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Can a judge throw out a case because the decaration is too long?

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kyndrad777

Junior Member
What is the name of your state (only U.S. law)? CA

I filed a motion to set aside because my ex and his spouse modified circumstances just prior to a hearing to benefit from more support. As time went on, over the course of two years, I was able to gather proof that he not only lied about expenses, but excluded income and expenses to make it look like he was struggling. The elements of everything involved include a violent reaction when he received notice of a subpoena I issued - cutting off one of my daughter's hair. The declaration is submitted was 43 pages long, with supporting evidence and documentation.
My ex waited until 7 days before the hearing to hire an attorney, who requested a continuance on the grounds that she had not had time to review the motion.
In court, the judge basically humiliated me in front of everyone, telling me "I can't read this! There's over a hundred pages here!" And held up the motion and waved it around like a flag. This was before any request for a continuance was made.
The judge obviously had not read the motion, I am not sure how he was prepared to hear the case if it had not been continued (which I consented to).
I looked before submitting the declaration for any limits both formal or informal on the length of a declaration. I only found one reference, a court clerk's statement that there are no limits on the size of a declaration as long as one tries to write clearly and concisely and gets to the point. I did all of that, I had several other read it to make sure it made sense and was written well before I sent it in.
Now I am wondering if since the judge obviously doesn't want to read a long declaration, and it is clear now that he does not appreciate pro se litigants as he does attorneys, is he going to and is there any recourse if he dismisses or otherwise throws me out for reasons other than the merits of my case. I have proven all of the elements involved in my request for order, and cited case law that gives the judge jurisdiction and discretion to order for my case. But I am worried he won't even read it and will side with the other party simply because he has an attorney.:(
 
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jbowman

Senior Member
Concise: expressing or covering much in few words; brief in form but comprehensive in scope; succinct;

Would YOU want to read 43 pages? He may NOT have read all the pages because he never expected THAT MANY.

it is clear now that he does not appreciate pro se litigants as he does attorneys,
This may be because attorneys arent so long winded.

By law, he has to read all and take everything into consideration. You may now want to get an attorney to file documents appropriately in the future.

And just an FYI, the income and expense declaration doesnt mean much. It is a just a tool to look for discrepancies. What will really be considered is his income, your income and the amount of time each has the child/children.
 

kyndrad777

Junior Member
Some things may not be able to be explained in two pages. No I would not want to read 43 pages, but it shouldn't be a matter of what he wants. If I could afford an attorney I would have one. Would you WANT to write 43 pages?
I & Es do matter, expenses do matter, such as child care, living expenses, etc. I am sorry, I don't agree with you on that issue because I have had one of mine ripped to shreds while he was trying to say that I did exactly what he has just been caught doing. I was in the clear.
 
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Ohiogal

Queen Bee
Some things may not be able to be explained in two pages. No I would not want to read 43 pages, but it shouldn't be a matter of what he wants. If I could afford an attorney I would have one. Would you WANT to write 43 pages?
I & Es do matter, expenses do matter, such as child care, living expenses, etc. I am sorry, I don't agree with you on that issue because I have had one of mine ripped to shreds while he was trying to say that I did exactly what he has just been caught doing. I was in the clear.
YOU were not concise. You did not write a proper declaration. As a pro se litigant you are expected to act as though you are an attorney and present yourself as such.
 
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kyndrad777

Junior Member
Wrong

In Puckett v. Cox, it was held that a pro-se pleading requires less stringent reading than one drafted by a lawyer (456 F2d 233 (1972 Sixth Circuit USCA). Justice Black in Conley v. Gibson, 355 U.S. 41 at 48 (1957) "The Federal Rules rejects the approach that pleading is a game of skill in which one misstep by counsel may be decisive to the outcome and accept the principle that the purpose of pleading is to facilitate a proper decision on the merits." According to Rule 8(f) FRCP and the State Court rule which holds that all pleadings shall be construed to do substantial justice."

