Oregon: Left turn crash and burn

[Averad]

What is the name of your state? Oregon

I was on vacation at the beach in seaside, OR from were I live in Vancouver, WA. I was stopped in middle divider lane waiting for some friends that were far behind my vehicle. I decided to pull into a gravel parking lot to my left to wait, as sitting in the middle of traffic wasn’t safe. Ahead of me the road turned around a slight bend (a corner) and obstructed the view of oncoming traffic after about 100 feet (roughly, I have to go back and take pictures). I looked to my left and there was a white jeep sitting there. I glanced back to oncoming traffic clear then looked back to the jeep it had started to move and head towards the road. The jeep was clear from were I was to turn so I looked back at oncoming traffic and started my turn. As my vehicle was about 25% into the on coming lane I looked with my eyes at the jeep to still make sure everything was ok and it was. I then looked at the on coming lane and there was a motorcycle there a good 60 feet away from me heading pretty fast (it was a 25mph zone he was over that I assumed 40). He veered towards the front of my car and I slammed on my brakes (no skid my on part as I was going slowly) to let him pass me as that seemed what he intended to do. He (in my opinion) decided that he couldn’t handle this maneuver slammed on his brakes fish tailed and clipped my front license plate. His bike had high handle bars and didn’t seem that he would be able to safely control his bike and should have stooped (which if he would have braked in the beginning I wouldn’t be posting here). His bike fell towards my car and hit pavement he fell away from my car. Minor injury to his left arm and right pointer finger (he refused ambulance transport and service, as did I). I did not claim fault and at the scene the police stated that they were not siting either of us as there unable to determine fault and that’s the job of the insurance.

Well on Monday I received a call from the onsite officer asking me if I was available to come to seaside. I explained I wont be in that area at all as I was on vacation and hardly ever visit there. He then explained that I am being sited for the accident as they reviewed the info and the witnesses and have found me at fault and are issuing (I believe) a class d violation.

The only witness that I saw or heard of was the auto dealership across the street he said that he saw the bike turned away hurt a pop and looked back my rear end was to the auto dealership and there were no other witnesses on site. The police took skid mark measurements etc on the scene.

What do I do I don’t feel that I’m totally at fault as he wasn’t around the corner when I started my turn. I (in my opinion) started a safe turn and followed the law. The motorcycle driver says he wasn’t speeding and that I turned 50ft in front of him and he didn’t have time to brake but when I saw him he hadn’t started braking at all, he seemed to start a maneuver to go around me and the 2nd guess himself.

I also don’t feel I should be sited for the accident its on $96 but I don’t want it on my record.

I don’t think I can’t put up a good case myself but I’m scared that the cost of a Attorney or Lawyer may be very excessive (I might be wrong I have one calling me today). I filed a claim with my insurance so the other driver could submit his claim. When I called his insurance they said he doesn’t want to open a claim and if one is open he wants it under his commercial insurance instead of his personal (is that legal?).

I’m confused let me know if you need anymore info. I just received the call from the help line they said to fight it reschedule the court date a few times and go in person to the trial instead of doing a trail by mail.

I have pictures that I can post there crappy but show some detail as well as a diagram of the scene if you need some help.

[Averad]

Since I have no reply yet I will list my questions and you can receive verification by reading above or asking.

Questions
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1) I feel that I made a safe turn and the actions of the other driver cause the situation to turn unsafe by not controlling his motorcycle, is this a good defense?

2) If the officers state on the scene that they are not the ones to determine guilt or fault and no ticket will be issued as they cannot determine who is the fault party, as that is the insurance’s job and they call a week later and tell me they are issuing a ticket can I fight it because of the officers original statement?

3) Should I seek representation to fight this ticket or in traffic court is it better to represent yourself?

4) In traffic court if I represent myself and the officer shows and in his testimony states Mr.Someone stated that "..." can I object to him admitting that information as hearsay unless the person who stated the fact is present?

I hove more questions but I will wait for the answers to these questions

[CdwJava]

The first thing to remember is that the fault assigned by law enforcement will not necessarily be the fault that will be decided by insurance companies and/or a court. We (in law enforcement) have different guidelines for fault. Generally, as a matter of fault for the collision as determined by law enforcement, the person making the left turn would likely be at fault. However, there could be associated factors such as the distance to the turn, the speed of the other vehicle, etc. But since one person has to be assigned fault (if fault is to be assigned) we generally assign it to the one making the left had turning movement.

