IS this legal for police to do?

[bemused_sammie]

California

from: [url]http://thenewspaper.com/news/23/2302.asp[/url]

California: Police Raid Car Enthusiast Gathering, Generate Revenue
Police raid Riverside, California parking lot to issue modified car tickets at local car enthusiast gathering.

Nine police agencies in Riverside, California sent more than one hundred police officers to surround a gathering of automotive enthusiasts. Owners of imported sport compact cars had gathered at the Canyon Crossing shopping center on Friday night to swap stories, talk about their passion for cars and show off the latest enhancements to their rides. At around 11pm police surprised participants by blocking all exits with fifty police cruisers. Officers then began a warrantless search and interrogation operation of the 150 vehicles that were present.

"If you're not into street racing, why would you need that?" Riverside Police Traffic Sergeant Skip Showalter asked an enthusiast during a similar crackdown last year. "Why would you want more power going to your car?"

Police issued a total of forty-eight tickets for "engine modifications" with police accusing the owners of the parked vehicles of being street racers. Another fifty tickets were issued for paperwork violations, dark window tinting and lack of a front license plate. The most revenue, however, will be generated from the fees imposed on twenty vehicles that were confiscated. Despite labeling the parking lot raid as taking place at a "street racing venue," Riverside Police offered no evidence that any street racing actually took place.

Across the state, gas tax funds are regularly used to fund similar crackdowns that generate big revenue. In 2004, the California Highway Patrol issued a total of 101,553 "modified car" citations worth $10.5 million according to CHP data obtained by TheNewspaper.

In 2005, the California Office of Traffic Safety handed Riverside Police $400,000 in state and federal gas tax revenue for the "establishment of a regional task force to conduct enforcement operations targeting street racing, modified vehicles and speed contests," according to the Riverside Police Department's June 2007 Chief's Report. The department received another $503,268 grant for selective enforcement efforts in 2008. The other agencies that participated in the raid include the California Highway Patrol, Riverside County Sheriff's Department, and police from Baldwin Park, Fontana, Irwindale, Moreno Valley, Ontario and Mount San Jacinto Community College.

Now I know they cannot search if consent refused, and in my cop days, we could not do such a thing without it all getting thrown out of court. Heck, we could not even go onto private property like a parking lot to issue more than fire land and handicap space parking violations.

There was not racing going on, just kids have a car club meet, with their vehicles parked. Gesh, what a gustopo-like state and country we have become when kids can't even hang out with there friends in a parking lot. The issue was not them loitering, the issue is the fact the police entrapped them and them forced searches upon them for possible vehicle code violations. They only had thier "suspicion and instinct" not probable cause....

And yes, I am interested as my son has my car in a car club. I don't want them harrassing him, but I want him to know his rights. (BTW, I am legally a North Dakota Resident and down here on Vacation. The car is registered in North Dakota, but when I am here, he takes it to his car club meets. He does race it, but only at legal races.

[outonbail]

I live in Riverside and this crack down was sort of a talk of the town subject within certain groups. There are several drive-thru hamburger type of establishments where folks gather one Friday or Saturday night a month to basically show of their cars and trucks.
These unofficial meets have people of all ages and all walks of life attending, who either have their own vehicle or just show up to look at all the vehicles. It is one of the last great things for folks to do as a family, without having to pay thirty dollars for every family member to get into the event. Whenever I have out of state guests, I usually take them to one of these meets and they really enjoy them.

99% of these events and the people who attend are not there to arrange any street racing or illegal drag racing. But you always have one in every crowd who has to burn their tires to the rim when pulling out.
Most of the actual street racing events, in fact all the events I've ever heard of, are held in out of city areas often at new developments where new roads have just been constructed. They are a word of mouth type of event and will go on from like midnight until three in the morning. I attended one several years back, just to watch and I was pretty amazed at the fact that these kids could organize what is certainly an illegal event and continue to get away with it for weeks on end, without the police hearing of it. Until there is an accident or someone is killed, then they always find a new spot to race.

But there is a big difference between these racing events and the club type of meets that the police pulled this "operation street racer" crackdown. But they got the grant money and they must justify this windfall of cash.

