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  1. #1
    mrgonzo is offline Member
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    Right to Not Show Your Papers?

    I believe that in all 50 states (as long as your not driving) that as long as your not doing anything illegal you do NOT have to show police any form of identification if asked - other than verbally give your name and address.

    My question is: What if you are doing something technically wrong, like trespassing or fighting, Could you be arrested for not showing ID?

    For example I was with friends riding motorcycles on private property a while ago and police came and acted tough threatened to arrest us etc. However when they came, I was sitting in the cars passenger seat, I wasnt even riding. They asked me for ID and I told them I didnt have any and they then asked me for not only my name and address, but my social security number! Did they have the right to do that? What if I had refused to give them my social?
  2. #2
    The Occultist is offline Senior Member
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    US Law Only - WHEN POSTING A QUESTION, YOU MUST INCLUDE THE NAME OF YOUR STATE
  3. #3
    seniorjudge is offline Senior Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by mrgonzo View Post
    ...

    My question is: What if you are doing something technically wrong, like trespassing or fighting, Could you be arrested for not showing ID?

    ....


    The answer is [deleted for failure of poster to indicate state].
    There are two rules for success:

    (1) Never tell everything you know.
  4. #4
    mrgonzo is offline Member
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    I live in florida but as I clearly stated - the right not to show ID covers all 50 states; at least from what I understand - correct me if Im wrong.

    So again, what if you are doing something wrong or illegal, do you by law have to show ID?

    And, my problem with this is them asking for ID without charging you - if your charged with a crime I would show it, but when they are just fishing or deciding whether to charge you, then do we have to show ID?
  5. #5
    justalayman is offline Senior Member
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    I live in florida but as I clearly stated - the right not to show ID covers all 50 states; at least from what I understand - correct me if Im wrong.
    you are being corrected. Some states have different requirements and they have not been determined to be unconstitional as of yet. It is state and situation dependent.


    So again, what if you are doing something wrong or illegal, do you by law have to show ID?
    That is dependent upon state law.

    And, my problem with this is them asking for ID without charging you - if your charged with a crime I would show it, but when they are just fishing or deciding whether to charge you, then do we have to show ID?
    the SCOTUS did not render a decision that it was actually allowable for an officer to require disclosure of a form of ID or even to give any information that disclosed ID but merely that the law in Nevada that required such disclosures was constitionally permitted.

    Since in the case of Diaz v.Florida, a driver with a suspended license escaped a guilty verdict by arguing that an officers request for identification after an initial stop was proven to be incorrectly performed, the officers subsequent request (and eventual arrest) of the drivers license was improper and the appeal was upheld. Because of that, I suspect Florida has no requirement to require a casual encounter and request by an officer for identification to be legally followed.



    Maybe somebody will correct me but I can find not legal requirement to provide printed ID or even to disclose your identity in any situation in Florida.
  6. #6
    CdwJava is online now Senior Member
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    Some states (21 as i recall) require a detained individual to identify him or herself to the police when detained - the others do not. My state does not make such a requirement, but Nevada does, and NV was the source of the Hiibel decision which pretty much nailed the ID question with the SCOTUS.

    From the CA Attorney general:

    The U.S. Supreme Court has drawn a distinction between a detainee's duty to identify himself and his duty to answer non- identification questions during a lawful detention. In Berkemer (1984) 468 U.S. 420, 439, the court stated that a detainee is not obligated to answer any questions you put to him during a lawful detention. (Christian (9th Cir. 2004) 356 F.3d 1103.) However, in Hiibel, the Supreme Court clarified that it was not referring in Berkemer to questions regarding identity. The court upheld as constitutional a Nevada "stop and identify" statute and found that a detainee's failure to identify himself could be the basis for a lawful arrest under a companion statute almost identical to Penal Code section 148. (Hiibel (2004) 124 S.Ct. 2451.)
    Different states have different laws on the matter. However, ALL the states would require a lawful detention before identification would be required.

    - Carl
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    "Make mine a double mocha ...
    And a croissant!"

    Seek justice,
    Love mercy,
    Walk humbly with your God

    -- Courageous, by Casting Crowns ... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pkM-gDcmJeM
  7. #7
    justalayman is offline Senior Member
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    but as I see it, OP was in the commission of an illegal activity (tresspass) so the officer would have had the right based upon the lawful detention aspect.

    Since I had not addressed it previously, I do not believe one would be required to provide SSN though in any case.

    It still states on my SS card that it is not to be used for identification even so I would suggest that a refusal could be defended. (although it is used for ID purposes anyway)
  8. #8
    CdwJava is online now Senior Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by justalayman View Post
    but as I see it, OP was in the commission of an illegal activity (tresspass) so the officer would have had the right based upon the lawful detention aspect.
    That's how I would determine it. Passenger or not, he would seem to be a part of the offense.

