Possible overturn of a 5150/5250

[Jenni_Pooh2]

What is the name of your state? CA

I'm not sure if this is the correct place to post this, but here it goes.

Is it possible to have a 5150 (and possible a 5250) overturned, or removed from a persons record? This is the only thing on his record, and there were some extreme circumstances involved.

Not sure if you need the whole story to answer, if so, let me know and I'll explain what happened.

 

[HomeGuru]

What is the name of your state? CA

I'm not sure if this is the correct place to post this, but here it goes.

Is it possible to have a 5150 (and possible a 5250) overturned, or removed from a persons record? This is the only thing on his record, and there were some extreme circumstances involved.

Not sure if you need the whole story to answer, if so, let me know and I'll explain what happened.

**A: not again.

 

[Jenni_Pooh2]

What do you mean? Has there already been a thread on this subject that you could direct me to so that I may find the information I'm seeking?

 

[CdwJava]

Removed from what record? Since W&I 5150 is NOT an arrest, it is NOT part of your criminal history. It is a detention for a mental health evaluation of up to 72 hours. You either ARE or ARE NOT accepted for a 72-hour evaluation. It's sort of like being in a crash, I suppose - You either ARE or ARE NOT.

Exactly what "record" do you want this removed from?

Carl

 

[Jenni_Pooh2]

I guess I misunderstood is a 5150/5250 is recorded anywhere. I figured it went onto a "record" of some kind since there were city police, CHP, and the county sheriff's department involved. I guess my questions should have been, is this something that will show up on a back ground investigation?

Also, what about being able to overturn the 3 year time limit on being able to own/posess fire arms.

 

[CdwJava]

There is no way to adequately answer whether it will show up on a "background investigation" as that is a generic term that means different things to different employers or agencies. To some employers, it means calling your previous employers on the phone. To some government agencies, it means interviewing childhood friends, all your neighbors, and reviewing your school records dating back to kindergarten.

So nobody can say if a background check will find out about the W&I 5150/5250 commitments. However, while these records are not stored in a criminal database, they are kept elsewhere ... at the State Department of Mental Health, I believe. And DOJ is allowed to access that database solely for the purpose of a yay or nay on firearms possession.

And I doubt you can get the 3 year exemption waived without showing some extraordinary circumstances ... such as you were completely and totally railroaded and committed without any factual basis whatsoever. But, the three years might pass before you could successfully prove that.

Will it show up in a private employer's background? Possibly. Depending on who they talk to and whether they access local police records they might find out about it. It's doubtful that a private employer would find out through the Dept. of Mental Health, but that does not mean that a neighbor or the police department won't say something to them.

Assume it will show up, and act accordingly. Since I assume this involved a background check for a firearm (CCW, Guard Card, or a government position), I can virtually guarantee that it WILL show up.

Carl

 

[Jenni_Pooh2]

CdwJava - Thank you so much for your reply. As a matter of fact, I am asking because it does apply for a govt. position. Maybe I'll consult an attorney to see what if anything can be done.

There were some circumstances where the original 5150 was falsely claimed. Then, as a result of the 5150 being declared things went drastically wrong (which was definitely this persons own fault), and that is when the 5250 was declared. For the 5150 - he was only held for 32 hours (at a facility over 2 hours from where he lives) and was released while under heavy sedation and without any transportation (which was to be previously provided by the county which had him transported to the facility), no money, no ID, or any way home. He was told by the nurse releasing him where the nearest highway was so he could hitch-hike home. Once he was released and realized that his career in "public service" would most likely be over do to this- he did try to do himself in by taking all of the medication that the mental health facility gave him when he was released. At that time he called me collect to tell me goodbye and I immediately called 911 and got him transported to the nearest hospital where they then classified him (I think) as a 5250. I stayed at the hospital with him until they transported him to another mental health facility in the county next to where we live. He was there for 10 days and we were apologized to multiple times by our county mental health facility for there error in not providing transportation home for him.

