Can I appeal an order if the lawyer didn't object?

[Proserpina]

The bottom line here is that Dad obviously made a case and in Arkansas that's not easy to do given that the presumption is in favor of relocation.

Practical advice: She and Dad need to get on the same page. Parenting classes, reading books on the subject - seems to me that either or both could use some outsider help. Mom also needs to understand that as far as the child is concerned, her and Dad have equal rights (visitation etc. notwithstanding).

If Mom could read this next bit, that'd be great:

Mom, DO NOT be under the impression that just because you failed this time around, doesn't mean you can try again in a year if nothing has changed. We've seen it, heard it and could probably write the book on it.

So far the court is not greatly impressed with her and the last thing she wants to do is annoy the judge again.

 

[stealth2]

The bottom line here is that Dad obviously made a case and in Arkansas that's not easy to do given that the presumption is in favor of relocation.

Practical advice: She and Dad need to get on the same page. Parenting classes, reading books on the subject - seems to me that either or both could use some outsider help. Mom also needs to understand that as far as the child is concerned, her and Dad have equal rights (visitation etc. notwithstanding).

If Mom could read this next bit, that'd be great:

Mom, DO NOT be under the impression that just because you failed this time around, doesn't mean you can try again in a year if nothing has changed. We've seen it, heard it and could probably write the book on it.

So far the court is not greatly impressed with her and the last thing she wants to do is annoy the judge again.

And part of the problem *may* be that OP/stepdad annoyed the judge.

 

[Proserpina]

And part of the problem *may* be that OP/stepdad annoyed the judge.

I'd put money on it. In a pro-relocation state, it's not common at all for the court to deny the petition...but one of the key reasons is that the parent wishing to relocate (and/or his/her latest partner) appears to be trying to thwart the other parent's relationship with the child.

In this case too, Mom admitted (or at least the OP did and I imagine Mom would tell the truth on the stand..because everyone does, right?) that the move was not financially necessary.

Add to that the timing (7 months?!) and that's a perfect trifecta right there.

 

[databit]

Then I would like to ask a very specific question, for the "WE" part of this, Why was Mom being so unreasonable, demanding it be done her way, when the judge clearly wanted the parents to work together outside of the order, if they could. And why didn't you as the Step Parent part of the WE explained exactly what you did here and encourage your wife to be more cooperative?. Did you ever consider lack of involvement has a lot to do with your wife's behavior towards him? Has she stopped to think her behavior caused your not being able to move, or is she to busy blaming the judge?

I think you summed up half of the communication problem pretty reasonably. Part of the reason there is so much tension between those two is that he was a hands off parent, worked on a boat and would be gone months at a time, and let/encouraged my wife (his at the time) to make practically all the decisions about the kids lives. After the divorce that didn't change until she moved in with me, that's when he started getting a since of closure, took a local job and started being a bit more active. My wife has a hard time with "allowing" him to do this because she is protective of the kids, some would say over protective. She is aware of this and tries to let it go but she gets frustrated and that causes quite a bit of conflict. That's one of those things about divorce, you have to learn to share the responsibilities of the kids with someone you obviously don't trust or you would still be married.
There are three sides to a divorce and two of those sides are rarely, if ever, saints. On another side of this you have the kids, their schedule and routine. They are busy kids and don't get told "No you can't sign up for that activity" near enough by either parent. This requires both parents to constantly have to compromise to work out the schedules. Two parents that have trouble communicating, don't trust each other, and don't like each other, hence the divorce.
The third side would be the kids dad and he certainly doesn't fart roses. He has had a history of not paying his full child support, not paying anything towards medical bills, telling the kids that it is their mom's fault he doesn't have money and that's just the financials but it causes a ton of bad feelings that cause conflict. On the non quantifiable, his parenting style is to tell the kids that he isn't going to insure they do anything because they should learn to take responsibility for the consequences, then he doesn't give any consequences, tells them how unfair consequences are, and tries to skirt those consequences by telling them to lie to their mom/teachers. That makes her angry and it makes me angry because I have a similar philosophy but I prefer to actually take responsibility and be honest about my actions.
So, pretty much, no saints here and I know that my wife and I both know this. Her being "so unreasonable, demanding it be done her way" was that she did't think it was good for the kids to be out until midnight on school nights, she tried to be ok with it at first, despite her intuition, and was getting complaints from the teachers that the kids were falling asleep in class, then the kids would come here after school and want to go directly to sleep. She tried working with him and rearranging the visitation to work with his schedule better, basically shift it all over by 1 day to fall on his off days but he did not want to compromise. So she made a decision she thought was in the best interest of the kids, knowing there was a risk of angering the judge (we discussed it back then) but looking at the order and talking to our attorney it seemed to be the best option.
Apparently, this was the wrong option. Now the kids are at a disadvantage, they aren't going to "do without" really but the opportunities the move and the job for me would have given them were substantial. They get the advantage of being closer to their dad and seeing him regularly and that's a good thing.