I guess the operation is basically legal since they are citing people for illegal equipment on their vehicles. If a vehicle sounds modified that would give them probable cause to check under the hood. The window tinting is obviously visable, but I believe it is a fix-it ticket that can be dismissed if they correct the probloem. I may be wrong, but I think they still dismiss them on proof of correction.
I don't know how they get away with keeping everyone detained in the parking lot for an hour or two, while they wait their turn to be inspected. But it's always under the ruse that they are saving lives with these crack downs and inspection drills.

I would agree with this reason if they were doing these raids out where the racing actually takes place. I've never heard of anyone racing at the hamburger stand. Too much traffic and not a long enough straight section of road to even try.

There were also a good number of citizens who were there to buy a hamburger. Mom and dad in the station wagon with the screaming rug rats, spilling their milk shakes and throwing up while they waited to get inspected. I'm sure they weren't thrilled with this operation.

Not so sure why they needed departments from as far away as Baldwin Park and Irwindale involved in this caper either?

So I'll wait for Carl's take on these operations and the illegal implications, if any. He's certainly the one to ask.

[Raptoer]

Excessive? yes. Illegal? probably not.

Cars do not have as strong of protection from searches as houses do, and do not necessarily require a warrant.

The police probably watched too many movies where fifty cops raid a bunch of car enthusiasts and a giant chase ensues.

The people who got caught and fined broke the law, they illegally modified their cars. However the accusations of street racing are pretty bogus. As a generalization, men in their teens and twenties (and into 30+) have this fascination with cars that have a lot of power. The line about why cars would need that much power is just bogus, why do people buy porches? (To be honest I don't know why people do, I prefer my normal lil' civic) Just because people own powerful cars does not make them street racers.

[bemused_sammie]

Originally Posted by outonbail

I live in Riverside and this crack down was sort of a talk of the town subject within certain groups. There are several drive-thru hamburger type of establishments where folks gather one Friday or Saturday night a month to basically show of their cars and trucks.
These unofficial meets have people of all ages and all walks of life attending, who either have their own vehicle or just show up to look at all the vehicles. It is one of the last great things for folks to do as a family, without having to pay thirty dollars for every family member to get into the event. Whenever I have out of state guests, I usually take them to one of these meets and they really enjoy them.

99% of these events and the people who attend are not there to arrange any street racing or illegal drag racing. But you always have one in every crowd who has to burn their tires to the rim when pulling out.
Most of the actual street racing events, in fact all the events I've ever heard of, are held in out of city areas often at new developments where new roads have just been constructed. They are a word of mouth type of event and will go on from like midnight until three in the morning. I attended one several years back, just to watch and I was pretty amazed at the fact that these kids could organize what is certainly an illegal event and continue to get away with it for weeks on end, without the police hearing of it. Until there is an accident or someone is killed, then they always find a new spot to race.

But there is a big difference between these racing events and the club type of meets that the police pulled this "operation street racer" crackdown. But they got the grant money and they must justify this windfall of cash.

I guess the operation is basically legal since they are citing people for illegal equipment on their vehicles. If a vehicle sounds modified that would give them probable cause to check under the hood. The window tinting is obviously visable, but I believe it is a fix-it ticket that can be dismissed if they correct the probloem. I may be wrong, but I think they still dismiss them on proof of correction.
I don't know how they get away with keeping everyone detained in the parking lot for an hour or two, while they wait their turn to be inspected. But it's always under the ruse that they are saving lives with these crack downs and inspection drills.

I would agree with this reason if they were doing these raids out where the racing actually takes place. I've never heard of anyone racing at the hamburger stand. Too much traffic and not a long enough straight section of road to even try.

There were also a good number of citizens who were there to buy a hamburger. Mom and dad in the station wagon with the screaming rug rats, spilling their milk shakes and throwing up while they waited to get inspected. I'm sure they weren't thrilled with this operation.

Not so sure why they needed departments from as far away as Baldwin Park and Irwindale involved in this caper either?

So I'll wait for Carl's take on these operations and the illegal implications, if any. He's certainly the one to ask.

I grew up in Riverside, and I know exactly what you are talking about regarding the hamburger joints and the car meets. They were fun times. If the cops showed up, it was to look at all the nice cars and neat things the owner did to their pride. sure a few did the dumb burnout as they came or went, those desrved a tic for expidition of speed but I bet 99.9% of the cops there the night of this gustopo patrol night remember them and participated in them too. I find it unreal that it is illegal to modify anything on your car these days. I do not see the state paying my car or insurance payments.....

