Are there degrees of rape? (new york)

[dannyboy81]

Hello. I am researching information for a rape victim and I was curious if there are degrees of rape besides the obvious. I mean, if someone holds you at gunpoint etc, that is obviously rape. But what about something more subtle that involves psychological manipulation.
For instance, as an overly simplified example consider the following: guy is trying to have sex with a date, and she repeatedly says no. However, he lies and tells her he has some rare disease, and he will die if she does not sleep with him. He somehow convinces her, and she begrudgingly capitulates, only to find out later that he was lying. Obviously this example is a little extreme, but is this classified as some form of rape? It may sound ridiculous, but the victim in question was actually underage and very naive... we would like to have as many charges brought against the perpetrator (a much older man) as possible and want to know if this classifies as a charge in itself (in addition to the obvious statutory rape charge).
Any information you can provide would be extremely appreciated. Thank you for your time.

[Blue Meanie]

Originally Posted by dannyboy81

Hello. I am researching information for a rape victim and I was curious if there are degrees of rape besides the obvious. I mean, if someone holds you at gunpoint etc, that is obviously rape. But what about something more subtle that involves psychological manipulation.
For instance, as an overly simplified example consider the following: guy is trying to have sex with a date, and she repeatedly says no. However, he lies and tells her he has some rare disease, and he will die if she does not sleep with him. He somehow convinces her, and she begrudgingly capitulates, only to find out later that he was lying. Obviously this example is a little extreme, but is this classified as some form of rape? It may sound ridiculous, but the victim in question was actually underage and very naive... we would like to have as many charges brought against the perpetrator (a much older man) as possible and want to know if this classifies as a charge in itself (in addition to the obvious statutory rape charge).
Any information you can provide would be extremely appreciated. Thank you for your time.

How under-aged? The guy may have committed Statutory Rape...

In the scenario you described the girl would have to be either EXTREMELY young or very dumb.

[dannyboy81]

Yes, i mentioned the statutory rape charge. And as I stated, this was an overly exaggerated example. Basically what I am asking is, is there a classification of rape that isnt the "held at gunpoint of the street" variety. As in a girl repeatedly says "no", but then the guy uses some severe psychological manipulation, then the girl never says "yes, but allows it to happen.

[You Are Guilty]

http://public.leginfo.state.ny.us/menugetf.cgi?COMMONQUERY=LAWS

Click "PEN" (penal) and read section 130.

Keep in mind:
1) the victim doesn't get to choose what charges are brought;
2) if the sex occurred voluntarily via "trick" or "fraud" (assuming age is not an issue), it's likely not legally "rape", and no DA is going to touch it absent a minor being involved; and
3) certain sex offenses require corroboration beyond the victim's testimony (I think it's section 130.10, but not sure).

[dannyboy81]

To clarify further. Is there a classification of non-forcible (as in not a stranger with a knife) purposeful manipulation into sexual intercourse. As an example... consider a girl who was raped when she was a child and is greatly affected by this. Now, her current boyfriend wants to have sex, but she does not; she repeatedly says no and expresses that she does not want to. Knowing about her past, the boyfriend intensionally reconstructs the scene of her previous rape in order to put her into an almost zombie like state of shock where she is unable to resist or say no, and proceeds to have intercourse with her.

(this is just one example of the severe manipulation involved... the girl was also a minor and the man much older ... but i think this goes above and beyond just statutory rape)

[Blue Meanie]

Originally Posted by dannyboy81

To clarify further. Is there a classification of non-forcible (as in not a stranger with a knife) purposeful manipulation into sexual intercourse. As an example... consider a girl who was raped when she was a child and is greatly affected by this. Now, her current boyfriend wants to have sex, but she does not; she repeatedly says no and expresses that she does not want to. Knowing about her past, the boyfriend intensionally reconstructs the scene of her previous rape in order to put her into an almost zombie like state of shock where she is unable to resist or say no, and proceeds to have intercourse with her.

(this is just one example of the severe manipulation involved... the girl was also a minor and the man much older ... but i think this goes above and beyond just statutory rape)

How. Old. Is. The. Girl?

[dannyboy81]

Hmm... in first degree rape (130.35) it says:

----
A person is guilty of rape in the first degree when he or she engages
in sexual intercourse with another person:
2. Who is incapable of consent by reason of being physically helpless;
or
------

This might actually fall under this because the psychological state rendered her "physically helpless" what do you think?