 

[databit]

The bottom line here is that Dad obviously made a case and in Arkansas that's not easy to do given that the presumption is in favor of relocation.

Practical advice: She and Dad need to get on the same page. Parenting classes, reading books on the subject - seems to me that either or both could use some outsider help. Mom also needs to understand that as far as the child is concerned, her and Dad have equal rights (visitation etc. notwithstanding).

If Mom could read this next bit, that'd be great:

Mom, DO NOT be under the impression that just because you failed this time around, doesn't mean you can try again in a year if nothing has changed. We've seen it, heard it and could probably write the book on it.

So far the court is not greatly impressed with her and the last thing she wants to do is annoy the judge again.

He did make a case, my wife and I believe that we made the right choice when it came to the visitation changes and stand by that choice, missing out on the relocation is a consequence of that choice and we are ok with it.

Since the first order in Feb 2013, my wife had sent emails and letters asking him to go to parenting classes but he refuses. We've read books, websites and anything else we can find but she still has trouble with that last part about letting things go when they are with their Dad, she admits this.

When we told the kids we wouldn't be moving, the oldest two really had their heart set on it and hate it here, they asked if this means that we won't move ever. We had talked it over and know that we missed our opportunity, mainly because we refuse to move them while any of the kids are in there last 3 years of school and that is the case next year. So we told them that it means we won't be able to move until the last one graduates and then we would likely consider it. For the next 7 years we will not consider relocating.

 

[databit]

I'd put money on it. In a pro-relocation state, it's not common at all for the court to deny the petition...but one of the key reasons is that the parent wishing to relocate (and/or his/her latest partner) appears to be trying to thwart the other parent's relationship with the child.

In this case too, Mom admitted (or at least the OP did and I imagine Mom would tell the truth on the stand..because everyone does, right?) that the move was not financially necessary.

Add to that the timing (7 months?!) and that's a perfect trifecta right there.

Actually, in the judges final statements (not sure what they are called) he said that he sees substantial financial, educational and cultural benefits to the move. His concern was that the history of interfering with visitation showed cause for concern because if a similar issue were to occur while out of state then the dad wouldn't see the kids for a long time, which would be bad for the kids.

As to annoying the judge, I may have but I'm not sure how, all they asked me was if I thought he was a good Dad and I said yes then asked me about the particulars on the new job vs my new one and any other career benefits relocating would offer. Other than the dad part, my testimony didn't have much to do with the actual visitation/parenting of the kids.

 

[Ohiogal]

He did make a case, my wife and I believe that we made the right choice when it came to the visitation changes and stand by that choice, missing out on the relocation is a consequence of that choice and we are ok with it.

Since the first order in Feb 2013, my wife had sent emails and letters asking him to go to parenting classes but he refuses. We've read books, websites and anything else we can find but she still has trouble with that last part about letting things go when they are with their Dad, she admits this.

