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iwasrearended
Guest
What is the name of your state? PA Can the other person's insurance company be held liable for bad faith handling of my claim? They have ignored the facts that show, without question, that their insured was at fault.
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I
iwasrearended
Guest
Answer to reply
I have only reported this to my carrier for reporting purposes only. The other person refused to speak with my insurance company, and also did not report it to his. I reported it to them and they had to call him. I spoke with the claims rep today, and she told me that he told them that I backed into him, which again, is completely impossible considering where the damages are on each vehicle. She told me that she has to believe her policyholder before believing me. I told her that she has to remain unbiased and look at the damages and that this will show that the accident happened the way I explained it and could not possibly have happened the way he told it. From speaking with her, she is completely confused about which way the vehicles were moving and just plain does not seem to have the competence level to handle this claim. It is apparent that she has no concept of the directional movement of a vehicle when the wheel is turned. Will it be of any help to ask for a supervisor to speak with and demand that someone with more experience review the scenario? What irks me even more is that this other guy just plain flat out lied and he may end up getting away with it. Will the insurance commission even bother to follow through with this if I complain to them?
I have only reported this to my carrier for reporting purposes only. The other person refused to speak with my insurance company, and also did not report it to his. I reported it to them and they had to call him. I spoke with the claims rep today, and she told me that he told them that I backed into him, which again, is completely impossible considering where the damages are on each vehicle. She told me that she has to believe her policyholder before believing me. I told her that she has to remain unbiased and look at the damages and that this will show that the accident happened the way I explained it and could not possibly have happened the way he told it. From speaking with her, she is completely confused about which way the vehicles were moving and just plain does not seem to have the competence level to handle this claim. It is apparent that she has no concept of the directional movement of a vehicle when the wheel is turned. Will it be of any help to ask for a supervisor to speak with and demand that someone with more experience review the scenario? What irks me even more is that this other guy just plain flat out lied and he may end up getting away with it. Will the insurance commission even bother to follow through with this if I complain to them?
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Raisinette
Guest
I take it there were no independent witneesses or police report? If you believe you can establish the the damages themselves prove your case, by all means ask to talk to a supervisor. That is the best place to start.
The insurance company has a duty to their policyholder first. If it is just one person's word against anothers, they have a duty to take their policyholder's word -- other things being equal.
Most accidents involving damage to front of one vehicle and rear of another are caused by vehicle in rear. But this is not always true. It is not usually possible to ascertain merely from the damage which vehicle was legally in the right and which was not.
Insurance commissioner's office usually serve to see that the insurance company operates by certain strictures in handling claims, but they do not, to my knowledge, render judgments about liability or damages.
I would try the supervisor first. Failing that, you could file an insurance commisioner's complaint if you felt it might be of help. It sometimes can garner closer review and overturning of decision.
Small claims court would also be an option, and if you believe you can fairly & fully make your case to a judge and are likely to be believed, that is a good though infrequently undertaken way to go.
(You have not referred to any personal injuries, so I am assuming these are not present. If they are, you need to advise both insurance companies of this also.)
The insurance company has a duty to their policyholder first. If it is just one person's word against anothers, they have a duty to take their policyholder's word -- other things being equal.
Most accidents involving damage to front of one vehicle and rear of another are caused by vehicle in rear. But this is not always true. It is not usually possible to ascertain merely from the damage which vehicle was legally in the right and which was not.
Insurance commissioner's office usually serve to see that the insurance company operates by certain strictures in handling claims, but they do not, to my knowledge, render judgments about liability or damages.
I would try the supervisor first. Failing that, you could file an insurance commisioner's complaint if you felt it might be of help. It sometimes can garner closer review and overturning of decision.
Small claims court would also be an option, and if you believe you can fairly & fully make your case to a judge and are likely to be believed, that is a good though infrequently undertaken way to go.
