One minor question about vehicle searches

New York

I am taking law classes in college, and I know about procedures, and seraches, and all that fun stuff (sarcasm) but I never learned about the K-9 search.

I know you can refuse a search, but can K-9's just sniff around if they want. And then if they bark they have the probable cause. Or are the K-9s just a scare tactic?

Also,

If you get pulled over, and they think you are drinking, so they conduct subriety tests etc... but you pass them all, can talk strait, and don't smell of alcohal. Then can they give you a breathalizer? Isn't that considered a search since its a "search of your body" and since you passed everything else, would they have the probable cause to do that?

Thanks


JD

[FlyingRon]

Properly trained dogs can indicate the presence of what they are trained to find and have a more make deterministic indications than just barking. It's accepted probable cause.

[lwpat]

Holding you for a reasonable time to allow for a dog to arrive and conduct a "sniff" is not an arrest requiring Probable Cause. Each case is fact specific. I suggest that you go to the Supreme Court website and read some of the 4th Amendment decisions. There is a good discussion under Criminal Procedure at

[url]http://www.law-school-books.com[/url]

For a breathalizer the officer needs Reasonable Articulable Suspicion or RAS. This is lesser than PC. If you pass the physical tests, you could argue the officer did not have RAS for the breathalizer. You will probably lose.

[outonbail]

Originally Posted by Jdolittle69

New York

I am taking law classes in college, and I know about procedures, and seraches, and all that fun stuff (sarcasm) but I never learned about the K-9 search.

That class comes subsequent to the K-8, which come subsequent to the K-7, which comes subsequent to the K-6 and so on. So basically the prerequisite is to receive a passing grade in K-1 through K-8. In K-1 they search your vehicle with a mouse, K-2 a hamster, K-3 a rat, K-4 a cat, K-5 a ground hog, K-6 a beaver, K-7 a pig, K-8 a Billy Goat. (In the state of Texas they may substitute the beaver in K-6 with an armadillo) Following these K-9 prep classes, you are ready for the real thing, the K-9! This is making it to the big leagues, the one place where mans best friend can become mans nightmare! (sarcasm)

I know you can refuse a search, but can K-9's just sniff around if they want.

Yes, there is no law which restricts where dogs are allowed to sniff when they're out in public. If there were, I'm sure thy neighbor's butt would be the first spot to become legally off limits.

And then if they bark they have the probable cause. Or are the K-9s just a scare tactic?

When they signal a positive "hit" to their handler, indicating the presence of narcotics, be it a bark, scratching at the area they hit on, or lifting a leg, the handler then has probable cause to suspect there are drugs in the vehicle. The dogs only scare those who are in possession of illegal drugs, explosives, cadavers or any other items which are illegal to possess or indicative of a crime having been committed.

Also,

If you get pulled over, and they think you are drinking, so they conduct subriety tests etc... but you pass them all, can talk strait, and don't smell of alcohal. Then can they give you a breathalizer?

If you are sober and have not been drinking, it would certainly be a waste of their time to bring you to the station and have you blow into a machine. In fact, I've never even heard of someone who hasn't been drinking, getting hauled to the station so the police can administer a breathalyser on them. But there is something you need to be aware of. Even though you, or anyone who is drunk, impaired, or just consumed a single alcoholic beverage, believe you have passed all the field sobriety tests and don't think you smell of alcohol, doesn't make it so. I'd say about 99 percent of the folks that are arrested for a DUI believe they passed the sobriety tests. Unfortunately, it is what the officer thinks that dictates whether or not you'll be wearing handcuffs and heading to jail or not.

Isn't that considered a search since its a "search of your body" and since you passed everything else, would they have the probable cause to do that?

Again, if you pass everything else, they will not be wasting their time on you.

You should also realize that driving is a privilege, not a right. The privilege is taken away when you don't obey the law and your driving habits threaten the safety and well being of other citizens. There is nothing in the constitution that refers to your right to drive a motor vehicle, or to use the public roads and highways as you see fit.

Thanks


JD[/quote]

[outonbail]

Originally Posted by Curt581

If given his preference, my dog would be checking other dogs' butts.