But they pulled all these departments in for funding reasons, and just think of all the overtime these officers will get for their little lockdown of suspects criminal ( yeah, they treated the kids and adults as such just for making a peaceful gathering...) I feel like saying they can all come meet on my property of 14 acres in the unincorporated countryside and the cops can lick my dot. People need to allowed their rights of freedom to peacefully assemble and for free at that without worrying about the harrassing tactics of law enforcement.

I just think it is wrong and a violation of our civil rights. When did it turn illegal to enjoy your own vehicle and ake it how you want it. I am sorry, I am just frustrated over the event, not with anpyone here.

Thats how I feel at least.

[bemused_sammie]

Originally Posted by Raptoer

Excessive? yes. Illegal? probably not.

Cars do not have as strong of protection from searches as houses do, and do not necessarily require a warrant.

The police probably watched too many movies where fifty cops raid a bunch of car enthusiasts and a giant chase ensues.

The people who got caught and fined broke the law, they illegally modified their cars. However the accusations of street racing are pretty bogus. As a generalization, men in their teens and twenties (and into 30+) have this fascination with cars that have a lot of power. The line about why cars would need that much power is just bogus, why do people buy porches? (To be honest I don't know why people do, I prefer my normal lil' civic) Just because people own powerful cars does not make them street racers.

Well, lots of these folks don't do the illegal street racing; they fear impoundment, fines and such. Of course there still are those that like to do the illegal races on the backroads like Bridge street in the middle of the countryside andit is a paved road. As for my son's car club, they only do racing at legal races and they pay to participate. These are folks though that cannot afford a car of every occasion. I just do not understand why it is illegal to modify your own property so long as you are not making it unsafe and these peoples cars aren't unsafe. As you put it, Porsches are powerful, it is not illegal to drive them nor a dodge charger, heck, my 1991 5.8l Bronco is very powerful and it is modified but the modifications were done long ago before this modifications being illegal law came along. If I were the ones in the parking lot, I would roll u my windows, get out, locking the car behind me and refuse to even start my engine without a warrant. What is their probable cause to force me to do so, a nice paint job and wheels? I don't think so.

What I want to knowis why is it illegal to modify your own property in this state? As long as the exhaust conforms to the smog laws, that should be what matters, not if someone changed out with better coils and shocks or a different, higher quality exhaust system. This state is turning more communistic every day. Lets all start driving only one car model, with only one color available and have to wear all black clothing while we are at it.... lol I recall I had a Volkswagon Carrodo, it had a supercharger on it when I bought and that was legal, yet now adding one after driving off the lot and after market is illegal? My sisters brand new dodge came with one stock, yet if she added afterwords by a non-dealer it would not be? That is just robbing hard working folks and a wrong against the citizens, since when did we lose out right to choose?

I appreciate your comments, they put more and more thoughts into my brain lol. Seriously though, I do appreciate them.

[justalayman]

Hopefully Carl will address this post. He would be the best source of correct info on this site.

but, until he does;

California does seem to have some laws that allow intrusive investigation of altered vehicles. The article also does not address the point of the enthusiasts having permission of the property owner to assemble on the property.

If there was no permission to assemble as such, these folks were tresspassing and loitering. That allows a lot of leeway for the police actions that followed.

Now I know they cannot search if consent refused, and in my cop days, we could not do such a thing without it all getting thrown out of court.

My (poor) understanding of Cali law leads me to believe they do have legal authority to inspect a vehicle for illegal alterations with little justification.

If these folks were tresspassing, then that opens the door for request for registrations and the like. The absence of front license plates, all by itself, gives rise to allowing the detentions as well as overly darkened windows if those cars diplayed plates.

While it may seem inappropriate on its face, there would appear to be many justifications for the actions even though they do seem to appear a bit over zealous.

What I want to knowis why is it illegal to modify your own property in this state? As long as the exhaust conforms to the smog laws, that should be what matters, not if someone changed out with better coils and shocks or a different, higher quality exhaust system.

