Custody & Visitation

[lkshelton]

What is the name of your state? TX

I'm not sure if any of you can help me with these questions but I hope that you can at least clear some things up for me.

My husband and his ex-wife have a daughter who will be 11 years old this year. We live about 15 miles apart. They have joint managing conservatorship. The Decree states that he is allowed Tuesdays from 6-8pm, but he hasn't really ever utilized that time - his work hours aren't always the same and sometimes he doesn't get home before 6:00pm.

Recently my husband called his ex to inform her that he had some baseball tickets for next Tuesday night and would like to pick his daughter up to take her to the game and have her spend the night with us and he would make certain that she was dropped off at her house ready for school the next morning. The ex said she'd think about it - when my husband explained there was nothing to think about - that he was picking his daughter up to take her to the game, she then said...then no, she couldn't go.

My question is does the ex-wife have the legal right to deny my husband to see his daughter? It's his daughter too? I find this not very beneficial to their father/daughter relationship - and I don't see how this can happen.

Secondly. My husband also recently found out through his daughter that she was in a different school this year - not only a different school, but a different school district. He was never informed of this change by his ex, and, needless to say, didn't have any say in the decision making process either. I was under the impression that joint managing conservatorship meant each parent would be involved (and in agreement) of such things as military, education, marriage, etc.

Basically, I feel like the ex is deliberately keeping my husband and his daughter from seeing each other and I somehow don't think that's right - legally anyway...

Would you please clarify the law for me - does my husband have to ask permission to see his daughter??? He's just as much her parent as his ex-wife! This is just not fair to me - he's pays child support on time, every month, he's a great father (when he's allowed to be), and he's really getting upset about this and we don't know what we can do - or if we can do anything.

 

[JoandJa'smom]

If the order says that he can have DD from 6-8pm on Tuesday night then he can have his dd, just not overnight or any more time than that. The mom cannot deny visitation, but she can say no and w/in her rights to say no to anymore of what the Court order says.

A little advice here. When dad called and asked mom about the plans and mom said she would think about, dad probably wouldn't gotten the answer he did if he wouldn't have told her that there was nothing to think about. Dad can't demand to have DD overnight when there is no order saying he can have DD overnight on Tuesdays. Mom maybe should have said yes, but your DH demanding to have his way won't get him anywhere. Maybe he should call the mom and apologize and tell her he realizes he doesn't have DD overnight and ask her again about the overnight on the Tues.

If your DH and mom can't work something out then all he can have DD is what the CO says.

If you DH wants more time w/DD he could ask the court to give him overnights on Tuesdays, but seeing that he doesn't use the 6-8 he has already I doubt he will get anymore that what he has. But, he can always try.

JoandJa'smom

 

[lkshelton]

JoandJa’smom. Thanks for your post. I understand that the court order says that he can have his DD on Tuesdays from 6-8 – however, it doesn’t state that he can NOT have her overnight either – his thoughts were that because of his work he can’t always utilize the Tuesday night visits so on the off occasion that he is able, wouldn’t it be nice for his DD to spend the night with him – it’s not something that he requests all the time – matter of fact – this was the very first time. There was no reason for her to say no other than to be a b*tch.

I don’t necessarily agree that the ex has the final say, this is a joint managing conservatorship – NOT sole managing conservatorship or sole custody. It’s his daughter just as much as it is hers and there’s no reason whatsoever why he shouldn’t be able to spend the time with her. You say “she can say no”…why can she say no – if that’s the case, then when she’s in our possession on the designated weekends, then we should be able to tell her mom no that she can’t pick her up – we’ll be keeping her. Do you see where I’m going? She has no more rights than my husband does when it comes to their DD.

Thanks for your advice too, but again – what was there to think about? It’s his DD and his time with her – and that’s it. I guess we were taking the position that we don’t ask to do this sort of thing ever and this one time shouldn’t have come to this – you say hubby demanding his way won’t get him anywhere – well why should she demand that he not see his DD and get her way? It’s a two way street here –

As far as my DH calling the ex to apologize - well that’s just not going to happen…and there’s nothing to apologize for - for wanting to spend time with his daughter?

I don’t agree that if we don’t like what ex says then we just have to do what the court order says – I just don’t believe that it works that way – I guess it’ll be back to court for this situation – I don’t agree that just because he doesn’t utilize the Tuesday visits (because of time constraints) that he should be punished either – if we had overnights on Tuesdays then the chances of us picking her up would increase tremendously – the time would be more feasible.

