Credit and Privacy

What is the name of your state? Virginia (DC area)

Every credit card form I've seen requests my SSN#. Some of them have the forboding print that entering an invalid number is illegal.
My questions --
1. are credit (not-bank) companies required to ask for SSN#s?

2. What laws demand that I truthfully answer?

3. How do credit card companies manage to get information on validity of SSN# information -- is there a lookup process that any citizen can do, or are these companies more equal than others?

4. Assuming that I'd like to purchase products without tying these products to my bank account, in what manner can I *legally* do this?

5. (I continually hear of people opening bank accounts, getting credit cards and ruining credit on others identities -- I just would rather avoid the bad karma and troublesome law enforcement agencies. I've heard that it was once possible to "spoof" credit reporting agencies by filling out the "college credit card" applications and starting a new credit record -- while it seems unlikely that this would result in trouble (unless the random number matches someone elses #) is it strictly speaking LEGAL?

Final rambling (not a question)
I realize that any card obtained in this manner would have outrageous rates since I can't link it to a bank account (since I am aware that there are laws requiring a SSN# for those), and I wouldn't care if it was secured..

[Ladynred]

1 - Are they required ? I don't know, but without out a valid SSN they can't check your credit report and neither could they report your record with them to the Credit Bureaus.

2 - Using an SSN that is NOT yours is considered FRAUD, and its federal.

3 - Unfortunately, they don't. If you give them a bad SSN, they will use THAT number and get it all wrong, possibly dinging someone else with YOUR info. CRA's are bad about having bad SSN information as well.

4 - Buy products without tying them to your bank account ? Unless you use a debit card, how would that happen directly anyway ? I'm not sure I understand the question.

5 - "starting a new credit record" IS going to result in trouble at some point. It is known as file segregation, and as such, fraud, and a federal crime !!! Even if you create a 'new file' at some point the chances are pretty good that info from your 'old' file and your new file are going to cross and then all the info from the old will turn up on your 'new' file, so there goes your 'clean, new' file. This is a BAD idea all around !!

We can all understand your concerns about privacy, but messing with your SSN or trying to pull a fast one with a fake SSN is a fool's task, and bears a considerable risk. We all have to be diligent with our personal information with rampant ID theft, but you're going to have to live with the fact that, until new legislation is passed that prohibits the use of an SSN as our all-around personal ID number for everything they can think of, that number is going to be required and demanded of you for everything. Until the gov't issues all of us national ID numbers.. and believe me, its coming, the SSN will be used in that way and ID theft and fraud based on that all-too-public number will continue to rise.

Ladynred,
I thank you for your prompt response. I'd like to talk further and hope that I am not unduely wasting your time.

1. If it is JUST for the credit bureaus, then why do *SECURED* cards still have the same requirement?

2. I was afraid of that, but I wasn't sure. I had THOUGHT that to get a fraud conviction, there was the need to prove INTENT to defraud. Is merely denying the credit agency valid information fraud? So if I do NOT defraud the credit companies, would this still be illegal?

3. So what does happen if someone with totally different information uses the same SSN# as someone else. How do the Credit Reporting Agencies handle this -- flagging both accounts? Making two seperate records and treating them as distinct (but a lookup by SSN# returns both)? Or by putting the transactions from one on another?
Still, good to know that they can't check any more than I can.. they don't get (for example) birth records with SSN#s, do they? A side thought was setting up credit for every brat in my extended family...


4. Since both are referenced by the same key, any product that I buy with a credit card (and no cash payments online) is linked to me. I consider this to be a terrible thing. I want to be able to buy "Catcher in the Rye" and not have an interview.

5. I wasn't aware of this term. Under what circumstances would the card issuer be able to link the two files together? Common address (*grumble* at laws requring PMB designations on Post Office Boxes)? Or checking accounts used to pay the balance?

It grates on me that legislation IS there that "protects" the SSN, but companies get around it. Further, knowing that a group of companies that would do anything for money have so much information about me puts me in a sour mode. My hope is that within the letter of the law there are things that will irritate them and pollute their databases....

