Patriot Act Advice

[seafire]

What is the name of your state?What is the name of your state? New York

A bit of background:

I am a 60 year old political activist, and post regularly on activist forums. A few weeks ago, the admin of one of these forums informed me that the "joint terrorism task force" contacted him and demanded information on my account; stating "he is not in trouble, we just want to ask him a few questions". He refused, and demanded a subpoena. Six weeks later, one was delivered, and, in protest, he handed over my IP address, and my bank account info from which I paid for some site services.

Four weeks after that (today) two Police officers showed up at my home; flashed a badge, identified themselves, and asked:

"Can we come in and ask you a few questions"? No you can't I replied. "We just want to talk to you for a minute". I do not wish to speak with you I replied. "That sounds kinda suspicious"; I just smiled and shrugged my shoulders. "Do you have a problem" they queried... I don't have a problem, I just do not wish to speak with you, that's all. "Why"? I don't need a reason, I just do not wish to speak with you.

They seemed a bit peeved, and puzzled, and just walked off. Guess it's their move.

My question:

They obviously want to know something they believe I know, and I do not wish to tell them anything (even if it turns out I know it). From what I can discover, they have two options, one is to arrest me as a material witness, or two, drag me before a grand jury. Is this correct? If so, what are my rights in either situation?

If arrested as a material witness, do I have to say anything? What is the minimum I would be required to say? I would have an attorney present of course.

If brought before a grand jury, I know I would have to appear, and I know I would have to answer questions, and I would agree to that, but what would happen if I answered NO to the "oath"?

Lastly, should I expend the money to retain a lawyer now, or wait till one is needed? It hardly seems worth the trouble given their lame performance so far. I would rather have them expend as much time and money as possible (I see them as enemies of freedom and of democracy), so what can I do to make this as painful, and as costly for them as possible??

Seafire

Originally Posted by seafire

What is the name of your state?What is the name of your state? New York

A bit of background:

I am a 60 year old political activist, and post regularly on activist forums. A few weeks ago, the admin of one of these forums informed me that the "joint terrorism task force" contacted him and demanded information on my account; stating "he is not in trouble, we just want to ask him a few questions". He refused, and demanded a subpoena. Six weeks later, one was delivered, and, in protest, he handed over my IP address, and my bank account info from which I paid for some site services.

Four weeks after that (today) two Police officers showed up at my home; flashed a badge, identified themselves, and asked:

"Can we come in and ask you a few questions"? No you can't I replied. "We just want to talk to you for a minute". I do not wish to speak with you I replied. "That sounds kinda suspicious"; I just smiled and shrugged my shoulders. "Do you have a problem" they queried... I don't have a problem, I just do not wish to speak with you, that's all. "Why"? I don't need a reason, I just do not wish to speak with you.

They seemed a bit peeved, and puzzled, and just walked off. Guess it's their move.

My question:

They obviously want to know something they believe I know, and I do not wish to tell them anything (even if it turns out I know it). From what I can discover, they have two options, one is to arrest me as a material witness, or two, drag me before a grand jury. Is this correct? If so, what are my rights in either situation?

If arrested as a material witness, do I have to say anything? What is the minimum I would be required to say? I would have an attorney present of course.

If brought before a grand jury, I know I would have to appear, and I know I would have to answer questions, and I would agree to that, but what would happen if I answered NO to the "oath"?

Lastly, should I expend the money to retain a lawyer now, or wait till one is needed? It hardly seems worth the trouble given their lame performance so far. I would rather have them expend as much time and money as possible (I see them as enemies of freedom and of democracy), so what can I do to make this as painful, and as costly for them as possible??

Seafire

Can you provide a link to the message?

Originally Posted by seafire

What is the name of your state?What is the name of your state? New York

A bit of background:

I am a 60 year old political activist, and post regularly on activist forums. A few weeks ago, the admin of one of these forums informed me that the "joint terrorism task force" contacted him and demanded information on my account; stating "he is not in trouble, we just want to ask him a few questions". He refused, and demanded a subpoena. Six weeks later, one was delivered, and, in protest, he handed over my IP address, and my bank account info from which I paid for some site services.

Four weeks after that (today) two Police officers showed up at my home; flashed a badge, identified themselves, and asked:

"Can we come in and ask you a few questions"? No you can't I replied. "We just want to talk to you for a minute". I do not wish to speak with you I replied. "That sounds kinda suspicious"; I just smiled and shrugged my shoulders. "Do you have a problem" they queried... I don't have a problem, I just do not wish to speak with you, that's all. "Why"? I don't need a reason, I just do not wish to speak with you.

They seemed a bit peeved, and puzzled, and just walked off. Guess it's their move.

My question:

They obviously want to know something they believe I know, and I do not wish to tell them anything (even if it turns out I know it). From what I can discover, they have two options, one is to arrest me as a material witness, or two, drag me before a grand jury. Is this correct? If so, what are my rights in either situation?

If arrested as a material witness, do I have to say anything? What is the minimum I would be required to say? I would have an attorney present of course.

If brought before a grand jury, I know I would have to appear, and I know I would have to answer questions, and I would agree to that, but what would happen if I answered NO to the "oath"?

Lastly, should I expend the money to retain a lawyer now, or wait till one is needed? It hardly seems worth the trouble given their lame performance so far. I would rather have them expend as much time and money as possible (I see them as enemies of freedom and of democracy), so what can I do to make this as painful, and as costly for them as possible??