Yeah, if given a choice, my dogs would rather have the butt they sniff, be one without pants. But whatever butt happens to be available at any given time, be it with pants, dress or a tail, they're always down for a good sniffing!

Just to clear a few things up,

To flying ron..
I know the dogs have certain ways to reveal other than barking, it was just the way I worded it. I was more asking if they have the right to jsut sniff around, because as with a search, you need PC. But as someone else pointed out, dogs can sniff where they want. SO there is no PC needed for the dogs to sniff your car.


To out on bail,

What i meant by scare tactic, was related to waht i said above ^ about needing PC or not to sniff. As if they just scare the person into saying "yes you can search" or if they can run the dogs around regardless. Which we all have found an answer on.


Thanks for the replys people.

Oh yea, to whom answered the Breathilizer question.. They don't take you down to the station, they have them portable.... Thus the search of your body. (your breath being that part) But I think someone allready answered... Something about having less than PC called some vancy word.

Thanks


JD

[The Occultist]

Originally Posted by Jdolittle69

What i meant by scare tactic, was related to waht i said above ^ about needing PC or not to sniff. As if they just scare the person into saying "yes you can search" or if they can run the dogs around regardless.

Officers don't really need the scare tactics. They aren't going to waste their time waiting for a K-9 unit to show up unless they do believe there is a reason for it. They're not going to ask every person in every stop for permission to search the vehicle because it's usually not needed.

[FlyingRon]

The cop can sniff your car as well, but unless you have serious amounts of drugs, all he's likely to detect is your donut stash.

[mike_lee]

Unless the police arrest you they cannot detain you, they must give you a ticket and send you on your way. They cant detain you to wait on a k-9 unit because you look like a stoner. Unless they had probable cause which they could support at trial you could get anything the dog turned up surpresed. (in theory)

[outonbail]

Originally Posted by mike_lee

Unless the police arrest you they cannot detain you

Since when?

Of course telling them that will probably get you arrested, then they'll say something to the effect of, "There, you're arrested now, happy Mr. I know the law?"

[lwpat]

An officer can arrest you for even a minor infraction like a seat belt ticket. They cannot detain you for an unreasonable time without arresting you. Why give him a reason to take you to jail and tow your car to the impound lot.

Sometimes you get pulled over by a k-9 unit. And if in the time of pulling you over, you and your buddys stories don't match up, they'll start to think something fishy is going on. (if you look blazed also).. So if they have the dogs with them or don't let you leave before they get there, your screwed? Because the dog doesn't need PC to sniff whereever they want?


Just trying to clear up the answers so I can understand it.

JD

[You Are Guilty]

Originally Posted by Jdolittle69

Sometimes you get pulled over by a k-9 unit. And if in the time of pulling you over, you and your buddys stories don't match up, they'll start to think something fishy is going on. (if you look blazed also).. So if they have the dogs with them or don't let you leave before they get there, your screwed? Because the dog doesn't need PC to sniff whereever they want?


Just trying to clear up the answers so I can understand it.

JD

That's basically it. If they need to call the dog, the police can detain you for a "reasonable time" (NY cases say that's is generally 20-30 minutes, although under extreme circumstances, even up to 60 minutes has been upheld).

[CdwJava]

Originally Posted by Jdolittle69

I know you can refuse a search, but can K-9's just sniff around if they want. And then if they bark they have the probable cause. Or are the K-9s just a scare tactic?

The police can detain you for a reasonable amount of time, which usually is that amount of time necessary to take care of the citation , run a records' check, etc. This is usually about 20-30 minutes and can have some specifics based upon state law.

A sniff around by a K-9 is not considered a search.

If you get pulled over, and they think you are drinking, so they conduct subriety tests etc... but you pass them all, can talk strait, and don't smell of alcohal. Then can they give you a breathalizer? Isn't that considered a search since its a "search of your body" and since you passed everything else, would they have the probable cause to do that?

You can refuse the field sobriety tests. The breath test in the field is generally going to be one of the FSTs so you CAN refuse it. However, there are some states and some circumstances (like drinking and driving underage) where you cannot refuse without legal penalty.


- Carl

[mike_lee]

Breathalyzers tests are a horse of a different color, you agree to be subject to them when you sign your drivers license they are not covered under Miranda.