Sure its legal, as long as it is not illegal. California is obviously one of the most restrictive states when it comes to automobiles and as such, has the most stringent laws preventing vehicle alterations that affect emmissions. ANY exhaust system alteration can change emmissions output. I would suggest that the mere observation of an altered exhaust system gives warrant to the police to investigate the legality of that system. Could be wrong but if I am, I don;t think I am far off.

If you want to deal with this properly and avoid unwanted attention, I would suggest you research the laws very thoroughly. Californias laws are available on the internet.

[CdwJava]

Originally Posted by bemused_sammie

Now I know they cannot search if consent refused, and in my cop days, we could not do such a thing without it all getting thrown out of court.

Unless, of course, there was good cause for the search.

Heck, we could not even go onto private property like a parking lot to issue more than fire land and handicap space parking violations.

So, your "cop days" were not in California, then?

A private parking lot accessible to the public for commercial ventures (such as a mall, store, or shopping center lot) is still subject to police contact and many elements of the Vehicle Code still apply there.

There was not racing going on, just kids have a car club meet, with their vehicles parked.

And, if they were illegally modified vehicles, then they would have to have been towed there. How many were?

Not to mention these impromptu meeting places are often done without the permission of the property owner, and often involve conducting or planning other illegal activity.

Gesh, what a gustopo-like state and country we have become when kids can't even hang out with there friends in a parking lot.

They are free to hang at mom's house - not someone else's property.

Where I live and work, these "car enthusiast" gatherings have frequently resulted in fights, stabbings, a shooting, racing, alcohol and drugs, etc.

The issue was not them loitering, the issue is the fact the police entrapped them and them forced searches upon them for possible vehicle code violations.

The police "entrapped" them?

Do you have the foggiest idea what "entrapment" is?

Just where WERE you a cop?

He does race it, but only at legal races.

Not many of those out here unless it is at a track.


- Carl

[bemused_sammie]

Originally Posted by CdwJava

Unless, of course, there was good cause for the search.


So, your "cop days" were not in California, then?

A private parking lot accessible to the public for commercial ventures (such as a mall, store, or shopping center lot) is still subject to police contact and many elements of the Vehicle Code still apply there.


And, if they were illegally modified vehicles, then they would have to have been towed there. How many were?

Not to mention these impromptu meeting places are often done without the permission of the property owner, and often involve conducting or planning other illegal activity.


They are free to hang at mom's house - not someone else's property.

Where I live and work, these "car enthusiast" gatherings have frequently resulted in fights, stabbings, a shooting, racing, alcohol and drugs, etc.


The police "entrapped" them?

Do you have the foggiest idea what "entrapment" is?

Just where WERE you a cop?


Not many of those out here unless it is at a track.


- Carl

I was a deputy in Riverside County and in Solana Beach. We could not enter private property unless to patrol the fire lanes and handocap spaces. We couldn't even write a vehicle violation like a missing front plate or expired tabs while the vehicle was on the private property unless the property own gave us explict rights to do such.

And they did trap in patrons by blocking of the entrances and exits. They also entraped them by feeding them leading questions to get them to say stuff they did not have to answer. But then again, California does not recognixe teh federal statute of Entrapment. Instead it uses the objective test.

And, anyone has the right to parkin a shopping center so long as they make purchases, or look to do so, even if they don't buy anything. Even if someone just buys a drink and sits out in their car reading and relaxing until the drink is gone, they are allowed to do that. If they go back and get some fires a bit later, they still are not loitering. if not we would all be loitering just about everyday.

to the point, I appreciate you comments but do not agree with them. I will still wait for a true legal answer, thank though

[justalayman]

Originally Posted by bemused_sammie

to the point, I appreciate you comments but do not agree with them. I will still wait for a true legal answer, thank though

you got a "legal" answer. Just because it isn't what you believe to be correct does not alter the validity of the answer.

entrapment

from lectlaw:

ENTRAPMENT - A person is 'entrapped' when he is induced or persuaded by law enforcement officers or their agents to commit a crime that he had no previous intent to commit; and the law as a matter of policy forbids conviction in such a case.

However, there is no entrapment where a person is ready and willing to break the law and the Government agents merely provide what appears to be a favorable opportunity for the person to commit the crime. For example, it is not entrapment for a Government agent to pretend to be someone else and to offer, either directly or through an informer or other decoy, to engage in an unlawful transaction with the person. So, a person would not be a victim of entrapment if the person was ready, willing and able to commit the crime charged in the indictment whenever opportunity was afforded, and that Government officers or their agents did no more than offer an opportunity.