(You have not referred to any personal injuries, so I am assuming these are not present. If they are, you need to advise both insurance companies of this also.)
I
iwasrearended
Guest
reply from original poster
The damages to the 2 vehicles are absolutely impossible from the story of the other guy. They are trying to say that I was backing out of a parking spot and into him. In fact, I had safely and completely backed from a parking spot, then, while already in drive, I saw him in my rear view mirror approaching way too fast. I stepped on the gas and drove into the parking space that I had exited so that he wouldn't crush my rear. He apparently wasn't looking, as he never slowed or hit his brakes, and scraped across my rear bumper. He hit my car with the right rear of his car, from the front of the rear wheel opening, to the rear bumper or his car. My damage was only on the right half of the rear bumper cover, and not down the side of it at all. Only the portion facing to the back, from under the right side of the license pocket to under the right taillamp. If I were backing out to his direction, the left end of my rear bumper would be further out in his pathway, than the right end, however he missed that completely. Backing out, my left end of the rear bumper would have continued further into his pathway, and again, he missed that altogether. The insurance company told me that maybe I was backing out to the other side, and I explained that with that scenario, the back facing part of my rear bumper would not even have been exposed to him to hit, and he would have had to hit the side portion of my rear bumper or the side of my car. Then they said that maybe he swerved to miss me. I explained that had he done that, it would have further driven his rear into my rear as the front of his car turned the opposite way, and still continued across my entire bumper. If I had stopped, he still would have had to continue along my bumper. I should mention that the damage is lighter to the right end of the bumper, and gets deeper toward the center, which says to me that he actually did cut his wheel the opposite direction immediately prior to impact, which is why the front of his car didn't hit me, but the rear side of his car did hit me because the rear must have swayed in my direction enough to make contact. The only thing that kept the damage from continuing across the entire bumper is the fact that I was driving forward when he hit me, and by the time he got to the left half of the my bumper, my car had moved forward the last bit into the parking spot and it was not there anymore for him to hit. The only thing that can be questioned is whether I was fully within the parking spot when he hit me. It is an impossibility that I was moving backward or stopped. I was there, so I just happen to know that I was fully within the parking spot, especially since the parking spaces there are unusually long and leaving about an extra 4 feet behind all vehicles when parked there (except for full size pickups that fit perfectly in these spaces). Either way, he has lied completely about how this happened. I was in drive, safely in the aisle, and driving forward when he hit me, and he did not have control of his vehicle. There are 2 full driving lanes there that he could have avoided me with, had he been paying attention and not driving too fast.
The insurance company has already taken 2.5 weeks and still have not given me any answers. They told me that he did not supply them with a diagram, even though it is required on their accident report, and they told me that they haven't seen the photos of his car yet, and still they are arguing with me on his behalf. On what basis? He didn't even report this to them. I had to report it and they had to call him. He refused to give a statement to my insurance company at all.
Perhaps what I have illustrated doesn't come across so clearly in writing, but I know that in person, I can show anyone that the damages do show that he cannot be telling the truth. The claims supervisor told me that the damages are not facts, but rather just my opinion. I told him that the damages are the cold hard evidence in this, and not just an opinion. Apparently, neither the claims person or the supervisor has ever done any type of field work, but rather just playing guessing games throughout their careers. It kills me to know that I actually have my homeowner's insurance with this company, which I will be changing ASAP, and even worse, I have sent them close to 100 customers in the past 2 years, in the capacity of my current job.
As an added consolation to this, when I talked with the claims person, she made it very clear to me that just because I used to be a claims adjuster, doesn't make any difference to her. Guess what? I never told her that I was an adjuster. I knew the field appraiser, as I did spend about 10 years as a field material damage adjuster, and also knew him from when I ran a body shop for a few years. It seemed like she couldn't wait to throw it in my face that she knew that I was an adjuster. I mentioned this to the supervisor and asked him how this was pertinent to anything. I told him that now that his company has brought this to light, at least now they know that I do have expertise in this area and that is why I was able to provide them with 14 pages to support my position. No, I didn't write 14 pages. Five were photographs, and 4 were diagrams showing the progression of the accident. Yes, I actually typed a full 5 pages though.
