Plumber suing me, what are my chances?

[Mel72]

What is the name of your state (only U.S. law)? MA

I hired a licensed plumbing co. to rough in new plumbing and install new fixtures (provided by me) in my remodeled bathroom. After the owner visited he emailed me a quote of $2175 (no contract or itemizing, just "the job will cost $2175.") He sent his employee to do the rough-in, then after the floor was laid and walls were painted, the same employee came back to install the bathtub, sink, and toilet. Several days later we received the bill, which was $2345 (they added on 2 hours of labor b/c the supply co. I was using sent some incorrect parts, so the plumber had had to come back for an extra visit.) Around when we got the bill we noticed the sink was leaking. The same plumber (not the owner) came and fiddled quickly with the sink and said all set, it's fixed. The next day it was still leaking. It was the day before TG and when I emailed to owner to tell him it was still leaking he said he couldn't do anything until his plumber returned on Friday. We were having 14 ppl at our house for TG and we decided to try and fix it ourselves, since we needed it fixed right away.

My BF took apart the whole thing and discovered that a very basic error in measuring a pipe had been made. It was cut about an inch and a half too short and leaked from both ends. All the guy did when he came back was to tighten it at one end, which made the leak from the other end worse. We were horrified. This seemed like a mistake that a licensed plumber should not have made at all, never mind failed to correct when he came to fix it. My BF went out and bought a longer pipe, put the plumbing back together and sealed it well and we have had no leaks since.

We put together a detailed emailed explaining what we had found and how we fixed it (with photos) and sent it to the owner, asking him to take $500 off the bill of $2345, since his guy had installed the sink incorrectly and failed to fix it and we had to do it ourselves. He replied that the faucet we were using was cheap and that was why it leaked, and he would take $85 off the bill as long as we paid by the end of the week. We sent him a check for $1845 (total minus 500.) We felt completely justified in this and included a note explaining that they had BOTCHED the sink completely and we were not going to pay for that portion of the bill.

The plumber emailed me this AM stating he will file in small claims court against us if we do not pay him the $500 by Fri. I don't know if he really will or if he is just strong-arming me. All I know is that I am NOT paying this guy for work that was done WRONG. The pipe was cut wrong (we sent him a photo) and our faucet cost $300 and was perfectly adequate...you could put in a diamond-encrusted solid gold faucet and if the pipes underneath it are measured incorrectly it's going to leak!

We are not paying this guy another cent. We never had a contract or signed anything (which makes me think he didn't even pull a permit for our project.) All we had was his email with the original quote. Opinions, please?? Thanks!!

 

[Zigner]

Why do you think that such a simple, basic repair is worth $500? I think the offer of an $85 discount was more than fair.

 

[Mel72]

If we had hired someone else to come and fix it, then sure the repair itself might've only cost $85. But the entire bill is for installing a tub, toilet, and sink and the sink was done all wrong...I don't feel that I should have to pay for that portion of the job.

 

[Zigner]

If we had hired someone else to come and fix it, then sure the repair itself might've only cost $85. But the entire bill is for installing a tub, toilet, and sink and the sink was done all wrong...I don't feel that I should have to pay for that portion of the job.

The sink was not done all wrong - a plastic pipe was cut short and easily replaced. You even acknowledge that a professional would likely have only cost $85.

 

[racer72]

.I don't feel that I should have to pay for that portion of the job.

That's not your choice when you have a valid contract, only a judge can make that determination after hearing the facts. You are doing this back a$$wards.

 

[Mel72]

I never saw or signed a contract. He emailed me a quote and that was it.

It wasn't a plastic pipe. There were 2 leaks underneath the sink--it was leaking from where the (metal) threaded extension tube screws into the faucet pop-up junction (top), and also leaking from where the threaded extension tube goes into the p-trap elbow unit (bottom). It wasn't even screwed in all the way at the top and there was no teflon tape or plumber's putty there. And this was AFTER he had come out again specifically to address the leak. All he did at that time was tighten the pipe and leave, he was rushed and impatient and put a bandaid on the problem instead of actually diagnosing and correcting it.