On the other hand, if the evidence leaves a reasonable doubt whether the person had any intent to commit the crime except for inducement or persuasion on the part of some Government officer or agent, then the person is not guilty.

In slightly different words: Even though someone may have [sold drugs], as charged by the government, if it was the result of entrapment then he is not guilty. Government agents entrapped him if three things occurred:

- First, the idea for committing the crime came from the government agents and not from the person accused of the crime.

- Second, the government agents then persuaded or talked the person into committing the crime. Simply giving him the opportunity to commit the crime is not the same as persuading him to commit the crime.

- And third, the person was not ready and willing to commit the crime before the government agents spoke with him.

On the issue of entrapment the government must prove beyond a reasonable doubt that the defendant was not entrapped by government agents.

preventing the drivers from leaving is not entrapment, it is detention.

asking them "leading questions", is not entrapment, it is...well...it's questioning.

They are not required to provide more info than their name (if I remember Californias ID law) until there is a violation of the law of some sort which they are then required to submit to the officers control and direction as they investigate the violation.

and to what you were allowed to do involving private property that is open to the public;

you need to review the California codes. You were inhibited by something other than state codes.

[CdwJava]

Originally Posted by bemused_sammie

I was a deputy in Riverside County and in Solana Beach. We could not enter private property unless to patrol the fire lanes and handocap spaces.

If they prohibited you from going in to parking lots, either you misunderstood the directive, or your agency administrators were idiots. Apartment complexes and other personal, private property - sure. But parking lots open to the general public are considered "off street parking facilities" and available for general patrol and enforcement.

Of course, Sheriff's Departments tend not to enforce the Vehicle Code anyway ... they have an MOU with the CHP for this activity in most counties. So, I would not be surprised if the agencies did not want you going into parking lots enforcing the CVC.

(Oh, and it's Solano County - not Solana ...)

We couldn't even write a vehicle violation like a missing front plate or expired tabs while the vehicle was on the private property unless the property own gave us explict rights to do such.

When was this? Certainly not in the last 20 odd years. Unless your supervisors were way out of touch.

And they did trap in patrons by blocking of the entrances and exits.

That's not "entrapment".

They also entraped them by feeding them leading questions to get them to say stuff they did not have to answer.

Also not entrapment.

But then again, California does not recognixe teh federal statute of Entrapment. Instead it uses the objective test.

This is the CA test from the AG's office:

The test for the defense of entrapment focuses entirely on the conduct of the officers. The issue is: Was your conduct likely to cause a normally law-abiding citizen to commit the crime? (Barraza (1979) 23 Cal.3d 675.)

And, anyone has the right to parkin a shopping center so long as they make purchases, or look to do so, even if they don't buy anything.

Generally, yes ... but this is not n absolute. And they do NOT have a right to just loiter there.

to the point, I appreciate you comments but do not agree with them. I will still wait for a true legal answer, thank though

Just what question are you seeking an answer for?

If you are looking for a definitive answer as to whether a search was lawful or not, no one can give you that. To evaluate a 4th Amendment issue one needs to look at the totality of the circumstances including the articulated cause of the officers. I can hypothesize any number of reasons why they would have been allowed to conduct such a search ... I can also hypothesize a few that would not allow for a search.

Ultimately, if any evidence was uncovered in these searches, the suspects can hire attorneys and make suppression motions if they so choose ... though $1,500+ for a violation costing 1/5 or less of that is kinda silly, but they can do it.

You may not agree with my response, but the contact was good, blocking the exits was good, only the searches might be questionable. But, to evaluate the searches we would have to know a lot more than is available here. As long as the officers had reasonable cause to believe that the vehicles had been illegally modified, they could generally conduct the search. Most these kids likely allowed the searches to take place ... plus, many of the vehicles on display likely had a number of illegal mods apparent. As I said, I've seen and dealt with these gatherings and it does not take much to find fault with these vehicles ... often no front plates, illegal lighting or tinting, etc. - and these violations add to the probable cause articulation.

So, whether you agree or not, chances are good that the searches were lawful.

- Carl