Am I getting a bit long winded here too? Anyway, how do I go about taking this to small claims court? Also, will it do me any good to report this as insurance fraud to the IFPA (insurance fraud pennsylvania...it stands for something like that)? He is definitely guilty of insurance fraud.
The damages to the 2 vehicles are absolutely impossible from the story of the other guy. They are trying to say that I was backing out of a parking spot and into him. In fact, I had safely and completely backed from a parking spot, then, while already in drive, I saw him in my rear view mirror approaching way too fast. I stepped on the gas and drove into the parking space that I had exited so that he wouldn't crush my rear. He apparently wasn't looking, as he never slowed or hit his brakes, and scraped across my rear bumper. He hit my car with the right rear of his car, from the front of the rear wheel opening, to the rear bumper or his car. My damage was only on the right half of the rear bumper cover, and not down the side of it at all. Only the portion facing to the back, from under the right side of the license pocket to under the right taillamp. If I were backing out to his direction, the left end of my rear bumper would be further out in his pathway, than the right end, however he missed that completely. Backing out, my left end of the rear bumper would have continued further into his pathway, and again, he missed that altogether. The insurance company told me that maybe I was backing out to the other side, and I explained that with that scenario, the back facing part of my rear bumper would not even have been exposed to him to hit, and he would have had to hit the side portion of my rear bumper or the side of my car. Then they said that maybe he swerved to miss me. I explained that had he done that, it would have further driven his rear into my rear as the front of his car turned the opposite way, and still continued across my entire bumper. If I had stopped, he still would have had to continue along my bumper. I should mention that the damage is lighter to the right end of the bumper, and gets deeper toward the center, which says to me that he actually did cut his wheel the opposite direction immediately prior to impact, which is why the front of his car didn't hit me, but the rear side of his car did hit me because the rear must have swayed in my direction enough to make contact. The only thing that kept the damage from continuing across the entire bumper is the fact that I was driving forward when he hit me, and by the time he got to the left half of the my bumper, my car had moved forward the last bit into the parking spot and it was not there anymore for him to hit. The only thing that can be questioned is whether I was fully within the parking spot when he hit me. It is an impossibility that I was moving backward or stopped. I was there, so I just happen to know that I was fully within the parking spot, especially since the parking spaces there are unusually long and leaving about an extra 4 feet behind all vehicles when parked there (except for full size pickups that fit perfectly in these spaces). Either way, he has lied completely about how this happened. I was in drive, safely in the aisle, and driving forward when he hit me, and he did not have control of his vehicle. There are 2 full driving lanes there that he could have avoided me with, had he been paying attention and not driving too fast.
The insurance company has already taken 2.5 weeks and still have not given me any answers. They told me that he did not supply them with a diagram, even though it is required on their accident report, and they told me that they haven't seen the photos of his car yet, and still they are arguing with me on his behalf. On what basis? He didn't even report this to them. I had to report it and they had to call him. He refused to give a statement to my insurance company at all.
Perhaps what I have illustrated doesn't come across so clearly in writing, but I know that in person, I can show anyone that the damages do show that he cannot be telling the truth. The claims supervisor told me that the damages are not facts, but rather just my opinion. I told him that the damages are the cold hard evidence in this, and not just an opinion. Apparently, neither the claims person or the supervisor has ever done any type of field work, but rather just playing guessing games throughout their careers. It kills me to know that I actually have my homeowner's insurance with this company, which I will be changing ASAP, and even worse, I have sent them close to 100 customers in the past 2 years, in the capacity of my current job.
