Dishonesty on Property Disclosure & Home Inspector "Dropping the Ball"

[NickyChickie]

first, and I thought it was a type but apparently it isn't but the word is: mediation, not meditation.

So, the water heater was $800. That's a pretty pricey water heater to start with especially seeing it is electric. The seller is only liable for, at most, the cost of the heater. They will not be liable for changing to electric. That was your choice and is on you so we are stuck at $440.

What the seller would be liable for, again, at most, is what it would cost to replace the gas water heater with a like unit and nothing more. (if that is more or less than $440, you would have a reasonable argument for only as much as a like replacement would cost)

Let's presume the seller refuses mediation. Are you planning on doing this pro se in small claims?

So, was the water heater not producing any hot water?

-- Thank you for the spell check!

The cost of the electric water heater was less than the gas water heater, plus the cost to replace it by licensed contractors (I received several quotes).

The cost was $430 for the electric water heater and the gas was $480. - the reason why the water heaters are so expensive, is because they are for a manufactured house and there are specific requirements for manufactured homes for water heaters. - The remaining amount bringing the cost to $800 was the labor to install and nothing more. Of the other quotes I received, they were all in/around $1500 to purchase and install a gas water heater.

Small claims court does seem logical however it will be interesting to see the response from this seller as they are cross country in another state! In my humble opinion, I feel it is foolish for them to not do the right thing. Their greed will just lead them more stress and cost them more money.

The hot water heater was not producing any hot water. We cut the water heater open yesterday and video taped / photographed the event to show the amount of sediment that had settled in the tank. The sediment had mineralized the whole base (several inches thick) and wall of the tank!

 

[NickyChickie]

If I buy a place and the water heater is more than seven years old, I automatically PRESUME I could incur the cost of a water heater replacement. The first thing I do after looking over the foundation and electric boxes is find the age on the mechanicals.

At 16 years, it's almost a given. Regardless of whether it is producing hot water now, it could go tomorrow.

You're very right. I was foolish to trust the home inspector - indeed lesson learned!

I was present for the inspection and agreed to not get in the inspectors way and stayed with the realtor... however I do recollect when the inspector turned on the hot water tank, after the first hour it started to make loud banging noises. I asked why it was making so much noise and he told me that it was normal. In hindsight, I feel foolish.

 

[Zigner]

You're very right. I was foolish to trust the home inspector - indeed lesson learned!

I was present for the inspection and agreed to not get in the inspectors way and stayed with the realtor... however I do recollect when the inspector turned on the hot water tank, after the first hour it started to make loud banging noises. I asked why it was making so much noise and he told me that it was normal. In hindsight, I feel foolish.

Now we're back to you KNOWING of the issues with the water heater in the first place

 

[justalayman]

If it wasn't producing any heated water and the disclosure was marked as there being no problems, you likely have a valid claim. If the seller lived in the house when it was sold, that would mean they lived without any hot water. That does make one wonder.

If it was producing heated water but at a slower rate, the seller may not perceived that to be a problem and as such, was honest on the disclosure. If it produced no heated water and was that way when they lived there, then obviously the disclosure would be false.

In either case, it would appear the distance may be your biggest hurdle to overcome. Depending on all the facts, you may have to sue them in their state. In today's economy with gas prices or even worse, airfare or some other mode of transportation, it could quickly cost more to sue than you would ever recover. Travel expenses are not recoverable.

 

[Zigner]

The transaction occurred at the house. Wouldn't that be the proper venue?

 

[NickyChickie]

this makes absolutely no sense. With propane, there are 2 regulators before the fuel even enters that house. Then there are regulators on each appliance. If there was a pressure problem, the remedy is to replace whatever regulator is defective, not all of the appliances. Most times the regulators outside of the home belong to the gas supplier if it is a large tank. As such, they replace those regulators for free since they are theirs. Then, that leaves the reg on the stove. Maybe $100-$200 tops. Most likely less, if it even needs to be replaced. Of course, if one of the primary regulators was bad, you wouldn't know if the reg in the appliances was bad or not until you fixed the primary regulators.

It's kind of odd that you would have so much problem of being overcome with CO yet the seller lived there and is apparently still alive.

-- Prior to closing on the home, the home inspector did suspect a CO problem because we could not get the furnace lit. I called the propane company to come and inspect the pressure and called in a plumber to check for CO. when the propane people came to check the pressure, the rubber tube attached to the gauge used to measure the pressure broke when they attached it to the line. the test was incomplete, however the technician from the propane company assured me that there was never a problem at the home and i should rest assured that everything looks okay.

the plumber checked for presence of CO a few days prior but said there was no problem either.

once we were in the home and had no hot water (it was memorial day weekend - couldn't get a plumber), it had been 2 days and we needed a bath! we turned on the stove and put four pots of hot water on the stove on a med/high (not full blast) flame. within 20 minutes the house stunk of propane and we got headaches and nauseas.

the next day a plumber came to look at the hot water tank to replace it and noticed the outside of the tank was all burned. they said there was a lack of fresh air getting to the tank because it was not installed correctly and that there was a build up of CO causing the flame to suffocate.

Taken these three events (the visit from the incompetent propane tech), the house stinking like propane from the stove and getting sick and a vent problem with the hot water tank - would you really want to mess with propane anymore?

I have learned quickly here in New Mexico that this is the "Land of Manana" so it is called because of the professionals view of "we'll get it done tomorrow" and this applies to emergencies, safety, etc. There are very few contractors / professionals who take their jobs seriously and take consideration for the people who may be affected by procrastination.