    Since I had not addressed it previously, I do not believe one would be required to provide SSN though in any case.
    Usually, no. However, it may be required only for booking purposes because the government tends to want to know if a person receiving services is in custody because why send them money for food and such when they are in jail or prison and being provided these things?

    Off hand, I do not know if the law requires someone to give up their SSN when booked. We certainly cannot require it in the field.

    It still states on my SS card that it is not to be used for identification even so I would suggest that a refusal could be defended. (although it is used for ID purposes anyway)
    An SSN is bad ID because it is not connected to any database that contains a description of the person. If you had my SSN card and used my name, an officer could not verify that card based upon anything. They are easily duplicated, unable to be easily accessed, and thus are very poor identification.

    - Carl
    A Nor Cal Cop Sergeant

    "Make mine a double mocha ...
    And a croissant!"

    Seek justice,
    Love mercy,
    Walk humbly with your God

    -- Courageous, by Casting Crowns ... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pkM-gDcmJeM
  9. #9
    CJane is offline Senior Member
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    Is your DL # the same as your SSN?

    When I was stopped last year, I didn't have my DL on me, the Deputy asked for my SSN and was able to pull up my DL info... and my SSN is NOT my DL #.
  10. #10
    CdwJava is online now Senior Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by CJane View Post
    Is your DL # the same as your SSN?

    When I was stopped last year, I didn't have my DL on me, the Deputy asked for my SSN and was able to pull up my DL info... and my SSN is NOT my DL #.
    I'll bet he also ran your name and date of birth as well - THAT is what got the info on the DL.

    It is possible that your state might keep a record of SS numbers that are attached with the DL database, but I would think that to have a huge potential for misuse.

    More likely, they got it from your name and DOB. The SSN may have been to confirm any possible hits on warrant searches, or to verify in their local system which CJane you really were.

    We often ask for information that may not be needed. The more info the merrier.

    - Carl
    A Nor Cal Cop Sergeant

    "Make mine a double mocha ...
    And a croissant!"

    Seek justice,
    Love mercy,
    Walk humbly with your God

    -- Courageous, by Casting Crowns ... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pkM-gDcmJeM
  11. #11
    driven is offline Junior Member
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    I did some searching recently about being a passenger in a vehicle and whether or not they can legally ask for that info. It seems to be a grey area. The way I understand it is, they have the right to require ID from the driver as they are the one suspect for violating a law. Could be speeding, tail light broken, etc etc. In the case for the passenger, they need to suspect you of illegal activity. I believe the 4th ammendment covers this one as they can not detain you without reason.

    In your case you were on private property so you were doing something illegal. Therefore , they had the right to ask for ID.
  12. #12
    mrgonzo is offline Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by driven View Post
    In your case you were on private property so you were doing something illegal. Therefore , they had the right to ask for ID.
    I didn't have any ID on me; but lets say that I did have a Drivers License on me and I refused to show that to them. Why would I have to show it - isnt that for driving?

    There is no requirement for a national ID card and a drivers license isnt required if your not driving - so what law makes it a de-facto national ID?
  13. #13
    mrgonzo is offline Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by CJane View Post
    Is your DL # the same as your SSN?
    No, I know hawaii used to use ss numbers on drivers licenses, but they are phasing it out because I believe it was found illegal or unconstitutional, something of that sort.
  14. #14
    seniorjudge is offline Senior Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by mrgonzo View Post
    I didn't have any ID on me; but lets say that I did have a Drivers License on me and I refused to show that to them. Why would I have to show it - isnt that for driving?

    There is no requirement for a national ID card and a drivers license isnt required if your not driving - so what law makes it a de-facto national ID?

    If you do not show them what they ask and they do have a legitimate reason for wanting it then you may get charged with resisting arrest.
    There are two rules for success:

    (1) Never tell everything you know.
  15. #15
    CdwJava is online now Senior Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by mrgonzo View Post
    I didn't have any ID on me; but lets say that I did have a Drivers License on me and I refused to show that to them. Why would I have to show it - isnt that for driving?

    There is no requirement for a national ID card and a drivers license isnt required if your not driving - so what law makes it a de-facto national ID?
    Well, if they had intended to cite you for the trespassing they would then be allowed to take you into custody and book you until you could be printed and have your identity verified.

    You do not HAVE to have ID on you when you are not driving, but, the police then do not HAVE to let you go with a ticket, either.

    - Carl
    A Nor Cal Cop Sergeant

    "Make mine a double mocha ...
    And a croissant!"

    Seek justice,
    Love mercy,
    Walk humbly with your God

    -- Courageous, by Casting Crowns ... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pkM-gDcmJeM

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