As an added consolation to this, when I talked with the claims person, she made it very clear to me that just because I used to be a claims adjuster, doesn't make any difference to her. Guess what? I never told her that I was an adjuster. I knew the field appraiser, as I did spend about 10 years as a field material damage adjuster, and also knew him from when I ran a body shop for a few years. It seemed like she couldn't wait to throw it in my face that she knew that I was an adjuster. I mentioned this to the supervisor and asked him how this was pertinent to anything. I told him that now that his company has brought this to light, at least now they know that I do have expertise in this area and that is why I was able to provide them with 14 pages to support my position. No, I didn't write 14 pages. Five were photographs, and 4 were diagrams showing the progression of the accident. Yes, I actually typed a full 5 pages though.
Am I getting a bit long winded here too? Anyway, how do I go about taking this to small claims court? Also, will it do me any good to report this as insurance fraud to the IFPA (insurance fraud pennsylvania...it stands for something like that)? He is definitely guilty of insurance fraud.
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teflon_jones
Senior Member
Why don't you file it with your insurance company and let them work it out? It's in their best interest to have the other person's insurance pay 100% of the damages, so they'll fight for you. And they do it all the time so they know the ropes.
I'm surprised the other guy didn't file it with your insurance company already...
I'm surprised the other guy didn't file it with your insurance company already...
R
Raisinette
Guest
Rearended: Your story in a nutshell: you were fully within a parking space in a parking lot, in forward motion to avoid an out-of-control vehicle you had seen approaching in your mirror which nevertheless struck the right half of your rear bumper with the right rear side of their vehicle.
I suppose it's possible. Your verbosity, your extreme adamance and your wild-flung accusations (bad faith? insurance fraud?) probably do not help your case.
As Teflon says, file it with your company. Or take it to small claims court. I predict the judge will either find you righteous or slightly insane.
Call the small claims court and ask how to file. Sounds like you have your documentation already lined up.
I suppose it's possible. Your verbosity, your extreme adamance and your wild-flung accusations (bad faith? insurance fraud?) probably do not help your case.
As Teflon says, file it with your company. Or take it to small claims court. I predict the judge will either find you righteous or slightly insane.
Call the small claims court and ask how to file. Sounds like you have your documentation already lined up.
Two reasons you may not want tp go thru your own Insurance are; your damage is below your deductible or the damage is more than the deductible and you don't have the money to pay for the ded. With this scenerio,you may be better off pursuing the claim via small claims. In small claims, the better you show evidence, physical or otherwise,the better the judge understands your version. And if the facts in your case is what you purport, than I believe a judge may rule in your favor.At the small claims hearing, be neatly dressed and address the judge as your honor and not Sir.
From what you say, I don't see any bad faith on the part of the claimants carrier. They have made a decision based on their investigation and although their decision doesn't appear to be consistent with the facts you state, the courts probably don't view their decision as one that is totally biased. And whoever told you that Insurance Companies make it their policy to take their insd's side on disputed liability is wrong. The Dept of Insurance for each State regulate the way Insurers have to deal with customers(which includes both insureds and claimants) in issues relating to claims.
It is possible the Dept of Ins may side with you as to who is at fault for this accident but their siding cannot change the decision made by the carrier.The only thing the Dept can tell is whether the carrier was not in compliance with any of the regulations set up by the Dept of Ins. I have seen that if the carrier has reasons to believe they may have been in violation of one of the requirements of the Dept's regulation, they may choose to pay your claim without any admission of fault on their insured's part. You may force this carrier to pay your claim in full if you can send them a letter saying you intend to refer your claim to the Dept of Ins as you believe your claim has been wrongly denied. Hey, look at it this way, you got nothing to loose by letting the carrier know your intentions regarding the Dept of Ins.
Good luck, lucky one.
