go pro se. The problem is that lawyers are just so incredibly expensive. Are public defenders worth it? I have seen mixed reviews. Some claiming that it's better to go pro se because a public defender won't try. I suppose it differs from attorney to attorney.
Even more expensive is the cost of going in there without a lawyer.
 

quincy

Senior Member
Thank you all, I appreciate it.

This happened so fast, and the whole thing is confusing. I have family court on Tuesday for the temporary order. I was going to go pro se. The problem is that lawyers are just so incredibly expensive. Are public defenders worth it? I have seen mixed reviews. Some claiming that it's better to go pro se because a public defender won't try. I suppose it differs from attorney to attorney.
I believe it is a mistake to go to the hearing without an attorney. While cost is always a consideration, it should not be the major consideration when faced with the consequences of having a protective order issued against you.

Following is a link to the Equal Justice Foundation on the effects of a civil protection order, this from a man's perspective. I suggest you read through what is provided, aware in advance that - while the information is good - there is a bias in what is presented.

http://www.dvmen.org/dv-13.htm

When you appear at the hearing (with or without an attorney but preferably with one), your appearance and your attitude matter a lot. It will be the judge's first impression of you. Make it a good one.

You will want to dress professionally (no jeans or tee-shirts, no baseball cap) and you will want to smell "clean" (no odor of smoke or heavy cologne).

You want to show the judge with both your appearance and with your words and actions that you respect his court.

You should be polite to everyone. You will not want to react with anger or irritation or with a rolling of your eyes to any lies your daughter's mom might spout, as these can indicate to the judge that a protective order is warranted. Do not interrupt. You should not direct any comments to R. at all. Address only the judge when the judge gives you the opportunity to speak. Respond to any lies that are told with your evidence that refutes the lies (your witness statement and any and all other evidence you have).

Most people are intimidated when in court before a judge for the first time. This can make them say or do stupid things that can affect their case. Having an attorney speak for you can relieve your initial nervousness. The attorney can guide you through the hearing. An attorney is your best chance of coming out of the hearing without a protection order or, at the very least, a mutual restraining order which will affect R.'s behavior as much as it does yours.

Good luck.
 
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TigerD

Senior Member
Thank you all, I appreciate it.

This happened so fast, and the whole thing is confusing. I have family court on Tuesday for the temporary order. I was going to go pro se. The problem is that lawyers are just so incredibly expensive. Are public defenders worth it? I have seen mixed reviews. Some claiming that it's better to go pro se because a public defender won't try. I suppose it differs from attorney to attorney.
You absolutely need a lawyer. Pro Se in court is just a slow way of saying everything she said is one hundred percent true.

The average public defender sees more criminal case in a year then many private attorneys do in a career.

TD

(left out an important word...)
 
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quincy

Senior Member
... The average public defender sees more criminal case in a year then many private attorneys do in a career ...
I am not sure from where the misperception about public defenders comes. Perhaps if public defenders were called "public attorneys" instead that would eliminate some of the confusion?

It is true that in many states public defenders have such large case loads that they may not be able to devote as much time to any one case as a private attorney could or would. But this does not necessarily mean that there is not good representation. In fact, because public defenders spend so much time in court, they often know the prosecutors and the judges well and this is often an important advantage.
 

littlebiddle

Junior Member
Agree with Your Thoughts on a Public Defender

I am not sure from where the misperception about public defenders comes. Perhaps if public defenders were called "public attorneys" instead that would eliminate some of the confusion?

It is true that in many states public defenders have such large case loads that they may not be able to devote as much time to any one case as a private attorney could or would. But this does not necessarily mean that there is not good representation. In fact, because public defenders spend so much time in court, they often know the prosecutors and the judges well and this is often an important advantage.
When my now-22 year old daughter was 17, she was charged with minor consumption of alcohol. Quite literally, she blew a .001 - she had no prior legal history - but she was still guilty of consuming alcohol, no matter how little, and they were going to charge her. She was assigned a public defender and he:

1. Conducted himself in an extremely professional manner
2. Argued persuasively and passionately on my daughter's behalf
3. Demonstrated intelligence and knowledge of his craft
4. Is someone I would have hired on the spot.

He got the charge against her dropped and she was put on some kind of *don't get caught being STUPID again* program for six months or so. (I don't remember how long, I just know she didn't get in trouble again.) She needed some kind of consequence, I just didn't want her to have anything on her record at 17 if possible. I'm pretty sure he called in a favor to get it done.

I just know that had we NOT had the public defender, she would have been charged with, and found guilty of, illegal consumption. That's how they roll in our county. And she was guilty.
 

quincy

Senior Member
I believe the experience you and your daughter had with the public defender tends to be the rule rather than the exception. I like to think that is the case, at any rate.

Public defenders often trade in their chance to earn far more money in the private sector for the opportunity to help those who deserve equally good legal representation in court but whose finances limit their ability to pay.

I am glad all worked out well for your daughter, littlebiddle. We don't hear stories like yours on this forum nearly often enough.
 

Indiana Filer

Senior Member
Most first time juvenile offenders arrested for Illegal Consumption in my IN county get that "Don't be stupid again," program, known officially as a Program of Informal Adjustment. As far as public defenders go, the ones I work with daily are excellent attorneys. They fight as hard, or harder, for their clients than do some of those $$$ attorneys.
 

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