I don’t mean to sound ugly – or b*tchy, so if I do, please forgive me. My DH and I have been together for 10 years and I love his DD tremendously, I raised her every other weekend. Just a quick question, are you an ex wife and do your children reside with you? It didn’t seem your response was very unbiased – As a mother of 2 myself (with my husband), I can’t see myself ever denying my sons the right to spend time with their dad – no matter what my feelings for him were…if they lived with me – and he wanted to see them – bring it on – they’re his kids too and he’s got every right to spend as much time with them as I do.

 

[ktarra617]

we are in the same shoes but the fact of the matter is yes while they are joint managing conservators if mom chooses to do something else other than what dad wants her to do then she is well within her rights as the Custodial parent.

In absense of an agreement the custodial parent has the power to make the final decision.

She is well within her rights to tell your husband he can have 6-8 and that's it. the sad fact is that in Texas a mother does have more rights than a father. It is not spelled out in law but I guarantee you will find few judges who will question a mom just because dad doesn't like the way she does things.

I agree with you that the child is as much his as hers but that is not how the courts see it. All mom has to do is allow the time spelled out in the decree. If dad doesn't like it he can take her back to court but it will not look good that he hasn't utilized that time even for work reasons. The courts expect the dad to play a balancing game. He will have to work something out with work and start using that time.

It doesn't matter how you FEEL about the fact that the mother said no the bottom line is she does have the right to do so and there is not one thing you or your husband can do about it.

As for the school thing he needs to document document document, but it is doubtful that the court would make the child move schools again. They don't like to shuffle kids around.

and just so you know my experience with this comes from learning the hard way watching my husband fight to keep involved with his daughter.

good luck.

 

[lkshelton]

This is just so terribly sad to me – I can’t imagine why any one would want to keep their child from spending time with a parent – I mean, obviously, I can understand if there’s an abuse issue, etc…but outside of that – just to be a b*tch isn’t good enough. What is this doing to the DD who’s the one that asked her daddy to ask her mom if she could go? I mean there’s not any good reason for her to not be able to go – and I know it makes no difference what I feel about any of this…but it just kills me to see 2 people that I love dearly hurting because of one person’s immaturity and vendictiveness.

You know I think it’s funny that the courts want him to pay child support – so he finds a job – and then they penalize him for not being able to spend the specified time with her because he’s having to work to support her – it’s that viscious cycle….Plus explain this to me…if he gets home at 6:00 – and we live about 20-30 minutes from her house – so he gets to her at 6:30 – and then drives back to our side of town now it’s 7:00 – we have a whole 30 minutes with her? What is that worth? You can’t do anything in 30 minutes.

So what does your husband do? SEETH?

 

[dakoto70]

So

So you want to be able to dictate when he has his daughter? His decree says Tuesday 6-8 it is not the mothers fault he doesn't use his time when he is supposed to. And than he wants to get mad because she won't jump at the drop of a hat for him to have his daughter. He don't like it tell him to go back to court and change it. If tuesdays are a bad day than why not one other night during the week for HIS visitation? Gettingan attitude with the mother doesn't help anything. Now if he went to pick her up for his scheduled visitation and the mother denied him than he would have something to piss and moan about. ut she didn't do that she said he couoldn't have her over night and with that attitude I wouldn't have either. He could have been mad and just said ok I will call you by such and such a time to see what you think and left it at that, hung up the phone and pissed and moaned to you. Is she calling him every tuesday to see if he is going to use his visitation? His he calling her to let her know that he is not going to show up? Does the daughter know in advance daddy isn't going to be there when he is supposed to? Why can't he switch his hours? Some companies let you make up time?

Don't bad mouth the mother when you think it is ok for him to pick and choose when he sees the child anyway.

And yes I am both a CP and and NCP. SO I know how it goes. And i can't stand it when the CP for my husband plays these games.

 

[Boxcarbill]

Yes, I know, IAAL, another one of my treatise!

You have some personal issues with the his ex wife that will not serve your husband well.

Regarding the visitation schedule. Under Texas law the parent with visitations (regardless of whether called a joint managing conservator or a possessory--in other words your husband in this case) "shall have possession of the children at any and all times mutually agreed to in advance by the parties, and, in the absence of mutual agreement, it is ORDERED AND DECREED that (in this case your husband) shall have possession of the child under the specified terms set out in the following Possession Order."

Your husband's order states Tues from 6:OO p.m. until 8:00 p.m.-- failing a mutual agreement to the contrary. If you don't know what an agreement is then you cannot appreciate that adding the word "mutual" to "agreement" is a redundancy and obviously doesn't add any greater understanding for those who do not understand what constitute an agreement.