It concerns me that a professional would make a mistake like that in the first place. That seems amateurish at best. To then come and "fix" it, leaving us with the exact same problem that we called about, and not be willing to give us a meaningful discount, is not acceptable. If he had actually fixed it, I'd be paying the entire bill without argument. But he did it wrong, then he failed to fix it, leaving us in the lurch and we fixed it ourselves! Why would I then pay them for hooking up the sink, when they did it wrong and we had to do it to get it right?

Also for him to say that the faucet was of inferior quality and that was causing the leak is just ridiculous. He suggested that we swap it out for a better product. Meaning, he wanted us to purchase an even more expensive faucet, then they'd come and install it, and then we'd have an extra faucet and a still-leaky sink b/c the original, real problem would have remained unaddressed.

I am willing to negotiate the $500, perhaps that's too much to ask for but I am not willing to settle for an $85 discount on a $2345 bill, would you?

 

[Zigner]

I never saw or signed a contract. He emailed me a quote and that was it.

It wasn't a plastic pipe. There were 2 leaks underneath the sink--it was leaking from where the (metal) threaded extension tube screws into the faucet pop-up junction (top), and also leaking from where the threaded extension tube goes into the p-trap elbow unit (bottom). It wasn't even screwed in all the way at the top and there was no teflon tape or plumber's putty there. And this was AFTER he had come out again specifically to address the leak. All he did at that time was tighten the pipe and leave, he was rushed and impatient and put a bandaid on the problem instead of actually diagnosing and correcting it.

It concerns me that a professional would make a mistake like that in the first place. That seems amateurish at best. To then come and "fix" it, leaving us with the exact same problem that we called about, and not be willing to give us a meaningful discount, is not acceptable. If he had actually fixed it, I'd be paying the entire bill without argument. But he did it wrong, then he failed to fix it, leaving us in the lurch and we fixed it ourselves! Why would I then pay them for hooking up the sink, when they did it wrong and we had to do it to get it right?

Also for him to say that the faucet was of inferior quality and that was causing the leak is just ridiculous. He suggested that we swap it out for a better product. Meaning, he wanted us to purchase an even more expensive faucet, then they'd come and install it, and then we'd have an extra faucet and a still-leaky sink b/c the original, real problem would have remained unaddressed.

I am willing to negotiate the $500, perhaps that's too much to ask for but I am not willing to settle for an $85 discount on a $2345 bill, would you?

If it only cost a few dollars to fix, yeah, I would. Especially if it meant I'd be able to avoid losing in court.

 

[LeeHarveyBlotto]

What is the name of your state (only U.S. law)? MA



We are not paying this guy another cent.

Sure you are, you're just delaying the inevitable on that.

How much did the BF spend in parts, and how long did it take him to discover and fix the problem?

 

[PaulMass]

If this clown actually filed a lawsuit, find a lawyer.

If he doesn't settle your counterclaim, please post back with the docket number. I love hearing judges tear apart contractors trying to enforce illegal contracts.

 

[Mel72]

more detail

I am going to supply more details since most of the replies above are on the plumber's side...first of all, in response to those of you who cite having a valid contract as a reason why I would not win this in court: there was never any contract! I said that in my OP. We do not have a contract. I don't think an email stating "the job will cost $2175" is considered a "valid contract."

Please take the following into consideration:

1. The owner came to my house, looked at our project, and said it would cost about $1200. He later then emailed me stating it would cost $2175.
2. The owner never came to our house again, all the work was done by a much younger employee who, while seeming like a nice enough guy, was rushed and worked very quickly to the point where I was concerned he might not be very thorough.
3. The final bill was $2345. No materials or time frame etc listed, just a final price without explanation. I asked for an itemized bill. They said they do not itemize quoted work but did break it down to: "Work done as quoted: $2175. Extra 2 hours of labor due to missing parts: $170." I was OK with the extra charge b/c our supplier forgot to include some parts and the plumber had to stop work and return later when the parts arrived, so I knew there'd be a charge for that.
4. After I got the bill I realized the sink was leaking in back. Also we were having a small drip from the pipe underneath the clawfoot tub drain. Plumber came back to fix it. He was here maybe 20 minutes, tightened up some stuff and left. Absolutely NO change in the leaking the next day, which was the day before Thanksgiving. Owner says it leaks b/c your faucet is of poor quality, you need to swap it for a better one, and we can't come back until next week. My BF spent approx 6 hours researching, diagnosing, and fixing the problem himself, which turned out to be that the sink pipe had been grossly undermeasured.
5. Owner says he will give us $85 off the bill, does not acknowledge what the actual problem was even though we sent him a lengthy explanation and photos, and says if we don't pay in full by Fri he will take us to SCC (this is after I sent him $1845, he has never come here himself to inspect any of the work done by his employee.)
6. On top of all this our toilet is visibly unlevel, it does not rock but you can see that it's tilted and you can feel it when you sit on it. We knew our floor was not level, it's an old house, but from what I understand the plumber should have put shims under the toilet to make sure it was level.

All in all we feel that our project was done by someone who was rushing through it and who maybe wasn't as experienced as we had hoped. The mistake he made with the sink was just ridiculous--yeah of course people make mistakes and I am not a mean person--but geez, when you hire a professional you expect professional results! That is a no-brainer. My BF's hourly rate for his graphic design work is $90, so even if we use the plumber's hourly rate of $85 my BF still put about $510 worth of work into fixing their mistake. That is why we asked for $500 off (the cost of the pipe was not much, maybe $12.) Furthermore, since they are unwilling to provide me with an itemized bill how am I supposed to know what I am paying for? The plumber spent maybe 20 hours tops on the entire project (and that is being very generous.) $85x20=$1700. There is no way they spent $475 on supplies. We provided almost everything down the the faucet supply lines and the bathtub drain, they provided only a little pipe for the tub and the pipe for the sink (which was what ended up being the biggest problem.) So where is the $2175 coming from and why can't they break that down for me? I feel that I am being overcharged for what turned out to be a shoddy installation and I am not sure why I am getting such negative responses here.

Anyways--I plan to ask the owner again for an itemized bill and I am willing to negotiate a little but an $85 discount is not "more than fair," it is absurd given the time and stress their mistake has cost us.

Edited: I forgot to add that the hot water wasn't running full strength after he hooked up the sink and when I got on my hands and knees and looked under the pedestal sink, I could see the the supply line to the tap was kinked. This was added to the list of items he was supposed to fix when he came back, and he didn't fix that either. Plus the escutcheon (sp?) he put on the end of the sink pipe where it goes into the wall is too small so that there's like 3 inches of pipe, then a random escucheon/collar thing, then more pipe. This is all completely visible b/c it's an open pedestal sink. Does this last mistake really matter? No, but it looks dumb and I get mad every time see it!

 

[Ohiogal]

I hope you are sued. Because quite frankly, you will lose.

 

[Just Blue]

I am going to supply more details since most of the replies above are on the plumber's side...first of all, in response to those of you who cite having a valid contract as a reason why I would not win this in court: there was never any contract! I said that in my OP. We do not have a contract. I don't think an email stating "the job will cost $2175" is considered a "valid contract."

Please take the following into consideration:

1. The owner came to my house, looked at our project, and said it would cost about $1200. He later then emailed me stating it would cost $2175.
2. The owner never came to our house again, all the work was done by a much younger employee who, while seeming like a nice enough guy, was rushed and worked very quickly to the point where I was concerned he might not be very thorough.
3. The final bill was $2345. No materials or time frame etc listed, just a final price without explanation. I asked for an itemized bill. They said they do not itemize quoted work but did break it down to: "Work done as quoted: $2175. Extra 2 hours of labor due to missing parts: $170." I was OK with the extra charge b/c our supplier forgot to include some parts and the plumber had to stop work and return later when the parts arrived, so I knew there'd be a charge for that.
4. After I got the bill I realized the sink was leaking in back. Also we were having a small drip from the pipe underneath the clawfoot tub drain. Plumber came back to fix it. He was here maybe 20 minutes, tightened up some stuff and left. Absolutely NO change in the leaking the next day, which was the day before Thanksgiving. Owner says it leaks b/c your faucet is of poor quality, you need to swap it for a better one, and we can't come back until next week. My BF spent approx 6 hours researching, diagnosing, and fixing the problem himself, which turned out to be that the sink pipe had been grossly undermeasured.
5. Owner says he will give us $85 off the bill, does not acknowledge what the actual problem was even though we sent him a lengthy explanation and photos, and says if we don't pay in full by Fri he will take us to SCC (this is after I sent him $1845, he has never come here himself to inspect any of the work done by his employee.)
6. On top of all this our toilet is visibly unlevel, it does not rock but you can see that it's tilted and you can feel it when you sit on it. We knew our floor was not level, it's an old house, but from what I understand the plumber should have put shims under the toilet to make sure it was level.

All in all we feel that our project was done by someone who was rushing through it and who maybe wasn't as experienced as we had hoped. The mistake he made with the sink was just ridiculous--yeah of course people make mistakes and I am not a mean person--but geez, when you hire a professional you expect professional results! That is a no-brainer. My BF's hourly rate for his graphic design work is $90, so even if we use the plumber's hourly rate of $85 my BF still put about $510 worth of work into fixing their mistake. That is why we asked for $500 off (the cost of the pipe was not much, maybe $12.) Furthermore, since they are unwilling to provide me with an itemized bill how am I supposed to know what I am paying for? The plumber spent maybe 20 hours tops on the entire project (and that is being very generous.) $85x20=$1700. There is no way they spent $475 on supplies. We provided almost everything down the the faucet supply lines and the bathtub drain, they provided only a little pipe for the tub and the pipe for the sink (which was what ended up being the biggest problem.) So where is the $2175 coming from and why can't they break that down for me? I feel that I am being overcharged for what turned out to be a shoddy installation and I am not sure why I am getting such negative responses here.

Anyways--I plan to ask the owner again for an itemized bill and I am willing to negotiate a little but an $85 discount is not "more than fair," it is absurd given the time and stress their mistake has cost us.

Edited: I forgot to add that the hot water wasn't running full strength after he hooked up the sink and when I got on my hands and knees and looked under the pedestal sink, I could see the the supply line to the tap was kinked. This was added to the list of items he was supposed to fix when he came back, and he didn't fix that either. Plus the escutcheon (sp?) he put on the end of the sink pipe where it goes into the wall is too small so that there's like 3 inches of pipe, then a random escucheon/collar thing, then more pipe. This is all completely visible b/c it's an open pedestal sink. Does this last mistake really matter? No, but it looks dumb and I get mad every time see it!

Any plumber that I or my family have done business with has involved a written contract. That is just a standered thing to do. You really did screw yourself by not doing that most basic thing. Take the $85.00 discount and learn from this.

 

[Mel72]

I agree, we should have had a written contract and I will never do a project again like this without one. But isn't it the contractor who is supposed to write up the contract?? And why would someone say they hope I am sued. The plumber did a crappy job and all I want is a meaningful reduction of the bill to reflect that.

 

[Just Blue]

I agree, we should have had a written contract and I will never do a project again like this without one. But isn't it the contractor who is supposed to write up the contract?? And why would someone say they hope I am sued. The plumber did a crappy job and all I want is a meaningful reduction of the bill to reflect that.

That "person" that stated that is a site vetted attorney.

The plumber did the job you paid for. If you wanted done right you should have had a contract. If the contractor did not/would not provide that is a BIG RED HERRING, and you should have hired someone else. IMPO.

Another thing that may be an issue it the "correction" that your BF did. It may have vacated any implyed guarentee that the plumber did.

 

[LeeHarveyBlotto]

What your boyfriend makes at his profession is irrelevant. As a plumber, his time isn't worth squat, as he's not qualified. What he took six hours to do, my guy would have done in 15 minutes and charged me for an hour. The $85 is reasonable, and the judge will rule in his favor for far closer to his number than yours.