""""1) I feel that I made a safe turn and the actions of the other driver cause the situation to turn unsafe by not controlling his motorcycle, is this a good defense?"

It might be. But it also depends on where you are making the argument - criminal or civil court.

""""2) If the officers state on the scene that they are not the ones to determine guilt or fault and no ticket will be issued as they cannot determine who is the fault party, as that is the insurance’s job and they call a week later and tell me they are issuing a ticket can I fight it because of the officers original statement?"

No. Most collisions are later reviewed and after obtaining the relevant information a decision as to fault is made - often by more qualified parties. In CA not every officer can issue a citation for a Primary Collision Factor, so the citation cannot be issued until the report is reviewed by an officer trained in collision investigation. I imagine its similar in OR.

The officer's opinion at the scene is irrelevant to the situation you now face. You can bring the matter up in court and ask the officer why he changed his mind, but chances are he will have a good reason.

""""3) Should I seek representation to fight this ticket or in traffic court is it better to represent yourself?"

I don't think anyone can really answer that without knowing the charge you face or the possible sentence. Personally, if the other driver were injured, you might want to prevail in a criminal case because it might mitigate the civil case later on ... if there will be one. So you might consider consulting an attorney to see what your options are.

""""4) In traffic court if I represent myself and the officer shows and in his testimony states Mr.Someone stated that "..." can I object to him admitting that information as hearsay unless the person who stated the fact is present?"

You can object to the statement as hearsay ... but, the judge might still admit it as part of the reason the officer formed the opinion you were in the wrong. Having never come across that situation, and not being in OR, I can't say how a judge might rule. Though my guess would be that the hearsay statement might not be allowed in, but, the officer's conclusions based upon that statement probably would be.

Carl

[Averad]

Thanks alot Carl. I haven’t received the ticket yet but once I do I will be contacting a attorney as I don’t feel it was my fault the accident occurred (as he lost control).

In the end everything could have been worse if I’m found at fault I’m going to accept it I just hope that I can show that I acted in a safe and reasonable manner in the situation I was presented.

Question
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1) When asking for right of discovery of materials do I have to pay the police or whoever to produce the materials, such as digital pictures taken officers’ notes and police report?

2) I was advised by the help line advertised here to try and file for multiple continuances of my trial (if and when I file not guilty), is this a common practice to hope the officer forgets or doesn’t show? Wouldn’t this upset the court or judge if they see I filed 3 times for a continuance? The person I spoke with said this is a common practice and usually works depending on how long you can drag it on. I felt this is kinda dishonest.

3) Quote: Though my guess would be that the hearsay statement might not be allowed in, but the officer's conclusions based upon that statement probably would be.

Q: If the statement is removed how could an assumption be admitted to the trail based on something that is hear say and not admissible (if its not admissible)? (Question is geared at a legal representative if one is reading this)

4) Do I have a snowballs chance in hell? (be honest)

5) When you plead not guilty your trail is still heard in traffic court correct? Can you even object in traffic court, I don’t want to be Perry Mason but I want to avoid getting an attorney if possible (though I’m open to the idea and researching the cost and availability)

[Meursault]

All of this over $96?

Geeez. I guess it's going to make your insurance go up.

Oh wait, it's going up ANYWAY!

[CdwJava]

""""1) When asking for right of discovery of materials do I have to pay the police or whoever to produce the materials, such as digital pictures taken officers’ notes and police report?"

Discovery can be a tricky thing. And yes, you may very well have to pay for those items. This is done through the court via a Discovery motion or subpoeana and you will likely have to contact the court to find out how to do it yourself. If not done properly, the agencies involved would be under no obligation to provide the information.

An attorney would now how to do it.

"""" 2) I was advised by the help line advertised here to try and file for multiple continuances of my trial (if and when I file not guilty), is this a common practice to hope the officer forgets or doesn’t show? Wouldn’t this upset the court or judge if they see I filed 3 times for a continuance? The person I spoke with said this is a common practice and usually works depending on how long you can drag it on. I felt this is kinda dishonest."