[Ladynred]

1 - I'm not 100% sure, but since a secured card is still reported to the CRA's, they're still going to want the number, and, of course, the banks demand a SSN as well. Drives me crazy when my bank or AMEX asks for some part of my SSN for 'identification'...grrrrr..


2 - Denying them information wouldn't be fraud, but denying them that information is only going to result in a refusal to give you credit..secured or unsecured. The problem with SSN's is that there are so many of them issued, that even if you change your number by 1 digit, the odds are pretty good that number belongs to someone else, and YOUR credit would show up on their reports. I don't know how far they push intent with SSN fraud, but if you knowing give them a 'wrong' number, its going to be seen as fraud.

3 - A woman just won a $5.3M lawsuit agains Trans-Union because they combined her credit with that of a woman whose SSN was ONE digit different from her own. TU refused to correct the error and the woman fought with them for SIX years.. she finally won, but what she had to go thru to do it was ridiculous, she even traveled hundreds of miles to track down the other woman personally ! The CRA's will combine information and its up to the consumer to get it fixed, but the CRA's will fight with you the entire way most of the time !!

No, a creditor can't get birth information from your SSN. The number itself tells someone where and approximately when the number was issued though.. but ya gotta know 'the code' to it, and its not hard to find that either !


4 - Unfortunately, one way or another our bank info and other personal info is going to be linked with you thru purchases, unless you ONLY deal in cash.. not much any of us can do about the technology and the 'links' involved at this point. Basically, we've let the genie out of the bottle ourselves thru so many avenues, that now there's no putting him back in. As far as I know, the ONLY way to be 'untraceable' is to use only cash.

5 - Yes.. to all. Anything that is common to both numbers could, at some point, end up linking the new numbers and the files.

[bigun]

Creditors can access the SS database to see if it is a valid number. Last year, I opened a brokerage account over the telephone and gave a sales assistant my ssn#. Either she or I transposed 2 digits and I got a letter saying the account couldn't be opened because my name didn't correspond to a valid ssn. We looked at the paperwork and saw what had happened. We corrected the ssn and the account was opened.

[Ladynred]

Well, then if that's do-able, why is it that so many errors occur with SSN's on accounts, including our credit reports. If they CAN validate our numbers, why are the not REQUIRED to do so ?? Probably some answer like 'it takes too much time or money', right ???

[bigun]

With credit reports, I think it is the shear volume of information handled coupled with the CRA's not making the investment in technologhy to handle the load. I understand in one case involving TU that an issue was the training and wage scale of the CSR's that handle so much of the data. They were being paid on ave. something like $7/hr. and for the most part had no education beyond the high school level.

I would assume that banks and cc companies would do so but, the problem arises when someone steals both a name and the corresponding SSN. Then, it could take months or years before the person victimized would discover the problem.

[bigun]

Here's a site that may be of interest if you're trying to pull a scam. [url]www.teletrack.com.[/url] Click on consumer finance and you'll see about accessing ss databases.

Teletrack is interesting. Thank you for the link. Tell me if I am mistaken, but it seems that these services ONLY work if SOMEONE feeds them the information -- IS there a list of SSN#s issued each month/year that they can use to determine valid or invalid ones?

As far as "intent" -- if I use ANY SSN#, is it fraud if I do not (a) use the real information of the person whose SSN# I've used? (although the checking of something like teletrack will flag this as a "redundant" entry?) (b) do not defraud any merchants/banks as a result? I'm having a hard time finding the actual "fraud" laws which are used in this case -- can someone point me to the actual laws??

While I understand that Pandora's box of databases can't be closed, in my worldview the little angel of hope would be leveraging their power against them by reducing the value of their information. As long as their information is USEFUL they will continue to accumulate it. When their information costs more to maintain (verify SSNs, filter out the Donald Quack, Don Duck, Roger Wabbit false names, so forth) then everyone else wins.

bigun, as far as your story, I wonder if the actual error was that the SSN was "invalid" (ie, not yet issued or the first 3 digits ddidn't correspond to a state) or "incorrect" (already in their database only with a different name & address)? And of course, SSN#s of the deceased are flagged as such, and as more people die off the chances of hitting a "dead listed" SSN are higher.