From what you say, I don't see any bad faith on the part of the claimants carrier. They have made a decision based on their investigation and although their decision doesn't appear to be consistent with the facts you state, the courts probably don't view their decision as one that is totally biased. And whoever told you that Insurance Companies make it their policy to take their insd's side on disputed liability is wrong. The Dept of Insurance for each State regulate the way Insurers have to deal with customers(which includes both insureds and claimants) in issues relating to claims.
It is possible the Dept of Ins may side with you as to who is at fault for this accident but their siding cannot change the decision made by the carrier.The only thing the Dept can tell is whether the carrier was not in compliance with any of the regulations set up by the Dept of Ins. I have seen that if the carrier has reasons to believe they may have been in violation of one of the requirements of the Dept's regulation, they may choose to pay your claim without any admission of fault on their insured's part. You may force this carrier to pay your claim in full if you can send them a letter saying you intend to refer your claim to the Dept of Ins as you believe your claim has been wrongly denied. Hey, look at it this way, you got nothing to loose by letting the carrier know your intentions regarding the Dept of Ins.
Good luck, lucky one.
R
Raisinette
Guest
Sorry, Fejee, I'm taking issue with a few things you say. First, I did not tell OP that insurance companies "make it their policy to take their insd's side on disputed liability." I told him, "If it is just one person's word against anothers, they have a duty to take their policyholder's word -- other things being equal."
See the difference?
Second, I have not known insurance commissioner offices to adjudge liability. They will oversee adherence to fair claims handling practices.
Third, all claims paid by insurance company are paid without admission of fault.
See the difference?
Second, I have not known insurance commissioner offices to adjudge liability. They will oversee adherence to fair claims handling practices.
Third, all claims paid by insurance company are paid without admission of fault.
I
iwasrearended
Guest
the story continues
The insurance company has sent me a denial letter in the mail. The letter was dated October 21, 2004. On October 22, 2004, at 4:30 pm and prior to receiving the denial letter on the 23rd, I called the insurance company for a final time for that day. They had not returned the calls for the other 2 messages I left. I was told that my adjuster was gone for the day, so I asked to speak to the supervisor. I was put on hold for several minutes and then the same girl returned to the phone and told me that the supervisor told her that as I was told on October 20th, they are still waiting for photos of their insured's vehicle and could not make a decision until those were viewed.
To summarize the above, they already mailed me a denial letter and yet the next day were still telling me that they were awaiting photos and no decision had yet been made. My insurance company had called them and was told the same thing, however, unfortunately, the last time that they called was on the 20th.
Straight out lies is bad faith any way you look at it. But further, why would they be giving me indications that they weren't going to cover my damages, and at the same time telling me that they didn't even have photos of the other vehicle's damages yet? Had they made up their minds in advance that they were not going to pay me? I think so.
I feel like I was raped with my pants on! I will take this to small claims court. My understanding is that I need to exhaust my means to recover from this person. I have filed with his insurance and was turned down. I believe that I must make a request directly to him to pay now by a demand letter. Does anyone know if I must do this or is it stupid writing to him and explaining that I am going to take him to court and allowing him a chance to pay? I don't feel that this guy was even paying attention enough to really know what actually did happen and I don't feel that any story that he tells will make a bit of sense given the damages. This may be beyond anyone's knowledge here, but what are the chances in small claims court of having this guy tell his version of the accident first? That would nail him for sure, as then I would be able to clearly show that what he is saying could not have happened and then show the reality. I wish that I could obtain a record of his statement to the insurance company.
The insurance company has sent me a denial letter in the mail. The letter was dated October 21, 2004. On October 22, 2004, at 4:30 pm and prior to receiving the denial letter on the 23rd, I called the insurance company for a final time for that day. They had not returned the calls for the other 2 messages I left. I was told that my adjuster was gone for the day, so I asked to speak to the supervisor. I was put on hold for several minutes and then the same girl returned to the phone and told me that the supervisor told her that as I was told on October 20th, they are still waiting for photos of their insured's vehicle and could not make a decision until those were viewed.
