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Record Police Officer, In Public Place in California..

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BitDrifter

Junior Member
<<There is a summary at the end if you don't want to read a quick recount of the Background Informaiton>>
Hello,

I recently was invloved in an Accident with a School Bus, the school bus took a Right Turn into my car. I told the responding CHP officer what happened, and he proceeded to get sarcastic with me, and accuse me of being at fualt. I quouted the Vehicle Code (VC 22107) the Bus had violated and this pissed him off, and proceeded to tell me that that wasnt a vehicle code (which it is). I informed him becuase of some yelling that came afterward that he was acting extremely unprofessional and that I would be filing a complaint. In response he said "Well, your not going to like whats in this report." I took umbrage to that and asked him if he just told me he was going to falsify the report. He did not respond, and I then told him that "I will be recording you." I took my PDA out of my pocket and was in the process of doing a soft-reboot when the cop and an Epilepsy and started yelling at me "You will NOT record me!" I told him that I was going to record him. He then said "Give me THAT!" I told him no, that I can record whoever I wish, including him while in a public place where there is no expectation of privacy and that he had no cuase to confiscate my PDA. This just pissed him off further and he dug his thumbs into my PDA screen and jerked it out of my hand.

He later went in my car (without my permission) and put my PDA on my passenger seat.

After the incident I file a complaint with his Seargent. I just recevied the conclusion to the report, and it basically said I was lieing about everything, not one thing I said was true. Which is utter bull****.

I then called the Captain to talk about inconistencies in the letter sent to me. The officer admited to taking my PDA, yet I was seen using while he had it (very interesting). I also informed the Captain that the conclusion did not address my primary point in the Complaint (the unlawful confiscation of my PDA). I exaplained to him that it was perfectly legal for me to record wheover I wish in a public place. He then informed me that I knew nothing, and that I was all "screwed up in the head," that it explained everything becuase I was an "only child" (yes he mocked me becuase I am an only child, was laughing and everything). (how nice of him, and totally unprofessional, I can see where the subordinates learned it from). I informed him that he was wrong about the law, and that I suggest he look it up, (he refused, and continued to tell me how screwed up and idiotic I was for saying that). He then said that I cannot record people in public without their permission.

Anyways things did not go well, but I managed to get his e-mail address and so I want to e-mail him the applicable laws, so he won't have to start calling other people idiots.

In Summary:

First, I informed the officer I was going to record him.
Second, it was on a sidewalk with many people around.
Third, he told me I was not going to record him.
Fourth, I proceeded to turn on my PDA to record him (although it wasnt recording yet)
Fifth, he confiscated the PDA becuase he didn't want me to record him.


So my questions:

1. Can I record a Police Officer in a Public Place after I have informed him that I was going to, and after he expressed he didn't want to be recorded?

2. If so, can you direct me to applicable Case Law and California Code that would support this conclusion so I can send him the information.

While I have found many sites that say I can do what I outlined, I am having trouble finding case law.

Thanks for any help,

BitDrifter
 


outonbail

Senior Member
BitDrifter said:
<<There is a summary at the end if you don't want to read a quick recount of the Background Informaiton>>
Hello,

I recently was invloved in an Accident with a School Bus, the school bus took a Right Turn into my car. I told the responding CHP officer what happened, and he proceeded to get sarcastic with me, and accuse me of being at fualt. I quouted the Vehicle Code (VC 22107) the Bus had violated and this pissed him off, and proceeded to tell me that that wasnt a vehicle code (which it is). I informed him becuase of some yelling that came afterward that he was acting extremely unprofessional and that I would be filing a complaint. In response he said "Well, your not going to like whats in this report." I took umbrage to that and asked him if he just told me he was going to falsify the report. He did not respond, and I then told him that "I will be recording you." I took my PDA out of my pocket and was in the process of doing a soft-reboot when the cop and an Epilepsy and started yelling at me "You will NOT record me!" I told him that I was going to record him. He then said "Give me THAT!" I told him no, that I can record whoever I wish, including him while in a public place where there is no expectation of privacy and that he had no cuase to confiscate my PDA. This just pissed him off further and he dug his thumbs into my PDA screen and jerked it out of my hand.

He later went in my car (without my permission) and put my PDA on my passenger seat.

After the incident I file a complaint with his Seargent. I just recevied the conclusion to the report, and it basically said I was lieing about everything, not one thing I said was true. Which is utter bull****.

I then called the Captain to talk about inconistencies in the letter sent to me. The officer admited to taking my PDA, yet I was seen using while he had it (very interesting). I also informed the Captain that the conclusion did not address my primary point in the Complaint (the unlawful confiscation of my PDA). I exaplained to him that it was perfectly legal for me to record wheover I wish in a public place. He then informed me that I knew nothing, and that I was all "screwed up in the head," that it explained everything becuase I was an "only child" (yes he mocked me becuase I am an only child, was laughing and everything). (how nice of him, and totally unprofessional, I can see where the subordinates learned it from). I informed him that he was wrong about the law, and that I suggest he look it up, (he refused, and continued to tell me how screwed up and idiotic I was for saying that). He then said that I cannot record people in public without their permission.