When we told the kids we wouldn't be moving, the oldest two really had their heart set on it and hate it here, they asked if this means that we won't move ever. We had talked it over and know that we missed our opportunity, mainly because we refuse to move them while any of the kids are in there last 3 years of school and that is the case next year. So we told them that it means we won't be able to move until the last one graduates and then we would likely consider it. For the next 7 years we will not consider relocating.

You are too overinvolved.

 

[databit]

You are too overinvolved.

That's been said a few times, I don't get how I'm over involved?
I came here to ask a question about the appeal process and if this can/should be appealed because I have to call and turn down a substantial job offer. Timing is critical and I wanted to see what the outlook was. Other than that I've tried to explain the situation that lead to the judgement.
I'm actually asking though, not a rhetorical question. If I am over stepping I'd like to know so I can maybe make adjustments in my behavior.

 

[LdiJ]

That's been said a few times, I don't get how I'm over involved?
I came here to ask a question about the appeal process and if this can/should be appealed because I have to call and turn down a substantial job offer. Timing is critical and I wanted to see what the outlook was. Other than that I've tried to explain the situation that lead to the judgement.
I'm actually asking though, not a rhetorical question. If I am over stepping I'd like to know so I can maybe make adjustments in my behavior.

In this particular issue I do not agree that you are overly involved, because the issue directly impacts you. You are not impacted simply as the husband, but directly impacted because of a job opportunity that you may have to turn down.

However, again...the judge has made his decision and it doesn't sound like its something that could be appealed. However, you are certainly free to consult with a local attorney in case there is something you haven't thought to tell us that might make a difference.

 

[Proserpina]

Actually, in the judges final statements (not sure what they are called) he said that he sees substantial financial, educational and cultural benefits to the move. His concern was that the history of interfering with visitation showed cause for concern because if a similar issue were to occur while out of state then the dad wouldn't see the kids for a long time, which would be bad for the kids.

As to annoying the judge, I may have but I'm not sure how, all they asked me was if I thought he was a good Dad and I said yes then asked me about the particulars on the new job vs my new one and any other career benefits relocating would offer. Other than the dad part, my testimony didn't have much to do with the actual visitation/parenting of the kids.

With substantial financial, education and cultural (cultural? Explain that one please) benefits, and with the presumption being in favor of relocation, the move should have been a virtual shoe-in. But despite having all of this on her side, she still managed to get denied. Does she actually understand the ramifications of this? This is not Dad's fault (and seriously dude, Mom isn't exactly in the running for "Best Parent Of The Year" herself), and it's not the court's fault. This comes down to Mom's actions.

 

[ecmst12]

I don't think you're overinvolved either. The biggest mistake was to talk about the move with the kids before knowing if it would be allowed. But that's done, the decision is made and it sounds like you are now ready to accept it and move on. I hope you continue to support your wife in developing a better coparenting relationship with her ex.

 

[Ohiogal]

He did make a case, my wife and I believe that we made the right choice when it came to the visitation changes and stand by that choice, missing out on the relocation is a consequence of that choice and we are ok with it.

Since the first order in Feb 2013, my wife had sent emails and letters asking him to go to parenting classes but he refuses. We've read books, websites and anything else we can find but she still has trouble with that last part about letting things go when they are with their Dad, she admits this.

When we told the kids we wouldn't be moving, the oldest two really had their heart set on it and hate it here, they asked if this means that we won't move ever. We had talked it over and know that we missed our opportunity, mainly because we refuse to move them while any of the kids are in there last 3 years of school and that is the case next year. So we told them that it means we won't be able to move until the last one graduates and then we would likely consider it. For the next 7 years we will not consider relocating.

Look at the bolded.
1) You had NO RIGHT to make any changes to visitation and quite frankly no right to involve yourself in that.
2) You are not the children's parent. You are not their father. They have a father.
3) The children should not have been told they were moving. The children should NOT have been made excited about the move when their father was against the idea and was fighting a move. You have managed to make the dad the enemy by telling the children that the opportunity is missed and now no one will be moved until the last one graduates.