We were not aware that we were not supposed to posses or purchase firearms until until we went to purchase another firearm and have complied with DOJ and have all of our firearms stored for three years. I thought this was a bit strange that DOJ had not contacted us and told us about this prior to us finding out on our own since our firearms are all registered with DOJ through his work. I would just like to find out where to find this information and what it says.

 

[CdwJava]

The only one who would likely be able to access that information would be the person himself. he would have to contact the CA Dept. of Mental Health to find out what was said about him.

Unfortunately, from what you describe, it sounds like the 5150 commitment was completely valid based upon the suicide attempt. I doubt there will be anything he can do to remove that from any record anywhere. It's like being involved in a traffic colliion - it happened.

His only option (if it's legally available - and I don't know that it is) might be to get a judge to exempt or waive the possession restriction while in the course of employment.

Carl

 

[Jenni_Pooh2]

Well, now I feel like I need to give you more info so that maybe you'll understand where I am coming from.

In 9/03 we were in a bad car accident and his back was severly injured. He has been on med's for depression for about 1 year because he had been injured at work and out of work for 2 years while going through voc rehab. We relocated to where we live now and he was injured in the car accident and the dr.'s didn't know what to do for his back and put him on valium to "knock him out and let his back rest so that maybe the pain would go away". Well, the valium really did "knock him out". He slept for 3 days straight. When I would wake him up he had no idea what day it was, when he had eaten last, he was completely out of it. I had to leave the house for 1 hour, and when I came home I woke him up to give him his pills (I was monitoring and administrating them to him). I found the valium bottle empty. I tried to wake him up and he was none responsive. I got him in the car - took him to the ER and explained what had happened. Once he woke up (about 30 minutes later), he expained that he had put all his pills in the asprine bottle. (still don't know why - like I said, he was totally out of it. Put the toilet paper in the kitchen sink too if that is another example!). The doctor asked him if he was trying to kill himself and he replied that he just didn't want to hurt anymore. I tried to explain to the ER doc what had been going on with the back injury and the ER doc said it sounded like a clear case of a suicide attempt. Once he heard this, he got off the gurney and tried to leave the hospital. He couldn't find the exit door and walked around until he found one. Mind you, the ER doc saw all this going on and did nothing to help. Once he got outside I was walking with him and talking to him. He said that he just wanted to go home and that he knew that if he went back into the hospital that the ER doc would commit him under a 5150 and his career would be over. This would be absolutely devistating (CdwJava - put yourself in his shoes) Wouldn't ya know it, the ER doc called security, who inturn called the local PD who showed up in the parking lot where we were talking. It turned into a big mess. The sergeant was talking to him saying that he understands what's up and that he needs to go back into the hospital. That's when the sheriff's dept shows up. Not 10 minutes later, CHP decides to roll on by and jump on in too. At this point, he lays down, face down, arms and legs spread, ya know "assume the position". The took him to the local mental health and that was when the 5150 was put into place. I already told you how (possibly) the 5250 came into play. He was diagnosed as being bi-polar - not depressed. Which anti-depression med's can actually cause more problems for some one who is bi-polar. Maybe this could have effected the release from the first mental health agency? ( grasping at straws now). Anyway - I should have him contact the mental health facilities he has been in and see what the reports show because if anything comes up about this that is most likely what it would be?

We are in a "small rural town" as well. And even though he is now friends with the sergeant who first responded, you know how word of mouth spreads between the "good ole boys"...

 

[CdwJava]

I don't know of a mental health facility in CA that will designate a patient as a 5150 hold while they are under the influence of medication. One of the reasons they do that is that they want to make sure that the medication does not play a part in the process. But, I suppose it COULD happen ... and at times, I wish they would accept them. I can't tell you the number of times we've had suicidal subjects released because they were under the influence of prescription or illegal drugs.

And if he's been diagnosed as bi-polar, that could also disqualify him for firearms possession under certain circumstances as well.

The only "out" I see for him is to get an attorney and try to get the 5150 removed. But, because of what you posted previously:

Once he was released and realized that his career in "public service" would most likely be over do to this- he did try to do himself in by taking all of the medication that the mental health facility gave him when he was released.