Anyways things did not go well, but I managed to get his e-mail address and so I want to e-mail him the applicable laws, so he won't have to start calling other people idiots.

In Summary:

First, I informed the officer I was going to record him.
Second, it was on a sidewalk with many people around.
Third, he told me I was not going to record him.
Fourth, I proceeded to turn on my PDA to record him (although it wasnt recording yet)
Fifth, he confiscated the PDA becuase he didn't want me to record him.


So my questions:

1. Can I record a Police Officer in a Public Place after I have informed him that I was going to, and after he expressed he didn't want to be recorded?

2. If so, can you direct me to applicable Case Law and California Code that would support this conclusion so I can send him the information.

While I have found many sites that say I can do what I outlined, I am having trouble finding case law.

Thanks for any help,

BitDrifter
Don't you have anything better to do with your time than to continue to beat a dead horse? What are you expecting to get out of your mission to prove these officers wrong? If it's an apology letter, you can forget it, ain't gonna happen! So what's the point?

Realize, that in any profession, nobody wants someone on the sideline, telling them how to do their job. If the officer wanted your help in looking up the applicable law, he would have asked.

Do yourself a favor, next time your confronted with a similar situation, just let the police do their job. This way they can go on to their next unhappy customer and you can be on your way without having your panties in a wad over a bunch of pointless nonsense.

Maybe the officer was having a really bad day before he had to deal with you and your rebellious attitude, so give him the benefit of the doubt and drop it!

After all,,,, what have you got to gain???
 

CdwJava

Senior Member
So ... what makes you think the bus driver violated 22107 and you didn't violate anything? How was the right turn an unsafe turn? How did the collision happen? It could be that YOU are at fault.

BitDrifter said:
1. Can I record a Police Officer in a Public Place after I have informed him that I was going to, and after he expressed he didn't want to be recorded?
Yes.

2. If so, can you direct me to applicable Case Law and California Code that would support this conclusion so I can send him the information.
PC 630-637.9 et seq.

I have case law at the office.

However, I would strongly suggest you don't do it and just leave it be. It's done. Also, if you are making a nuisance of yourself and getting all up in the officer's face, you could be arrested for obstructing or delaying an officer. When people want to record they have to do it from a place where they are not going to interfere. if you shoved a PDA or a recorder in my face, I'd take it from you as well.

- Carl
 

BitDrifter

Junior Member
Hello Carl,

First thank you for the information you posted, I appreciate it. I also appreciate you taking the time to do what you are doing on this board.

However, I never put the PDA in his face, nor would I ever do anything like that, the PDA was at my waist and it was performing a soft-reboot, I never had a chance to start recording before he unlawfully confiscated it. I agree with you though, if I had been shoving it in his face, their a couple applicable laws that allow him to confiscate my property. Such as using it in a threatening manner. As I said though, this does not apply to this situation, he simply didn't want to be recorded and was throwing a hissy fit becuase I was not complying with his unlawful demands.

As for me being at fault:

To my knowlege and research I violated not ONE Vehicle Code. The Bus Driver violated the above mentioned VC. I was at a dead stop at the limit line along with the bus waiting for my turn to proceed into the intersection at a stop sign and take a right turn. The bus then starts turning right (I am still at a dead stop at the limit line), I honk my horn to let the Bus Driver know there is someone next to it. The bus continues to proceed and hits my car, I continue to honk, the bus continues to scrap up against my car for another 4 feet before the bus driver figures out that it hit me. The bus driver has a duty to check and make sure its not going to hit anything/anyone (expecially stopped objects, as I said my vechicle was not in motion) before it makes its turn, the bus driver failed to do this. Oh and don't mention blind spots I was right along side the bus, and I could see the driver through the doors, therefore she could see me if she had looked which she did not.

Feel free to quote a VC that I violated, it would be informative.

Oh and lastly, I have decided, after sleeping on it, not to e-mail the captain back. Although we had spurts of constructive conversation, I don't think he would even bother reading my e-mail. But the information posted is still useful for me, as I thought finding the applicable case law would be easier than it was. So if you wouldn't mind feel free to post that too, if you have the time.


---

Outonball,

I expect people to maintain their professionalism while performing their jobs. If they cannot do so, they need to be fired or at least reprimanded, just as I would be if I didn't at my job. Expecially an officer where they are in a position of authority. I will make no excuses for his unexcusable conduct and niether should someone else. If he cannot control himself he needs to think of another line of work before he has another bad day and decides to take his temper to another level and hurts someone. So please do not make that silly "bad day" arguement.

