when is it ok for a police officer to draw his weapon

[carsben353]

What is the name of your state? What is the name of your state? VIRGINIA

When is it ok for a police officer to draw his weapon?

Me and a coworker were riding our motorcycles on a local interstate when ACCORDING TO THE POLICE OFFICER, I made a pass of a vehichle and shortly after my coworker followed suit. Upon observing this pass the officer enganged his lights and siren and pulled behind us. My coworker pulled over immediatley and the officer pulled off the interstate behind him. Upon observing that I had not pulled over the officer pulled back onto the intersate and pulled behind me. I continued to drive with the officer behind me with his sirens and lights for about a mile until I pulled over.

THE FACTS FROM MY PERSPECTIVE OF THE OFFENSE

The police officer never directly told me at any time exactly what the offense was. I did overhear him talking to the dispatcher which is how I know his general side of the story.
I did pass a vehichle I am sure I was in excess of the speed limit during the pass but no more than 10-15 mph over the posted limit. Although I was not paying attention to my speedometer during the pass I can infer that my speed was not extremley excessive because I was cruising behind the vehichle I passed for a matter of seconds before I made the pass. I know how fast the car was going that I passed because the when the officer was talking to the dispatcher she asked about speed and he explained that he did not have our motorcycles paced but the vehichle we passed was paced at 72. While I unknowingly continued to drive with the police officer behind me I stayed in the left lane at a constant speed of no more than 10 to 15 mph over the speed limit. I initially never saw the officer pull over my coworker nor did I see him pull off or behind me I happended to check my mirrors and that is when I saw the police officer. I imediatley slowed down and turned on my blinker checked my right mirror and moved to the right shoulder. I put my kickstand down and turned off my motorcycle. As soon as the officer had come to a complete stop he flew out of his vehichle with his gun drawn. He yelled to me to "dismount my bike and lay face down on the concrete, hurry up or I will take you off the bike." I did as instructed and as soon as I was face down on the pavement he ran up and put his knees on my back and cuffed me. He then asked if I had any weapons and frisked me ripping out all things I had in my pocket and tossing them to the side. He then told me to roll up on my knees and he took me to the trunk of his car where he removed my helmet. He asked if the cuffs were to tight which they were and I told him so, he then adjusted them. He then put me in the back of the car and starting talking to the dispatcher. After a few minutes he turned to me and asked me why I did not stop. I told him I did. He said how he had been following me and I told him how I had no idea. I told him I checked my mirrors I saw him and immediatley pulled over. He got on the radio and told the dispatcher what I had said and then told the dispatcher that he agreed after talking with me that I probably did not hear the siren. In a nutshell he wrote me a ticket for "general reckelss driving" which in the commonwealth of virginia means driving with wanton (maliciouse on purpose) reckless disregard to life limb and personal property. Under the law code he also whrote racing in parentheses. ( racing by the way in the state of virginia is a completely different law code)

Here are my questions:
I asked the police officer why he had pulled his weapon on me, he told me I was asking suspiciouse while pulling over. My first concern is that I was on a motorcycle in plain view in the daylight it is very dangerouse to take your hands off the handlebars while pulling onto the shoulder and I did no such thing. How suspiciouse could I look?

I was under the impression that a police officer was only supposed to draw his weapon as a last resort when he believes that he needs to defend himself or others. With the situation outlined above does it seem as though the officer used excessive force?

Does the fact that he drew his weapon on a suspicion of felony evading police matter?

If the police officer had pulled next to me I would have observed him sooner and would have pulled over sooner. Should a police officer realize this and make every attempt to let his prescence be known?

The particular sportsbike I own is a 1000cc bike. It has a 1/4 mile time of less than 9 seconds and a top speed of 178 mph. Does the officer have grounds to suspect felony evading when I did not move from the left lane with a constant speed of likely 70 mph?
The officer also said that a lot of motorcycles try and run on that particular road should he realize the difference in my actions?

Does the way that he restrained me (with my face down and his knees on my back) constitute my actions up to that point? I was under the impression that being cuffed like that was procedure for a suspect that was showing minor to moderate resistance to arrest.

I was thinking of filing a request for discovery can you acheive the officers car video that way?

Sorry for the novel.

 

[CdwJava]

When is it ok for a police officer to draw his weapon?

When he feels it is necessary. There may be agency policy that further limits the circumstances, but legally there is no real bright line rule stating when an officer can or can not draw their weapon ... with some exceptions, like using the weapon to intimidate someone you are interrogating.