I think that clarifies that case law provides that pro se litigants are not held to the same standards as attorneys and rightfully so. Justice should not prejudice against one who cannot afford an attorney or who is not an attorney. Justice is a constitutional right to all citizens, not just those who know how to play the "game".

You have no idea how concise I was. You are assuming that 43 page = not concise. That is not correct. 43 pages = many events that took place in a span of over two years to support the motion regarding activities engaged by the other party.
 
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What is the name of your state (only U.S. law)? CA

I filed a motion to set aside because my ex and his spouse modified circumstances just prior to a hearing to benefit from more support. As time went on, over the course of two years, I was able to gather proof that he not only lied about expenses, but excluded income and expenses to make it look like he was struggling. The elements of everything involved include a violent reaction when he received notice of a subpoena I issued - cutting off one of my daughter's hair. The declaration is submitted was 43 pages long, with supporting evidence and documentation.
My ex waited until 7 days before the hearing to hire an attorney, who requested a continuance on the grounds that she had not had time to review the motion.
In court, the judge basically humiliated me in front of everyone, telling me "I can't read this! There's over a hundred pages here!" And held up the motion and waved it around like a flag. This was before any request for a continuance was made.
The judge obviously had not read the motion, I am not sure how he was prepared to hear the case if it had not been continued (which I consented to).
I looked before submitting the declaration for any limits both formal or informal on the length of a declaration. I only found one reference, a court clerk's statement that there are no limits on the size of a declaration as long as one tries to write clearly and concisely and gets to the point. I did all of that, I had several other read it to make sure it made sense and was written well before I sent it in.
Now I am wondering if since the judge obviously doesn't want to read a long declaration, and it is clear now that he does not appreciate pro se litigants as he does attorneys, is he going to and is there any recourse if he dismisses or otherwise throws me out for reasons other than the merits of my case. I have proven all of the elements involved in my request for order, and cited case law that gives the judge jurisdiction and discretion to order for my case. But I am worried he won't even read it and will side with the other party simply because he has an attorney.:(

I could cut this post down to about 3-4 sentences and get your point across. If your declaration is this long-winded, I would see the point.
Have an outside party read and re-write. Someone who is not emotionally attached could easily cut something like that down.
 
In Puckett v. Cox, it was held that a pro-se pleading requires less stringent reading than one drafted by a lawyer (456 F2d 233 (1972 Sixth Circuit USCA). Justice Black in Conley v. Gibson, 355 U.S. 41 at 48 (1957) "The Federal Rules rejects the approach that pleading is a game of skill in which one misstep by counsel may be decisive to the outcome and accept the principle that the purpose of pleading is to facilitate a proper decision on the merits." According to Rule 8(f) FRCP and the State Court rule which holds that all pleadings shall be construed to do substantial justice."

I think that clarifies that case law provides that pro se litigants are not held to the same standards as attorneys and rightfully so. Justice should not prejudice against one who cannot afford an attorney or who is not an attorney. Justice is a constitutional right to all citizens, not just those who know how to play the "game".

You have no idea how concise I was. You are assuming that 43 page = not concise. That is not correct. 43 pages = many events that took place in a span of over two years to support the motion regarding activities engaged by the other party.
Why do you keep modifying posts???? Your making this confusing. reply, don't modify.
PS - I saw the other modify that you called JB a J @SS. You modified that out.
 

kyndrad777

Junior Member
In my experience with this forum, you have to write it out because many of those who frequent and respond have a tendency to make big assumptions based on little information. The same goes for the courts. If you leave to many holes, people like you will find a way to fill them in with unfounded ideas and suggestions about the person who is simply asking a question.
I read a lot of posts here and I see that many of the seasoned posts are here so they can exercise their own narcissism. There are a few here whose comments are appreciated because they are kept within the confines of the information provided, as opposed to assuming that all new posters or askers are wrong and guilty of something. I have yet to see more than just a few non-overly opinionated regular posters.
 

kyndrad777

Junior Member
Why do you keep modifying posts???? Your making this confusing. reply, don't modify.
PS - I saw the other modify that you called JB a J @SS. You modified that out.
I didn't modify that out, the mod did.