I even received this treatment from the contractors I tried to get to replace the hot water tank at Home Depot. So, I am not just speaking of the average joe, I'm talking about large corporations too. Home depot didn't want to touch the propane gas hot water heater tank situation because of the level of danger that presented itself with the pressure.

I don't make these things up, it is what it is!

Indeed the seller did live here but the home was vacant for a while. Who really knows what happened to the seller, should we really begin to assume or speculate?

We can only go by the facts, right?

In so far as the appliances go, they were all dated to 1999. With the safety issues at hand and the dated appliances, I don't mind replacing them - as long as I know my family and home are safe when they are operating.

 

[Zigner]

The more information you give, the less I feel the seller is responsible. The problems you describe could have occurred during the period of vacancy. That is why you need to make particularly thorough inspections on any home that has been vacant for a period of time.

 

[NickyChickie]

Now we're back to you KNOWING of the issues with the water heater in the first place

I was told it was normal noises. I'm not a mechanical person - I can only trust what I'm being told by someone who is supposedly a professional. My questioning something does not mean "Knowing" - as that would indicate I would have had confidence in my knowledge. Which I did not have at the time.

I only feel foolish now that I know what I do today.

 

[NickyChickie]

If it wasn't producing any heated water and the disclosure was marked as there being no problems, you likely have a valid claim. If the seller lived in the house when it was sold, that would mean they lived without any hot water. That does make one wonder.

If it was producing heated water but at a slower rate, the seller may not perceived that to be a problem and as such, was honest on the disclosure. If it produced no heated water and was that way when they lived there, then obviously the disclosure would be false.

In either case, it would appear the distance may be your biggest hurdle to overcome. Depending on all the facts, you may have to sue them in their state. In today's economy with gas prices or even worse, airfare or some other mode of transportation, it could quickly cost more to sue than you would ever recover. Travel expenses are not recoverable.

-- Well, I hate to speculate but the amount of sediment and professional opinions I received from several plumbers once I had moved in indicated that this sort of sediment and appliance failure does not happen over a year or two, it takes many years of neglect of a hot water heater to create those circumstances. Based on those facts, as well as the sellers reaction on the phone to me, I can't help but think she is shaking in her boots at this time considering whether I will be successful in recouping all my money from the home inspector.

However, you are right, there are fantastic elements to consider and I'm sure she is considering them too. I have some phone calls out to attorneys for consults and awaiting guidance and will quote law in my emails to try to intimidate her with knowledge. Hopefully, her fear will push her to a place where I will receive my money.

In hindsight, I am laughing because during the negotiations process, my husband and I ran a background check on her and kept all the information. He asked me "Why do we really need this?" It's good to know who you're buying from *smiles*

 

[justalayman]

Taken these three events (the visit from the incompetent propane tech), the house stinking like propane from the stove and getting sick and a vent problem with the hot water tank - would you really want to mess with propane anymore?

personally, it would not dissuade me. You fix problems.

If you still have a gas furnace, be sure to get a CO detector. From what you said, nobody ever took a CO reading (which is totally odor free btw). If you smelled propane, there was unburned propane somewhere. That would mean you were exposed to methane.


what it sounds like is either the primary or secondary mainline regulators is not working correctly. You should get that looked into if you still have a gas appliance (furnace). It can damage the regulator on the appliance if the pressure that passes through it high enough. You wouldn't want to find that out on a cold night when you went to fire the furnace.

 

[NickyChickie]

personally, it would not dissuade me. You fix problems.

If you still have a gas furnace, be sure to get a CO detector. From what you said, nobody ever took a CO reading (which is totally odor free btw). If you smelled propane, there was unburned propane somewhere. That would mean you were exposed to methane.


what it sounds like is either the primary or secondary mainline regulators is not working correctly. You should get that looked into if you still have a gas appliance (furnace). It can damage the regulator on the appliance if the pressure that passes through it high enough. You wouldn't want to find that out on a cold night when you went to fire the furnace.

wow where were you when I needed someone who knew a lot about propane a few days ago? LOL! I have since removed all the propane appliances and tank from my property. I'll be tearing the propane furnace out in a few weeks too and replacing that with an electric one.

 

[Zigner]

wow where were you when I needed someone who knew a lot about propane a few days ago? LOL! I have since removed all the propane appliances and tank from my property. I'll be tearing the propane furnace out in a few weeks too and replacing that with an electric one.

Your electric bill is going to be ENORMOUS.

 

[anteater]

...along with my soon to be posted youtube video of the cutting open of the water heater and photographs of the sediment pouring out of the tank.

I am curious. Are you creating a tutorial on how to cut open a water heater?

 

[NickyChickie]

Your electric bill is going to be ENORMOUS.

not at all - if you think about the rising cost and trends in propane as of lately and the future of where these costs lead to, I am sure end of year I will break even.

Factor in the lease cost for the propane tank, delivery, taxes, surcharges and actual rising cost for the fuel, then the cost of the old appliances that not only run on propane but also electricity as well for ignition and their lack of efficiency... there's also the age factor going into these appliances that they had to work harder to get the same job done - so after doing the math - it will be the same costs, if not lower.

I'd bet my bippy on that one!

Plus... I'm lowering my carbon footprint -- by the summer of 2012 we're installing solar and wind technology for back up power. I plan to become a dealer in the technology.

 

[NickyChickie]

I am curious. Are you creating a tutorial on how to cut open a water heater?

I was actually thinking of going "office space" on it -purely for entertainment value!