To summarize the above, they already mailed me a denial letter and yet the next day were still telling me that they were awaiting photos and no decision had yet been made. My insurance company had called them and was told the same thing, however, unfortunately, the last time that they called was on the 20th.
Straight out lies is bad faith any way you look at it. But further, why would they be giving me indications that they weren't going to cover my damages, and at the same time telling me that they didn't even have photos of the other vehicle's damages yet? Had they made up their minds in advance that they were not going to pay me? I think so.
I feel like I was raped with my pants on! I will take this to small claims court. My understanding is that I need to exhaust my means to recover from this person. I have filed with his insurance and was turned down. I believe that I must make a request directly to him to pay now by a demand letter. Does anyone know if I must do this or is it stupid writing to him and explaining that I am going to take him to court and allowing him a chance to pay? I don't feel that this guy was even paying attention enough to really know what actually did happen and I don't feel that any story that he tells will make a bit of sense given the damages. This may be beyond anyone's knowledge here, but what are the chances in small claims court of having this guy tell his version of the accident first? That would nail him for sure, as then I would be able to clearly show that what he is saying could not have happened and then show the reality. I wish that I could obtain a record of his statement to the insurance company.
I
iwasrearended
Guest
and even more
I spoke with the adjuster at the other company and asked her how she could have possibly sent me a denial letter prior to obtaining the photos of her insured's vehicle. She now tells me that they have had photos of that vehicle since the 18th. Now, what we have is them telling me on 2 occasions that they didn't have the photos after the date which she is now telling me she had them, and also, they told my insurance company on the 20th that they were still waiting for the photos. Assuming that she is now telling the truth, and that they don't doctor their records, I have them caught in a lie, not only to me, but also to my insurance company. Is this, or is this not, reason in itself to proceed on to the insurance commission for bad faith handling of this claim.
I called their headquarters and spoke to someone that actually seemed to care, but she then referred me on to another supervisor that told me that he didn't see any reason to change their decision, but he did agree that they should not have lied to me. Some consolation!
Any suggestions as to whether I should proceed with the small claims court prior to going to the insurance commission, or are these 2 entirely different things that can be proceeded with at the same time?
I spoke with the adjuster at the other company and asked her how she could have possibly sent me a denial letter prior to obtaining the photos of her insured's vehicle. She now tells me that they have had photos of that vehicle since the 18th. Now, what we have is them telling me on 2 occasions that they didn't have the photos after the date which she is now telling me she had them, and also, they told my insurance company on the 20th that they were still waiting for the photos. Assuming that she is now telling the truth, and that they don't doctor their records, I have them caught in a lie, not only to me, but also to my insurance company. Is this, or is this not, reason in itself to proceed on to the insurance commission for bad faith handling of this claim.
I called their headquarters and spoke to someone that actually seemed to care, but she then referred me on to another supervisor that told me that he didn't see any reason to change their decision, but he did agree that they should not have lied to me. Some consolation!
Any suggestions as to whether I should proceed with the small claims court prior to going to the insurance commission, or are these 2 entirely different things that can be proceeded with at the same time?
I
iwasrearended
Guest
I may have the answer to part of my question
From reading some of the legalise about bad faith claims, it appears that a claimant may not have the right to file a bad faith claim, as there is no contractual agreement between the claimant and the insurance company. I thinks this sucks, but it was the original reason I posted in the first place...to find this out. I am sure that I can still make my complaint to the Insurance Commission, but now I am not sure what else I can do about their lack of concern for making a correct determination of liability and of course, their lies.
From reading some of the legalise about bad faith claims, it appears that a claimant may not have the right to file a bad faith claim, as there is no contractual agreement between the claimant and the insurance company. I thinks this sucks, but it was the original reason I posted in the first place...to find this out. I am sure that I can still make my complaint to the Insurance Commission, but now I am not sure what else I can do about their lack of concern for making a correct determination of liability and of course, their lies.
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