Upon observing that I had not pulled over the officer pulled back onto the intersate and pulled behind me. I continued to drive with the officer behind me with his sirens and lights for about a mile until I pulled over.

We call that "failure to yield" in my state.

The police officer never directly told me at any time exactly what the offense was.

At the time of the contact, he does not have to tell you this.

I did pass a vehichle I am sure I was in excess of the speed limit during the pass but no more than 10-15 mph over the posted limit.

So, you did indeed violate the law.

As soon as the officer had come to a complete stop he flew out of his vehichle with his gun drawn.

Apparently he felt you were some kind of a threat.

He yelled to me to "dismount my bike and lay face down on the concrete, hurry up or I will take you off the bike." I did as instructed and as soon as I was face down on the pavement he ran up and put his knees on my back and cuffed me.

Typical for a "felony" or "high risk" stop. Apparently he felt there was some risk posed by you. He is allowed to do this, by the way.

He asked if the cuffs were to tight which they were and I told him so, he then adjusted them.

That sounds very reasonable to me.

In a nutshell he wrote me a ticket for "general reckelss driving" which in the commonwealth of virginia means driving with wanton (maliciouse on purpose) reckless disregard to life limb and personal property. Under the law code he also whrote racing in parentheses. ( racing by the way in the state of virginia is a completely different law code)

How HORRIBLE of him! He actually decided he should cite you for a lesser offense than failing to yield!

I was on a motorcycle in plain view in the daylight it is very dangerouse to take your hands off the handlebars while pulling onto the shoulder and I did no such thing. How suspiciouse could I look?

Apparently to the officer, you DID look like a potential threat. I have known officers killed by otherwise innocuous folks in broad daylight. The standard in these situations is what another "reasonable officer" might do under the same circumstances.

I was under the impression that a police officer was only supposed to draw his weapon as a last resort when he believes that he needs to defend himself or others.

You thought wrong.

I occasionally unholster and draw my weapon leaving it held behind my thigh when I approach a car ... sometimes the unknown can e sufficient to justify drawing the weapon.

With the situation outlined above does it seem as though the officer used excessive force?

He did not use any force.

However, if you feel that he was inappropriate, you may file a complaint against the officer with his agency, and if you feel you might have a lawsuit, you may consult an attorney.

Does the fact that he drew his weapon on a suspicion of felony evading police matter?

It would only strengthen his good cause.

If the police officer had pulled next to me I would have observed him sooner and would have pulled over sooner. Should a police officer realize this and make every attempt to let his prescence be known?

Lights and sirens are pretty much what we are required and trained to do ... we are NOT trained to drive along side ... there are some very real safety reasons not to do that - for both the driver and the officer.

Does the officer have grounds to suspect felony evading when I did not move from the left lane with a constant speed of likely 70 mph?

I suppose. But, since you were not charged with felony evading, the matter is moot.

The officer also said that a lot of motorcycles try and run on that particular road should he realize the difference in my actions?

Mind reading is not taught in the academy - officer safety is.

Does the way that he restrained me (with my face down and his knees on my back) constitute my actions up to that point? I was under the impression that being cuffed like that was procedure for a suspect that was showing minor to moderate resistance to arrest.

That sounds like proper procedure for a felony stop to me. Had he wanted to, he could have kept you proned out until backup arrived. He opted not to do that. And THEN he opted to adjust your cuffs.

I was thinking of filing a request for discovery can you acheive the officers car video that way?

You can certainly make the request. However, understand that how you were detained is entirely irrelevant to the charge for which you were charged. If you want to take some action against the officer for his detention technique, file a complaint with his agency and consult an attorney.


- Carl

 

[carsben353]

I was not leaning particularly either way I was curiouse to procedure. Obviously if someone had responded that everything the officer did was wrong I might explore filing a complaint. I tried to write the thread as unbiased as reasonably possible which is why I added the facts that I was breaking the law and the cop said he presumed I was felony evading. The request for discovery question wasn't actually in regards to the cops procedure during the arrest. I just wanted to know if you could recieve the video through that request or motion. Obviously if wanted to sue I would need to obtain the video under different circumstances. I am possibly interested in obtaining the video to argue that the pass I made was not wanton reckless disregard to life limb and personal property or to show racing was not involved in the incident. I am not sure if the racing point is moot considering the law code on the ticket is not for racing (racing was written underneath the law code for general reckless driving but has its own law code not on the ticket) As far as the cop not writing me the ticket for "failure to yeild" or "felony evading" he admitted in the squad car multiple times that he figured I might not hear the siren. Thank you for your answers.