I doubt that the 5150 will be removed. That second one IS valid, and will likely remain. The underlying cause is not an issue to be debated.

However, I still think there is a method to get a court to waive the restriction for the course of employment.

And what job requires him to carry a firearm? You say its government so it's either law enforcement, government security, or military ... and if it were law enforcement in CA the whole event (and being bi-polar) would almost certainly have bounced him out. That leaves the other two.

Carl

 

[Jenni_Pooh2]

Yes, he was previously a police officer. He left the job 6 years ago, after 8 years with the two different departments and even did 3 tours with a special Narcotics Enforcment Agency. He left in good standing and was hoping to return to it. Hence, the 5150 ruining any chance of that, and now finding that the bi-polar would only add to that impossibility.

Does he have to tell the potential employeer that he is bi-polar? He is currently working a "temp" job but they would like to make him full time permenant in another area of the same department only in a different division. He is not required to carry a fire arm now, but would be for the other job.

As far as what you said about the possibility of the 5150 so called not counting because he was under the influence of a prescription drug, he was under the influence of a strong sedative (prescribed) when he was released from the second mental health facility. Wouldn't that still apply, or am I not understanding this?

Thank you so much for all your help.

 

[CdwJava]

Unless he can get a court to remove the 5150 commitment from his mental health records (and I don't see that as likely) he will NOT pass his DOJ/FBI firearms clearance when/if he is transferred to a position that requires him to carry a firearm.

Additionally, if the agency is doing their background checks sufficiently there will come a time in the process where he will be required to reveal the 5150 AND the bi-polar information - certainly if he's receiving medication. And if he conceals the condition, when/if they DO find out about it, it would be grounds for dismissal.

The only way he is going to get around this would be to HOPE that no such record was ever entered with the Dept. of Mental Health, or, go to court and get a judge to seal or remove it. However, I do NOT see it likely that a judge would do that. I also do not see it likely that an agency will take a chance after a 5150 commitment ... think of the liability if he DID eventually kill himself, or - God forbid - someone else with a department firearm and his state of mind came into question! He would also have to get evaluated and be judged to not suffer from a mental disorder that would impact his job.

My recommendation would be that he try to make his career in a position that does not require a firearm and that he concentrate on exceling in that area. I know some excellent property and evidence technicians, crime analysts, and trainers that have had similar problems and have maintained productive careers in the field. If he goes for the firearm position, and loses out, he COULD be terminated entirely.

Carl

 

[Jenni_Pooh2]

I agree with you whole-heartedly. I found out that it has never been recorded as bi-polar, but rather PTSD relating to an officer involved shooting. (This by the way was found to be completely justified) So, that may help, but we're not holding our breath. I guess we'll just see what happens... He is going to apply for the position, as his supervisor is requesting it. However, he is currently working in a field that does not require a firearm and is enjoying it. Maybe he'll find a way to continue that field or go into one of the one's you've recommended. Although he is really enjoying working in a Federal position, he has been completely honest about the things that have taken place in the past. There is no way he would try to hide it - he may have been a bit messed up in the past due to some of the things he's been through, but he does have integrity. I guess well just wait and see what happens...

Thank you for all your replies...

 

[CdwJava]

If he was retired from a CA state law enforcement position due to PTSD he will probably not be able to get another law enforcement position that permits him to carry a gun. I suppose it MIGHT be possible with a battery of experts who will assert he's fine, but that would mess up his retirement. Plus, not too many agencies are going to find an expert who is going to risk being wrong if he DOES go off.

I wish him luck in his new career, and hopefully he can come to terms with what happened and move on. I know a few good officers in good shoots who have been in the same boat as he is - and there is nothing dishonorable about it.

Good luck.

Carl

 

[Jenni_Pooh2]

He quit the PD - not retired. PTSD was diagnosed 4 years later. He is doing great now and I'm sure he will end up where ever he is supposed to be...

Be safe out there and thanks again.