My space bar is sticky so I edit the posts for clarity and conciseness. Why does it matter?
 
In my experience with this forum, you have to write it out because many of those who frequent and respond have a tendency to make big assumptions based on little information. The same goes for the courts. If you leave to many holes, people like you will find a way to fill them in with unfounded ideas and suggestions about the person who is simply asking a question.
I read a lot of posts here and I see that many of the seasoned posts are here so they can exercise their own narcissism. There are a few here whose comments are appreciated because they are kept within the confines of the information provided, as opposed to assuming that all new posters or askers are wrong and guilty of something. I have yet to see more than just a few non-overly opinionated regular posters.
People "like me"?
I gave you a suggestion to cut down your declaration without paying an attorney. I think your the one making ASSumptions.
Your welcome Jerk! ... as I roll my eyes:rolleyes: and wipe my hands clean of you...
 

Zigner

Senior Member, Non-Attorney
Who cares what we say?
Who cares what the attorney says?

The JUDGE in YOUR CASE doesn't want to deal with something that long. That's a pretty darn big hint on what you need to do!
 

kyndrad777

Junior Member
People "like me"?
I gave you a suggestion to cut down your declaration without paying an attorney. I think your the one making ASSumptions.
Your welcome Jerk! ... as I roll my eyes:rolleyes: and wipe my hands clean of you...
You said my post was too long. It wasn't. My comment to you was justified. Your comment back only proves me right. Good riddance.
 

You Are Guilty

Senior Member
In Puckett v. Cox, it was held that a pro-se pleading requires less stringent reading than one drafted by a lawyer (456 F2d 233 (1972 Sixth Circuit USCA). Justice Black in Conley v. Gibson, 355 U.S. 41 at 48 (1957) "The Federal Rules rejects the approach that pleading is a game of skill in which one misstep by counsel may be decisive to the outcome and accept the principle that the purpose of pleading is to facilitate a proper decision on the merits." According to Rule 8(f) FRCP and the State Court rule which holds that all pleadings shall be construed to do substantial justice."

I think that clarifies that case law provides that pro se litigants are not held to the same standards as attorneys and rightfully so. Justice should not prejudice against one who cannot afford an attorney or who is not an attorney. Justice is a constitutional right to all citizens, not just those who know how to play the "game".

You have no idea how concise I was. You are assuming that 43 page = not concise. That is not correct. 43 pages = many events that took place in a span of over two years to support the motion regarding activities engaged by the other party.
If we're playing the Cite Random Case game, here's my entry:
"Litigants, even if they proceed pro se, are presumed to know the law and are bound thereby…” State by Abrams v. New York City Conciliation and Appeals Bd., 472 N.Y.S.2d 839, 842 (1Dept 1984)
 

Ohiogal

Queen Bee
If we're playing the Cite Random Case game, here's my entry:
And YAG proves my point. Hey but you decided to call names. And now you are insulting people who were trying to help you. You need to know what you are doing quite frankly.

A few things: Is all evidence supposed to be filed with your initial motion? Is 43 pages of declaration necessary since most cases can be summarized in less than 10 pages? What extraneous details other than all exhibits did you add to your motion?

Oh and cutting hair is NOT an act of violence legally. Parents are allowed to cut their children's hair.
 

jbowman

Senior Member
You have no idea how concise I was. You are assuming that 43 page = not concise. That is not correct. 43 pages = many events that took place in a span of over two years to support the motion regarding activities engaged by the other party.
Apparently, judge did not agree.

I would like to know why you are on here asking questions if you are just going to argue with the answers like you already know. I dont understand why people do this.

And as far as NOT agreeing with me about the I&E form, I couldnt care less. BUT what I say is true. Child support is NOT based on your income and expense report. It is based on Your income, dads income and the % of time each of you have. Child care and medical etc are mandatory add ons in CA. So while the info on the little "fill in the blank" form may be good for informational purposes, it is NOT used for calculation.
 

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