 

[CdwJava]

There may not have been video of the alleged unlawful act as the video may not have been operating at the time. few systems operate the entire time. They tend to operate when manually activated or when the emergency lights are turned on.

- carl

 

[mr.blue]

It sounds aggressive and excessive to me. Racing is not a serious crime, neither is speeding. It sounds to me like RAMBO was board that day.
Was it illegal, or did he do something wrong - probably not. The police have gotten free reign as of late. Be happy they did not make you lay in the mud while other vehicles zoomed by you at high speed while being distracted by the flashing lights on the police car. Be happy he did not kick your bike over so it could not escape.
What to do to stop police intimidation - vote for a candidate that will support you rights as innocent untill proven quilty.
Why did the police lower the potential charges - its not because he was trying to be nice - it is because he knows it was excessive, and he was trying to make it look good if it went to court.
Just be happy you did not get killed -PAy the ticket, and continue you life as it was.
But when you vote keep this event in mind.

 

[The Occultist]

It sounds aggressive and excessive to me. Racing is not a serious crime, neither is speeding. It sounds to me like RAMBO was board that day.
Was it illegal, or did he do something wrong - probably not. The police have gotten free reign as of late. Be happy they did not make you lay in the mud while other vehicles zoomed by you at high speed while being distracted by the flashing lights on the police car. Be happy he did not kick your bike over so it could not escape.
What to do to stop police intimidation - vote for a candidate that will support you rights as innocent untill proven quilty.
Why did the police lower the potential charges - its not because he was trying to be nice - it is because he knows it was excessive, and he was trying to make it look good if it went to court.
Just be happy you did not get killed -PAy the ticket, and continue you life as it was.
But when you vote keep this event in mind.

Oh lord

It wasn't the racing or the speeding that provoked the officer's reaction, it was the failure to yield after the officer was trying to pull him over. Officers don't know the reason people aren't pulling over; maybe they have some friends waiting around the bend to ambush the officer. When people don't pull over, officers get nervous. They are trained to react in the way this officer did.

 

[dhawk52]

You stated that he was following you for close to a mile, before you pulled over. You are probably lucky that he did not charge you will felony evading arrest.

 

[mr.blue]

Oh lord

It wasn't the racing or the speeding that provoked the officer's reaction, it was the failure to yield after the officer was trying to pull him over. Officers don't know the reason people aren't pulling over; maybe they have some friends waiting around the bend to ambush the officer. When people don't pull over, officers get nervous. They are trained to react in the way this officer did.

Yea but thats the BS we are all supposed to believe. They (the police) always go for the worst case idea. What happened to "INNOCENT untill proven guilty"
Instead of getting all upset about an ambush that never existed, maybe just relize that the suspect is human and maybe did not see the flashing lights. Maybe last night a person was behind them with unajusted headlights so the suspect moved the rearview mirror to avoid the glair and then forgot to adjust it back today. or any number of other reasons.

 

[CJane]

Am I the only one who finds it difficult to believe that someone exceeding the speedlimit by 10-15 mph, passing a car who was already exceeding the speed limit (unless the speed limit was 72), and then failing to 'notice' that a cop was behind them with lights and sirens going for a MILE can't figure out why the cops would think something hinky might be happening?

If the dude is so unaware of his surroundings WHILE SPEEDING that he doesn't notice a fully lit and loud car behind him, he probably shouldn't be on the road.

 

[CdwJava]

Yea but thats the BS we are all supposed to believe. They (the police) always go for the worst case idea. What happened to "INNOCENT untill proven guilty"

He was not punished for anything.

"Innocent until proven guilty" has NOTHING to do with officer safety.

If you have a beef about the officer's lawful ability to draw his weapon to confront a situation that he feels may be unsafe, take it up with the United States Supreme Court and all the state and federal legislatures.

At best, it's a personnel issue, but as long as the officer can articulate some perceived threat, then the drawing of his weapon would be lawful and likely within policy.

If the agency policy adds a greater restriction to the drawing of a weapon, then they may certainly do so. No agency worth it's salt would do so, but they could.

Now, had he SHOT the guy after the stop, THEN there might be a HUGE problem!

Instead of getting all upset about an ambush that never existed, maybe just relize that the suspect is human and maybe did not see the flashing lights. Maybe last night a person was behind them with unajusted headlights so the suspect moved the rearview mirror to avoid the glair and then forgot to adjust it back today. or any number of other reasons.

This is precisely why he was not cited for evading. After the situation was secure, the officer listened to the driver, evaluated the circumstances, and came to a reasonable conclusion. This is what one would expect to happen.