It really depends on the jurisdiction. I suppose it can work. But it can also piss a lot of people off - including the judge - if you keep making up lame excuses why you can't be there.

I don't think its "commpn practice", but some people do. Besides, you aren't likely going to get a motion for a continuance if you are there. So you can't wait to see if the officer is going to show before you do it - it has to be made before hand. And remember, the officer or the court can play the same game back at you.

I would think its best to just get on with it.

Personally, I like it when people do that! I get my court minimum hours for overtime at time-and-a-half, and get to go home right away!

"""" 3) Do I have a snowballs chance in hell?"

Maybe. But, only a lawyer licensed to practice in your area who is experienced with your local traffic court system would be able to assess that effectively. I would think it's worth a chance - depending on what you are cited for. If its for an unsafe left turn, you might stand a chance to beat it if the distances and visibility is what you say and you can show it.

Carl

[Averad]

Carl

I get my court minimum hours for overtime at time-and-a-half, and get to go home right away!

Do you get the same pay if you have to have a trial by mail (trial by affidavit?) or do you not write the letter and just show up at the trial and the defendants statement is read and you present your case in person?

(Note to the guy who thinks $96 is a small fine. Was there any reason to post or you just trying to get your post count up to feel special? Its not the amount of the ticket its the fact I do not feel I caused the accident as I acted quickly and attempted to make a safe and passable situation for the other driver, he lost control and in effect made the situation unsafe for both parties)

Added these questions above after the reply from carl adding here:
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3) Quote: Though my guess would be that the hearsay statement might not be allowed in, but the officer's conclusions based upon that statement probably would be.

Q: If the statement is removed how could an assumption be admitted to the trail based on something that is hear say and not admissible (if its not admissible)? (Question is geared at a legal representative if one is reading this)

5) When you plead not guilty your trail is still heard in traffic court correct? Can you even object in traffic court, I don’t want to be Perry Mason but I want to avoid getting an attorney if possible (though I’m open to the idea and researching the cost and availability)

[CdwJava]

""""Do you get the same pay if you have to have a trial by mail (trial by affidavit?) or do you not write the letter and just show up at the trial and the defendants statement is read and you present your case in person?"

Trial by affidavit would be less money for me as I would write my affidavit during my normal hours. Here, there is no appearance with that option. But, a response from the officer would almost be guaranteed, AND, there would be no cross examination. If the officer can wriete even halfway decently, he can probably articulate all the elements necessary to make his case without you being able to effectively counter them.

As for the other questions, I believe you CAN object to a hearsay statement, but the officer's opinion may still be valid even if the statement is inadmissable. It depends on what else he has to go on. And usually with crashes its physical evidence. And in your case, making a left turn is likely a prima facie case of an unsafe turn ... with possible mitigation due to the speed of the other driver and/or visibility to the turn in the road.

And I know I can't speak as to what court traffic matters are heard in for OR. On CA they would be heard in traffic court.

Carl

[Averad]

Thanks a bunch Carl for your answers Ill be down in Cali in September watch out for my Svt focus, Ill be the one crawling in the slow lane so I don’t get any more tickets.

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I will be going back to the town to collect pictures sight of view pictures from were the one witness said he saw the bike as well as measurements. My data may be a bit skewed but hopefully it will show with-in a few feet that with the speed the other driver was going I reacted in the only safe and reasonable way.

I will also be contacting a traffic attorney in my area

[Averad]

I though of another question

Question
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The police officer on the phone stated that if I would have not been worrying about our friends behind me and the car in the parking lot and making the turn I would have been in a correct state of mind. Can police make that determination? I know police receive extensive training but how can a officer determine what’s going through my head at the time of the accident. When i was turning only 2 things were on my mind 1) traffic is clear don’t go to fast its a gravel parking lot and 2) Hopefully that jeep isn’t turning this way.

I glanced at the jeep and took care of number 2.The officer kind of made it seem like the determination was come by what they believed I was thinking.

[CdwJava]

That was his opinion. It will ultimately have no real bearing on the criminal aspect of the case at hand anyway.

Carl