Those things show in this post how you are overinvolved. A few other questions:
1) What do the children call you?
2) Are you on the children's school and medical records? And if so, how are you listed? As a parent or guardian? Is dad listed?
3) Do you sign permission slips or report cards for the children?


There are several mis-steps with your wife as well. She had no right to make changes to the visitation schedule quite frankly. She had no right to deny grandma to pick up the children. She had no right demand that dad take a parenting class -- I can understand why he refuses.

 

[Ohiogal]

I think you summed up half of the communication problem pretty reasonably. Part of the reason there is so much tension between those two is that he was a hands off parent, worked on a boat and would be gone months at a time, and let/encouraged my wife (his at the time) to make practically all the decisions about the kids lives.

Yet your wife benefited from him working on a boat due to the pay and other benefits that went with it.

After the divorce that didn't change until she moved in with me, that's when he started getting a since of closure, took a local job and started being a bit more active. My wife has a hard time with "allowing" him to do this because she is protective of the kids

She "allows" him? She has no right to allow or disallow. She needs to get over being a control freak.

, some would say over protective. She is aware of this and tries to let it go but she gets frustrated and that causes quite a bit of conflict.

Then she needs to grow up and learn to coparent.

That's one of those things about divorce, you have to learn to share the responsibilities of the kids with someone you obviously don't trust or you would still be married.

Quite frankly she should have known how to co-parent before she had all three children with him. These children are NOT just her children. He is just as much as their parent as she is.

The third side would be the kids dad and he certainly doesn't fart roses. He has had a history of not paying his full child support, not paying anything towards medical bills, telling the kids that it is their mom's fault he doesn't have money and that's just the financials but it causes a ton of bad feelings that cause conflict.

AND? His history of child support or not isn't your business. What did your wife to enforce the court order that required him to pay? Did your wife tell him about the appointments that lead to the medical bills? Did she copy him on the bills? Did she put him on the medical records?

On the non quantifiable, his parenting style is to tell the kids that he isn't going to insure they do anything because they should learn to take responsibility for the consequences, then he doesn't give any consequences, tells them how unfair consequences are, and tries to skirt those consequences by telling them to lie to their mom/teachers. That makes her angry and it makes me angry because I have a similar philosophy but I prefer to actually take responsibility and be honest about my actions.

Really? How do you know he tells them to lie? You have no right to be angry about how dad parents HIS children.

So, pretty much, no saints here and I know that my wife and I both know this. Her being "so unreasonable, demanding it be done her way" was that she did't think it was good for the kids to be out until midnight on school nights, she tried to be ok with it at first, despite her intuition, and was getting complaints from the teachers that the kids were falling asleep in class, then the kids would come here after school and want to go directly to sleep. She tried working with him and rearranging the visitation to work with his schedule better, basically shift it all over by 1 day to fall on his off days but he did not want to compromise. So she made a decision she thought was in the best interest of the kids, knowing there was a risk of angering the judge (we discussed it back then) but looking at the order and talking to our attorney it seemed to be the best option.

Yes but your wife unilaterally dictated to dad what would or wouldn't happen.

Apparently, this was the wrong option. Now the kids are at a disadvantage, they aren't going to "do without" really but the opportunities the move and the job for me would have given them were substantial. They get the advantage of being closer to their dad and seeing him regularly and that's a good thing.

So blame your wife because she is the one responsible for the move not taking place. She acted inappropriately and selfishly.

 

[CJane]

That's been said a few times, I don't get how I'm over involved?
I came here to ask a question about the appeal process and if this can/should be appealed because I have to call and turn down a substantial job offer. Timing is critical and I wanted to see what the outlook was. Other than that I've tried to explain the situation that lead to the judgement.
I'm actually asking though, not a rhetorical question. If I am over stepping I'd like to know so I can maybe make adjustments in my behavior.