- Carl

 

[CdwJava]

Am I the only one who finds it difficult to believe that someone exceeding the speedlimit by 10-15 mph, passing a car who was already exceeding the speed limit (unless the speed limit was 72), and then failing to 'notice' that a cop was behind them with lights and sirens going for a MILE can't figure out why the cops would think something hinky might be happening?

If the dude is so unaware of his surroundings WHILE SPEEDING that he doesn't notice a fully lit and loud car behind him, he probably shouldn't be on the road.

As a side note, the reason officers are not encouraged to use sirens on the freeway is that the sound cannot often be heard until the vehicle is right upon a driver and this often results in a sudden surprise reaction from a driver, and sometimes the 'surprise" can be dangerous. We are trained to kill the siren when we enter a freeway ... most of us do this ... not everyone does.

Plus, motorcycles have those helmets, and depending on the helmet, the ears could be partially baffled.

- Carl

 

[mr.blue]

He was not punished for anything.

- Carl

Having a weapon pointed at you aint punishment?
Who are you kidding. This is a perfect example of police use of threat of force going to far.
The way you see it is the citizen is guilty untill the police learns otherwise. This is not right in this country. But don't waste your time talking to me AS stated in another thread you have been indoctrinated into the force and you only see things a certain way. Even if confronted with an alternate possibility.
In my oppinion its becoming us against them and you are a them.
You are like the bridge inspector that said the bridge is fine - days befor it collasped
Or the knowedgable people who swore about weapons of mass destruction - only to find none.
The medical professional who said the vaccine was safe -and yet kids got sick for life

No the trust is going... going.....gone.

 

[CdwJava]

Having a weapon pointed at you aint punishment?

Nope, it ain't.

Who are you kidding. This is a perfect example of police use of threat of force going to far.

Hardly.

How many times have YOU wrestled in the mud with a suspect trying to take your gun? How about with someone who charged you from their car?

How many times have you been shot at by someone you tried to stop for a "nothing" offense?

These have all happened to me, and the status of the law and training permits officers to use that force which is reasonable to protect themselves.

Would you have rather the officer waited to be assaulted? I tell you right now, this is how officers die. When they interview cop killers, the first thing they tell you is that they attacked because the officer left them the opening.

No officer who heeds his training is going to leave that door open. Better to display a weapon and not have to use it then to have needed it and die with it still in your holster.

The way you see it is the citizen is guilty untill the police learns otherwise. This is not right in this country.

NOTHING in this situation has ANYTHING AT ALL to do with "guilt".

But don't waste your time talking to me AS stated in another thread you have been indoctrinated into the force and you only see things a certain way. Even if confronted with an alternate possibility.

Oh brother ... hey, don't argue with me - argue with THE LAW. THE LAW says it is perfectly lawful to use this level of force in most circumstances. if you do not like the law, then change it.

My state had two funerals this last week for officers murdered by "kids" who they were attempting to speak to in otherwise consensual encounters. Yes, even otherwise innocuous encounters can result in a dead officer. last week it resulted in two.

In my oppinion its becoming us against them and you are a them.

I am truly sorry to hear that.

How about this, I guess I can stand with the majority who believe in law and order and the rule of law we can be "us" ... you can be "them".


- Carl

 

[Rhino1XL]

Carsben353...... The officer put his knee into your back while restraining you? Right?
Are you feeling any back pain as a result?

Just some food for thinking! LOL!

Seams a little excessive. Seek some legal advise elsewhere!

Oh, and Blue. Try listening to Rush Limbaugh!!

 

[CdwJava]

Carsben353...... The officer put his knee into your back while restraining you? Right?
Are you feeling any back pain as a result?

Just some food for thinking! LOL!

Seams a little excessive. Seek some legal advise elsewhere!

Oh, and Blue. Try listening to Rush Limbaugh!!

A knee to the back MIGHT have been excessive, but probably not. Would the agency be liable for any injury? More than likely, sure. Even if the force was justifiable, the agency is very often liable.

It is common to crouch over a subject being arrested who is proned on his stomach with one knee over or upon the lower back and the other over the high or upper leg. This is to help prevent the person from moving, to block a kick, and to allow access to the small of the back for searching and handcuffing. It also allows the officer the option of springing backwards or standing should that be the preferable response.

He can seek legal advice from whomever he wishes to pay. However, drawing a weapon is not injury ... and unless he used it to coerce a confession (which he did not indicate) or otherwise perform an unlawful act (none of which has been articulated) it is a pointless effort. But, everyone has the right to expend their money as they see fit.

- Carl