If he didn't want someone quoting law to him, he shouldnt have been trying to place the blame on me right when he showed up. To my knowlege and research I violated not ONE Vehicle Code. (see above) Yet the cop was clearly taking the side of the school bus driver the minute he showed up, which meant to me he clearly did not have a good grasp of the VC. Which it turns out he didn't, when the cop tried telling me VC 22107 was not a VC, and that it was only a Defensive Driving technique I lost all respect for his knowlege and ability to properly investigate the incident. An officer should be well versed in the VC, telling me a common VC was not in fact a VC and was only a defensive driving technique means this cop clearly is in need of training, in many areas.

Also, if he can't handle someone quoting one VC to him, he just needs to quit and go work as a stock boy so he won't have to deal with the public.

I ended up calling out the Local Police (who were extremely professional) to monitor the situation, when they arrived guess what, the hostile officer turned into a pertty sweet guy (coincidence? I think not, he knew he was acting in a way unbecoming of his position).

So feel free to prattel on about how incompetent/unprofessional officers (which are definetly not all officers, this is my first time encountering one) should be let off the hook, I don't agree.
 
Last edited:

CdwJava

Senior Member
BitDrifter said:
As for me being at fault:

I was at a dead stop at the limit line along with the bus waiting for my turn to proceed into the intersection at a stop sign and take a right turn.
If I picture this correctly, you were both in the same lane, yet you squeezed to the right of the bus to make a right turn to his right?

If this is the case, an argument could be made that you were at least a contributing factor to the collision for passing on the right. As to who might be listed as the party most at fault (i.e. having the Primary Collision Factor assigned to them), it will likely depend on which of you reached the limit line first. If the bus was present and you sneaked up to his right - you will likely be at fault.

The devil will be in the details.

Check CVC 21750 et seq.

But the information posted is still useful for me, as I thought finding the applicable case law would be easier than it was. So if you wouldn't mind feel free to post that too, if you have the time.
Well, to begin with, here is something from the CA Attorney General's Office:

Generally speaking, the California's Invasion of Privacy Act prohibits the electronic eavesdropping (monitoring) or recording of any "confidential communication" without the consent of all the parties.

"Confidential communication" means any communication in which a participant would have a reasonable expectation of privacy. (Pen.Code, § 632, subd.(c).) In Flanagan (2002) 27 Cal.4th 766, 768, 776, the California Supreme Court held that “a conversation is confidential if a party to that conversation has an objectively reasonable expectation that the conversation is not being overheard or recorded.”


Since the officer is in a public place, and has been advised that the conversation or actions are being recorded, it is no longer a "confidential communication". However, were you to stick the PDA between him and another party in an attempt to capture a conversation that was obviously meant to be between the other parties, then you could be charged.

And,

There is no prohibition against just standing openly near enough to hear, with your unaided ear, one side of the conversation, or even against tape recording what you hear in order to preserve it. Such non-electronic eavesdropping constitutes neither an illegal "interception" nor an unreasonable invasion of privacy. (Siripongs (1988) 45 Cal.3d 548; Siripongs (9th Cir. 1994) 35 F.3d 1308, 1320.)

If he didn't want someone quoting law to him, he shouldnt have been trying to place the blame on me right when he showed up.
I'll field this one for Outonbail ... It is "dangerous" for those not practiced in the law to simply lay out one section and assume it applies. You might be correct in your belief that CVC 22107 was the correct section. However, since you likely do not know all the laws regarding collisions and the vehicle code, you may not be correct.

I don't know what the officer was trying to say if he actually said that 22107 was not a "VC". He may have said that it was not a valid PCF (Primary Collision Factor) and depending on the circumstances, he might have been right. Very often, the PCF for a collision will be "unsafe speed" per CVC 22350. Obviously I cannot speak to the officer's intentions or what he tried to mention.

If he was out of line, he should not have been. But then, I wasn't there to experience what might have set him off. Sometimes people who believe they are acting completely reasonably can be seen as acting like twits to others ... it's a matter of interpretation.

- Carl
 

Zigner

Senior Member, Non-Attorney
I am not sure what the officer did with the PDA would count as a "confiscation". He took it out of your hand and put it on your seat. I really don't see that as being "confiscated"
I'm open to correction on this one of course :)
 

CdwJava

Senior Member
Zigner said:
I am not sure what the officer did with the PDA would count as a "confiscation". He took it out of your hand and put it on your seat. I really don't see that as being "confiscated"
I'm open to correction on this one of course :)
I don't see a lawful authority to seize it, but then, I wasn't there. If there was no lawful authority to seize it then there could be a problem. More likely an internal matter rather than a civil or criminal one.

- Carl
 

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