Disclosure of Barking Dogs

[Ed in CA]

What is the name of your state? California

I'm getting ready to sell my house and was wondering about what I must disclose, particularly in regard to a neighbor with a number of dogs. The dogs are quiet most of the day and at night, however, during a few hours in the evening, the owners seem to let them bark at will. The dogs are small, and you can pretty much shut out the noise by closing the windows, but it can get irritating if you keep the windows open. I have spoken to the neighbors without any results. Is this something I need to disclose? My family is very quiet, so we notice any noises. I'm not sure others would consider it that big of a problem. If I need to disclose, how could I state it without ruining the sale? Or, should I try to eliminate it somehow first? The city I live in requires two complaints before they will do anything. Thanks for any advice.

EdWhat is the name of your state?

[PghREA]

Fill out the property disclosure form. If there is a question about the neighbor's barking dogs, answer it truthfully.

[Ed in CA]

Thanks PghREA, but my questions aren’t about filling out the form truthfully. I’m trying to determine what actually constitutes a “disturbance” as the form states it. For example, do you need to disclose the fact that a neighbor has a baby that cries frequently, or that you can clearly hear the elderly neighbor’s chronic cough, from your back yard? I’d be willing to bet that no neighborhood in the United States is 100% quiet all the time. It’s probably more like 20% of the time. I made it clear that the dogs aren’t barking all the time, and I also made no statement that I was going to lie about anything, so please don’t imply it.

[PghREA]

We don't have a question about "disturbance" on the PA property disclosure form.

However, common sense would tell me that a neighbor coughing, baby crying, and occasional barking dog would be a normal occurrence in a populated neighborhood.

[PghREA]

Okay, so there is a question about "disturbance" on your property disclosure form.

Simply state that your neighbor's dogs bark for a few hours every evening.

IMO, a baby crying, a neighbor coughing, or a dog occasionally barking is "normal" for a populated neighborhood.

[divgradcurl]

Originally Posted by Ed in CA

Thanks PghREA, but my questions aren’t about filling out the form truthfully. I’m trying to determine what actually constitutes a “disturbance” as the form states it. For example, do you need to disclose the fact that a neighbor has a baby that cries frequently, or that you can clearly hear the elderly neighbor’s chronic cough, from your back yard? I’d be willing to bet that no neighborhood in the United States is 100% quiet all the time. It’s probably more like 20% of the time. I made it clear that the dogs aren’t barking all the time, and I also made no statement that I was going to lie about anything, so please don’t imply it.

Be as accurate as you can on the disclosure form. It's better to disclose the barking dogs now, and risk missing a sale, then to fail to disclose and then get dragged into court later. California places a lot of reponsibility on the seller to disclose EVERYTHING, so it doesn't do any good to hide anything or overlook anything. Even little inconsequential stuff should go on the disclosure form -- full disclosure is always the best in CA.

[Ed in CA]

Let’s be realistic here. If you hand a buyer a list of reasons to not buy your house, they probably won’t buy your house. Furthermore, I don’t see how you can be “dragged into court” for something you don’t consider a disturbance. They would have to be able to prove somehow that you considered it a disturbance and purposefully tried to conceal it. In my case, I did discuss the dogs with the neighbor, so I guess I’m done for in that regard. But advising someone to disclose every “inconsequential” item is not practical, and most likely detrimental. I’m pretty sure I explained everything clearly already and was looking for some creative ways of dealing with my situation, for example (and as already stated): should I try to eliminate the problem with the neighbor first—how to do that, or, how can I describe the dogs without ruining the sale? (PgaREA addressed the latter by saying, “Simply state that your neighbor's dogs bark for a few hours every evening.” Thanks PgaREA.)

[divgradcurl]

I am realistic. I've bought and sold homes in CA, and I'm an attorney in CA. I didn't make what I wrote up out of whole cloth. California has probably the most strict laws on seller disclosure in the nation, and sellers have been drawn into court for less than this. Would the buyers in this case win if they brought a case for failure to disclose? Who knows -- but do you even want to deal with the potential court battle, win or lose? Anyone can get dragged into court for anything -- besides, it's not whether you would consider it a nuisance, the standard is whether a "reasonable person" would consider it a nuisance or not. Not everything that could possibly annoy someone is a nuisance -- but just because you might have a higher tolerance than the next guy doesn't mean that a nuisance doesn't exist, either.

