Please help...ASAP....please

What is the name of your state? MA

Fraud...Please help
I want to apologize upfront for posting this in a few places, however, I am not sure where exactly this belongs.

Let me start at the beginning, my fiancee purchased an engagement ring for $13,000. 10,000.00 of it was from his credit cards. The other $3,000.00 was from the company selling him the ring. We had problems with the ring (one of the bagettes was damaged), so we were going to send it back. My fiance then proceeded to send an email to the $3000.00 creditor stating that the ring had been returned (when, it had not). Months later, my fiance decided to file bankruptcy. This was immediately after getting served court papers from the $3000.00 creditor stating that my fiancee was being sued for the $3000.00 amount and for fraud. Prior to the bankrupcy hearing we attempted to make a deal with the creditor, stating that we would pay $150.00 a month, including interest. This offer was declined. The creditor now states that he was the ring back, so he can appraise and sell it, and then pay itself and the other creditors back who were similarly defrauded. The bankrupcy has cleared, but now we have this looming over our heads. I do not want to give up the ring. It now has sentimental value that exceeds its monetary value.

Please help me with this.....

P.S. I am in Massachusetts.

Thanks,

Jessica

[Ladynred]

Why were they claiming fraud ? If they do NOT have the ring, how can they now claim that they do ? Did your fiance challenge that ? You say the bankruptcy has 'cleared', do you mean it has been discharged ??

Did he include this creditor in his bankruptcy and if not, why not ?
If he didn't, then he may have made a huge mistake. Has he been to court for the lawsuit ? If not, is there now a judgment against him ?

If he has NOT been to court over the lawsuit yet, there may still be a chance to negotiate either a settlement or a payment plan.

They are claiming fraud, because my fiance stated that he had returned the ring, when he had not.

I dont know whether or not the bankrupcy has been discharged, how long after the creditors meeting would you know? And I'm not sure if he added this creditor, although, it would make sense. Do you know the reasons why certain creditors wouldnt be added.

I would assume, although I am not sure, that the papers served to him regarding a lawsuit, prior to the bankruptcy are still valid, therefore, yes, he does has a lawsuit against him.

I think his bankruptcy attorney screwed him. I had advised him to tell the creditor (who showed up at the creditors meeting), that he and I were no longer together, so that they couldnt ask for the ring back, but she advised him not to.

Also, she neglected to tell him until the day of the creditors meeting that the creditor wouldnt accept the payment plan (he declined it 4 days prior to the meeting).

[bigun]

How on earth can you say his bk attroney screwed him by advising him not to lie? Make life easy. Return the ring.

Return a $13,000.00 ring to satisfy a $3,000.00 debt????? I cant believe that that would be the right thing to do. It just doesnt make sense......

[Ladynred]

Discharge *usually* is granted 60 days after the creditors meeting. The 60 days is for objections to his bk to be entered by creditors. If none object in that 60 days, on day 61 discharge is granted (more or less).

There are no reasons I can think of that a creditor would NOT be added to a creditor matrix since you are REQUIRED to list ALL creditors, secured and unsecured. Its possible this ring is considered secured, but it still should have been included in the paperwork. Did the ring people just demand the ring back or did they say anything about a reaffirmation ?

If his lawyer screwed up, it would be in NOT including this creditor in the paperwork, be it secured or unsecured. Telling him NOT to lie was the right thing to do. He'd better find out why the creditor was not included if they weren't, and ask NOW.

*******
on second thought, they MUST have been included, otherwise they would not have been at the 341 meeting... so, what DID they want at the meeting ?

[bigun]

What would happen is return the ring to the trustee who would sell it and pay the proceeds to all of the creditors {after the secured creditor got his $3K}. Remember, someone advanced him $10K as well.
It's crap like this that will eventually get bk laws tighened up to a degree that people who really need bk relief will find in very dificult.

No, the BK has not been discharged yet. Yes, the Creditor was included in the BK. At the 341 meeting, they asked questions like, “Are you still engaged”, “Do you have the ring”, “Why did you state that the ring had been returned”, etc. He was the only creditor to show up at the meeting.

In one of the letters the creditor sent to our attorney, he states “I have discussed your offer with my client and they have declined it as stated, but extended the following counteroffer. On the amount of $3000.00, your client will pay $150.00 per month at an interest rate of 8.00%, and will not be responsible for costs or legal fees.” He then reneged this offer two days after the letter. Also, the letter is not dated.

The next letter states “The truth of the matter is that your client lied about having returned the diamond ring, and may very well face felony criminal charges because of it. My client will accept the ring back, appraise and sell it, and then pay itself and the other creditors back who were similarly defrauded.”

Also, his first letter mentions removing him as a creditor in the BK.

My next question is, Should I contact the creditors attorney and beg that he take some sort of payment plan??? At this point, our BK attorney really cant do anything more, she did was she was supposed to.

Thanks....

BIGUN,

I understand your point, but I dont think you understand mine. This ring was purchased almost a year before my fiancee went into bankruptcy, he did not purposely attempt to purchase something so that he wouldnt have to pay for it. I am all for a payment plan of some sort with this creditor, however, returning the ring is not an option I would like to see happen. This ring has sentimental value, and we are getting married in 6 months. I would hate to walk down the aisle without it.....

I'm sorry if you have a problem with my questions. I suggest not answering them....

[bigun]

I have no problem with your question. I'm not trying to say that your finacee should not file bk.
I am trying to say that fraud in a Federal Court proceeding is a dangerous game with one heck of a lot of downside. They can petition the trustee to throw out the entire bk and turn loose all of the wolves again. Worse case, the trustee gets angry and recommends criminal prosectution.

[Ladynred]

The fraud issue is the nasty fly in the ointment here that could cause huge trouble, as Bigun stated.

If your fiance has all his other debts discharged, can he afford to pay $300 a month ? Has his lawyer tried anything like proposing a reaffirmation at a higher payment rate ? You need to find a way to appease this creditor with a better payment offer and avoid pissing off the Trustee and have him/her take your ring. I wouldn't want my engagment ring taken away either, I can't blame you there, but someone had better come up with an equitable agreement asap.

I spoke with the creditors attorney today and he stated that he can no longer make a deal, because he already filed a petition with the BK trustee. He said I should call the Trustee regarding the ring. Should I?

I want to explain that I am willing to pay anything a month in order to keep the ring. If its in the Trustees hands now, what will happen????

Please help???

[Ladynred]

The Trustee can allow you to keep and pay some accounts, reaffirmations are done all the time. Have you asked his attorney about offering a reaffirmation ? The Trustee may agree to something like that, or he/she could just as easily demand that you surrender the ring to him/her to sell and distribute the funds to his creditors. The thing is, the ring is over a year old, and there IS depreciation involved as well as the quick-sale value. It may not bring enough for the Trustee to bother with. Unfortunately, one way or the other, you're going to have to deal with the Trustee.

LadynRed, Thanks for all your help.....

Should I contact the Trustee, or should I get our BK attorney to do so.....

The only thing about asking our attorney to do it is that she takes forever to get back to us, and she hasnt had any luck with the other attorney.

Also, reaffirmation? what exactly does that mean???

Thanks.

jessica

[bigun]

I would suggest your fiance retain a lawyer. The fact that the creditor has filed a petition with the trustee means they have accused him of committing bk fraud and wish to have the entire case dismissed. The trustee also has the option of refering the matter to Federal prosectures.
I wouldn't initiate anything with the trustee unless I had legal counsel.