There are some people who believe that any step-parent who involves themselves with the children in any manner other than perhaps babysitting them occasionally is overstepping. Some people seem to think that the only way to be a successful step-parent is to remain 100% hands-off, and leave all of the parenting/adult interaction/etc to the biological parents.

Some people feel differently. But one of those demographics is louder and more ... vocal ... in their opinion.

I've read your responses, and I don't actually think you're overstepping. I think you're taking a calm and rational approach to this, and rolling with the punches with a lot more grace than a lot of parents who come here.

That said, you've got to turn down that job offer and settle in, frustrating as that may be.

 

[databit]

With substantial financial, education and cultural (cultural? Explain that one please) benefits, and with the presumption being in favor of relocation, the move should have been a virtual shoe-in. But despite having all of this on her side, she still managed to get denied. Does she actually understand the ramifications of this? This is not Dad's fault (and seriously dude, Mom isn't exactly in the running for "Best Parent Of The Year" herself), and it's not the court's fault. This comes down to Mom's actions.

Cultural - My wife had collected information about the local schools, activities, museums, entertainment and such as it compares to our current location then had showed the kids current activities and how it fits it to provide a benefit.
And you are right, it should have been a virtual shoe-in but because of the denial of visitation it was shot down. And yes, she has her faults as a parent as well, I wouldn't say either one of them get a gold star here.

Look at the bolded.
1) You had NO RIGHT to make any changes to visitation and quite frankly no right to involve yourself in that.
2) You are not the children's parent. You are not their father. They have a father.
3) The children should not have been told they were moving. The children should NOT have been made excited about the move when their father was against the idea and was fighting a move. You have managed to make the dad the enemy by telling the children that the opportunity is missed and now no one will be moved until the last one graduates.


Those things show in this post how you are overinvolved. A few other questions:
1) What do the children call you?
2) Are you on the children's school and medical records? And if so, how are you listed? As a parent or guardian? Is dad listed?
3) Do you sign permission slips or report cards for the children?


There are several mis-steps with your wife as well. She had no right to make changes to the visitation schedule quite frankly. She had no right to deny grandma to pick up the children. She had no right demand that dad take a parenting class -- I can understand why he refuses.

1) I didn't make any changes, she consulted me and her attorney and that is the only reason for the use of the word we there
2) I've said I'm not the father and I don't pretend to be, they have a good father, I tell the kids that and that was even in my testimony
3) I wholeheartedly disagree that they should not have been told about the potential move, we told them that it wasn't set in stone but that we were considering it. The move would have great impact on them and we wanted their opinion on the matter before we proceeded. If they had been against the move we wouldn't have gone any further because they deserve an opinion.

1) They call me Steppy, I like it. About 2 hours after we got married, we were walking through the store getting stuff for a softball tournament (yes our honeymoon was that hot) and one of the kids asked "So what do we have to call you dad now?" (jokingly) and I replied "No, you have a dad, I'm <my name>". One of the other kids said "How about Steppy?" I said "I like it!" and they typically call me by name unless they are being funny or want to try and butter me up for something.
2) I am listed as a step parent and able to pick them up, check them out or have lunch with them. Their father is listed as their father. Their father's mother is listed as a contact the same way I am and their father's new wife will be once they are married. That's never been a problem
3) Permission slips and report cards? No. Reading logs and some assignments, if it's convenient then yes. Also, at the kids request I'm the one that typically helps with homework, especially math because I enjoy it.

Court says she had no right to make the changes and deny grandma picking up the kids, she now accepts that and admits it was a misunderstanding on her part. She never demanded that he take a parenting class, she sent 2 emails and a letter that basically said "Look, we suck at communicating and this isn't good for the kids, I found this parenting for divorced parents class and was wondering if you would consider taking it with me." that was it. There was no demand, the 2 emails didn't receive a response so she sent a letter, then gave up the idea.