Clearly the dogs barking are enough of a nuisance that you took the time to post your question here. PghREA gave you a suggestion on how to address it; I simply suggested that you should address it. But you can do whatever you want.

[Ed in CA]

I don’t understand why you keep missing my point. I DO want to address it. I’m asking HOW BEST I can address it. Simply advising me to note it on the form is advice, I guess, but not really much help, and not what I asked at the outset.

I also keep getting the vibe that you think I’m trying to do something underhanded or dishonest. I did not ask at any time, how I can avoid disclosing a nuisance. This is the gist of my original post:

1. Is this a reportable disturbance?
2. If so, how best can I report it so I don’t ruin my chance for a sale?
3. Or, should I try to take care of the disturbance before doing anything else?

Also, your argument that anyone can get dragged into court for anything, is unfortunately correct, however, we have to reach a point in our lives where we stop preparing for every possible scenario that might occur and get on with a more practical approach.

BTW, I used caps above for emphasis, not shouting.

[Zigner]

Ed - I think everyone responding to your posts is getting the impression that you have a guilty conscience. You have received valid advice. Simply state that the dogs bark occasionally. If you want different advice, then find and pay an attorney (who will likely give you the same advice.)

[Ed in CA]

Thanks, Zigner. Big help. I acknowledged PghREA's advice and thanked him. I was responding to divgradcurl's statements.

[fairisfair]

Originally Posted by Ed in CA

I don’t understand why you keep missing my point. I DO want to address it. I’m asking HOW BEST I can address it. Simply advising me to note it on the form is advice, I guess, but not really much help, and not what I asked at the outset.

I also keep getting the vibe that you think I’m trying to do something underhanded or dishonest. I did not ask at any time, how I can avoid disclosing a nuisance. This is the gist of my original post:

1. Is this a reportable disturbance? yes, see Shapiro vs. Sutherland, 70 Cal.Rptr.2d 548, need to disclose noisy neighbors, this would probably include noisy dog neighbors
2. If so, how best can I report it so I don’t ruin my chance for a sale?simply and directly, with CA disclosure requirements, there may be many other things listed, I would simply state occasional barking dogs.
3. Or, should I try to take care of the disturbance before doing anything else? Of course you should, try addressing it with the neighbors, check to see if any ordinances give you a remedy to noise nuisances.

Also, your argument that anyone can get dragged into court for anything, is unfortunately correct, however, we have to reach a point in our lives where we stop preparing for every possible scenario that might occur and get on with a more practical approach.

BTW, I used caps above for emphasis, not shouting.

It isn't that big of a deal. I doubt that unless the dogs are barking incessantly when the prospective buyers come to view the home, that they will even pay much attention to your disclosure, and if they are barking, then they wouldn't need you to tell them anyway.

[Ed in CA]

thanks, fair. I read the summary of the case you mentioned. Compared to that problem, I think you're right on when you say occasional barking dogs are not that big of a deal.

regarding your recommendation about taking care of the problem first, I guess since I've already spoken to the neighbor, and the city requires two separate complaints before they will take action, the next step would be to hire an attorney to threaten a lawsuit, if I felt they were preventing me from selling the house. Agree?

[fairisfair]

Originally Posted by Ed in CA

thanks, fair. I read the summary of the case you mentioned. Compared to that problem, I think you're right on when you say occasional barking dogs are not that big of a deal.

regarding your recommendation about taking care of the problem first, I guess since I've already spoken to the neighbor, and the city requires two separate complaints before they will take action, the next step would be to hire an attorney to threaten a lawsuit, if I felt they were preventing me from selling the house. Agree?

Not really, I would say next step would be listing and trying to sell the house (and stocking up on lots of doggie treats, you know the kind they have to chew, and chew and chew!!). Maybe your neighbor might not object to keeping the yappers inside when you have prospective buyers scheduled.

Then worry about the rest if you have a problem. Mountain, meet molehill. Good luck!!

[Ed in CA]

ok thanks.