[dannyboy81]

The girl was 15/16 and the guy was much older (almost 30)

[dannyboy81]

In (130.05) I see:

Where the offense charged is rape in the third degree as defined
in subdivision three of section 130.25, or criminal sexual act in the
third degree as defined in subdivision three of section 130.40, in
addition to forcible compulsion, circumstances under which, at the time
of the act of intercourse, oral sexual conduct or anal sexual conduct,
the victim clearly expressed that he or she did not consent to engage in
such act, and a reasonable person in the actor's situation would have
understood such person's words and acts as an expression of lack of
consent to such act under all the circumstances.
3. A person is deemed incapable of consent when he or she is:
(a) less than seventeen years old; or
(b) mentally disabled; or
(c) mentally incapacitated; or
(d) physically helpless; or


It seems like this is it..... condition a is fulfilled obviously...but which classification would you define the above scenario as, c or d?

Can a person be charged with two seperate cases of third degree rape, a and c, or is the single sentence harsher?

I just really don't feel this should be in the same category as if they just had sex perfectly consensually and she was just underage...this is far more diabolical and in some ways I think is worse than knife-point rape. The girl almost killed herself out of grief and anger, that she allowed it to happen.

[>Charlotte<]

A person is deemed incapable of consent when he or she is:
(a) less than seventeen years old; or
(b) mentally disabled; or
(c) mentally incapacitated; or
(d) physically helpless; or
(e) committed to the care and custody of the state department of correctional services or a hospital

"Physically helpless" means just what it says: that she was physically unable to resist.

You're going to a lot of trouble trying to meander your way around some abstract concept of what constitutes a rape victim. She was under seventeen. 'nuff said.

[dannyboy81]

I know what your saying. But my point is, there is no denying that these two scenarios different:

A) Girl is under 17, guy is much older; they are totally happily in love and she consents to sexual intercourse happily and enjoys it

B) Girl is under 17, guy is much older, she does not want to have sex and expresses this; he manipulates her and pressures her, manipulating her into situations where she is unable to resist; she feels disgusting about it; and the man is fully aware of what is going on, and fully aware that it is against her desires

My question is, are these two things scene as punishable to the exact same degree, or is the second case worse? Can the man get hit with multiple counts of the charge (one for the underage charge, and one for the "helplessness") etc or can the charge be more severe?


The situation is very complicated, so I would like us to have as many avenues of attack as possible. Also, on a personal level, I don't think she would get any closure or peace if he is only punished because she was underage...she needs him to be punished for his cruelty and sickness for her to finally be able to sleep at night.

[Blue Meanie]

Originally Posted by dannyboy81

The girl was 15/16 and the guy was much older (almost 30)

That is Statutory Rape. Tell the girl to file a complaint with the police right away. Stop trying to put a further "spin" on this. The Prosecutor's Office will determine if there are additional "special circumstances" that would deem additional charges.

If this girl is still a minor she should tell her parents about it so that they can file the complaint.

[>Charlotte<]

Has anything actually been done yet to start prosecuting the 30 year old, or are you (her family?) trying to figure out what he can be charged with, which degree of sexual assault applies, how he can be charged to the maximum extent, etc., before you make the call?

The people who will be prosecuting the adult are pretty good at figuring out what the charges should be, based on the facts of the case. They went to schools specifically designed to give them that knowledge, and it's not neccessary for you to present the whole case to them in a satin-lined box all tied up with a pretty bow.

Make the call. They'll figure it out. That's their job.

[Blue Meanie]

The situation is very complicated, so I would like us to have as many avenues of attack as possible. Also, on a personal level, I don't think she would get any closure or peace if he is only punished because she was underage...she needs him to be punished for his cruelty and sickness for her to finally be able to sleep at night.

YOU don't have the authority to "attack" this. The DA's office does. She can continue to sit on her ass until the SOL expires and he is scott free to do this to another child or SHE can file a complaint. Your ridiculous attempt to find another angle is a waste of time.

[>Charlotte<]

Originally Posted by dannyboy81

Also, on a personal level, I don't think she would get any closure or peace if he is only punished because she was underage...she needs him to be punished for his cruelty and sickness for her to finally be able to sleep at night.

If her experience is causing her psychological problems, she doesn't need a D.A., she needs therapy. Let the prosecutor take care of the 30 year old, you take care of your daughter (or whomever she is to you.)