Seafire

Get a lawyer....

[Veronica1228]

Originally Posted by seniorjudge

Get a lawyer....

I agree. You don't want to mess with the USA PATRIOT Act.

On a side note; I wonder how many of our tax dollars were spent on the committee that must have been formed to come up with that acronym?

Uniting and Strengthening America by Providing Appropriate Tools Required to Intercept and Obstruct Terrorism

It must have taken them weeks!

Originally Posted by Veronica1228

I agree. You don't want to mess with the USA PATRIOT Act.

On a side note; I wonder how many of our tax dollars were spent on the committee that must have been formed to come up with that acronym?

Uniting and Strengthening America by Providing Appropriate Tools Required to Intercept and Obstruct Terrorism

It must have taken them weeks!

They should have hired us

Originally Posted by Veronica1228

I agree. You don't want to mess with the USA PATRIOT Act.

On a side note; I wonder how many of our tax dollars were spent on the committee that must have been formed to come up with that acronym?

Uniting and Strengthening America by Providing Appropriate Tools Required to Intercept and Obstruct Terrorism

It must have taken them weeks!

I think it should be:

Screw the Patriot Act....

[Veronica1228]

Originally Posted by seniorjudge

I think it should be:

Screw the Patriot Act....

Carefull SJ! (sssssssh....they are watching).

You don't want the CIA to come and start throwing food at you!

[seafire]

Originally Posted by Obnoxious1

Can you provide a link to the message?

I have no idea which message got their attention. In fact, the admin, was never asked for any message; he guesses another "participant" handed it over. Not having a verifiable "original" from the server, makes anything it says suspect.

Seafire

[seafire]

Originally Posted by seniorjudge

Get a lawyer....

I have contacted the CCR, and they say they will take me on; gave me the name of one of their lawyers, will call him soon.

Seafire

[CdwJava]

Considering that New York's Joint Terrorism Task Force was - I believe - in place even before the "Patriot Act", has it occurred to anyone that this may have nothing at all to do with the "Patriot Act"?

Too many people seem to think that the nebulous Patriot Act is responsible for what could have and possibly would have been done even before 9/11. There is not a federal conspiracy under every shrub.

Heck, I've been told by some that I'm using the Patriot Act when I obtain a search warrant for bank statements regarding fraud! On the local level, the Patriot Act has done nothing to change how we do our jobs.

This doesn't mean that the OP shouldn't get an attorney, just that crediting an investigation as being related to the Patriot Act is a tad premature.



- Carl

[seafire]

Originally Posted by Obnoxious1

Can you provide a link to the message?

As I said, they didn't ask for any message, and I have posted thousands. But thinking back to about the time this all got started, I recall several discussions about our fuhrer and his criminal cabal's war crimes, and my thoughts as to why they should be tried and executed as war criminals... perhaps this pissed them off? I have also advocated for war-tax resistance, and for a general strike to cripple the US economy... but as far as I can tell the first amendment is still in effect un-patriotic act or not

Seafire

[seafire]

Originally Posted by CdwJava

Considering that New York's Joint Terrorism Task Force was - I believe - in place even before the "Patriot Act", has it occurred to anyone that this may have nothing at all to do with the "Patriot Act"? - Carl

Don't know Carl. The System Admin told me he was ordered not to tell me anything; I believe this "gag-order" came into effect with the patriot act, no?

Seafire

Originally Posted by seafire

Don't know Carl. The System Admin told me he was ordered not to tell me anything; I believe this "gag-order" came into effect with the patriot act, no?

Seafire

No, that gag order law is several thousands of years old....

[CdwJava]

Originally Posted by seafire

Don't know Carl. The System Admin told me he was ordered not to tell me anything; I believe this "gag-order" came into effect with the patriot act, no?

Seafire

Obviously it didn't work, because he did tell you.

But, no, it didn't. We regularly tell people we speak with on possible criminal matters not to talk about the case to anyone. there is not much we can do to prevent it except for charging the person with obstruction or related charges if it somehow is detrimental to the case.


- Carl

[CdwJava]

Originally Posted by seafire

As I said, they didn't ask for any message, and I have posted thousands. But thinking back to about the time this all got started, I recall several discussions about our fuhrer and his criminal cabal's war crimes, and my thoughts as to why they should be tried and executed as war criminals... perhaps this pissed them off? I have also advocated for war-tax resistance, and for a general strike to cripple the US economy... but as far as I can tell the first amendment is still in effect un-patriotic act or not

Seafire

Why would they single YOU out? I know of dozens of sites with similar opinions. I disagree with virtually all of them ... particularly ones that even hint at equating our government with Hitler and the ****s of old as we all know there really is no comparison.

To go after every fringe site out there would take far many more law enforcement personnel than exist today. Not to mention that such dissent is not criminal. It does not mean that something about it cannot be looked at, but it certainly is not criminal.

And, yes, we investigated POSSIBLE crimes, threats, and even treasonous activity long before this administration. The supporters of the party that is out of power always sees heinous conspiracies being conducted by the party IN power. I recall the far right decrying actions of President Clinton and his "cabal" much the same as those on the left are doing so today.

Yes, seek an attorney's advice. And while I have not seen anything you have written, so I do not intend to disparage any of your opinions, but I find most these sites that are anti-Bush to be teetering between outrageously humorous and downright insulting.

- Carl