Next, regarding the move to a different school district. The Texas law provides:

§ 153.133. Agreement for Joint Managing Conservatorship

(a) If a written agreement of the parents is filed with the court, the court shall render an order appointing the parents as joint managing conservators only if the agreement:

(1) designates the conservator who has the exclusive right to establish the primary residence of the child and:

(A) establishes, until modified by further order, the geographic area within which the conservator shall maintain the child's primary residence; or

(B) specifies that the conservator may establish the child's primary residence without regard to geographic location;

So the divorce could be approved ONLY if ONE of the Parents has the EXCLUSIVE RIGHT TO ESTABLISH THE PRIMARY RESIDENCE.

As to he not having to surrender the child at the end of the period (or for that matter the mother not having to surrender the child at the beginning of the period of possession) Texas orders require that the General terms and Conditions shall be in all Texas decrees involving a child.

§ 153.316. General Terms and Conditions

The court shall order the following general terms and conditions of possession of a child to apply without regard to the distance between the residence of a parent and the child:



(1) the managing conservator shall surrender the child to the possessory conservator at the beginning of each period of the possessory conservator's possession at the residence of the managing conservator;



(2) if the possessory conservator elects to begin a period of possession at the time the child's school is regularly dismissed, the managing conservator shall surrender the child to the possessory conservator at the beginning of each period of possession at the school in which the child is enrolled;



(3) the possessory conservator shall be ordered to do one of the following:



(A) the possessory conservator shall surrender the child to the managing conservator at the end of each period of possession at the residence of the possessory conservator; or



(B) the possessory conservator shall return the child to the residence of the managing conservator at the end of each period of possession, except that the order shall provide that the possessory conservator shall surrender the child to the managing conservator at the end of each period of possession at the residence of the possessory conservator if:



(I) at the time the original order or a modification of an order establishing terms and conditions of possession or access the possessory conservator and the managing conservator lived in the same county, the possessory conservator's county of residence remains the same after the rendition of the order, and the managing conservator's county of residence changes, effective on the date of the change of residence by the managing conservator; or



(ii) the possessory conservator and managing conservator lived in the same residence at any time during a six-month period preceding the date on which a suit for dissolution of the marriage was filed and the possessory conservator's county of residence remains the same and the managing conservator's county of residence changes after they no longer live in the same residence, effective on the date the order is rendered;



(4) if the possessory conservator elects to end a period of possession at the time the child's school resumes, the possessory conservator shall surrender the child to the managing conservator at the end of each period of possession at the school in which the child is enrolled;



(5) each conservator shall return with the child the personal effects that the child brought at the beginning of the period of possession;



(6) either parent may designate a competent adult to pick up and return the child, as applicable; a parent or a designated competent adult shall be present when the child is picked up or returned;



(7) a parent shall give notice to the person in possession of the child on each occasion that the parent will be unable to exercise that parent's right of possession for a specified period;



(8) written notice shall be deemed to have been timely made if received or postmarked before or at the time that notice is due; and



(9) if a conservator's time of possession of a child ends at the time school resumes and for any reason the child is not or will not be returned to school, the conservator in possession of the child shall immediately notify the school and the other conservator that the child will not be or has not been returned to school.



Added by Acts 1995, 74th Leg., ch. 20, § 1, eff. April 20, 1995. Amended by Acts 1995, 74th Leg., ch. 751, § 37, eff. Sept. 1, 1995.

Amended by Acts 1997, 75th Leg., ch. 9, § 1, eff. Sept. 1, 1997.

 

[Tweety14]

Well, it is sad that he can't spend more time with his daughter. My son is in the same situation. From what I have seen so far is ex's like POWER &MONEY. Things will never change until true joint custody laws pass. Really, the only thing he can do is go back to court. Wonder how the CP would feel if the shoe was on the other foot. Both parents should be equal, not just one be the boss. Good luck

 

[Boxcarbill]

Both parents should be equal, not just one be the boss. Good luck

That is not possible in marriage and even less possible after divorce. But one ex-spouse telling the other ex-spouse that there is nothing to think about is comes across as attempting to boss. Negotiations skills require diplomacy and tact. One needs to decide exactly what is it one wants and then figure out what will produce that results. And my telling you "Dammit to hell you are going to take this million dollars if I have to ram it down your throat" is going to produce the results that you will dig your heels in and eat worms before you accept the million dollars.

 

[Tweety14]

That is not possible in marriage and even less possible after divorce. But one ex-spouse telling the other ex-spouse that there is nothing to think about is comes across as attempting to boss. Negotiations skills require diplomacy and tact. One needs to decide exactly what is it one wants and then figure out what will produce that results. And my telling you "Dammit to hell you are going to take this million dollars if I have to ram it down your throat" is going to produce the results that you will dig your heels in and eat worms before you accept the million dollars. [/QUOT
*******************

Lol boxcarbill, I never thought of it that way. I wish people could get along for their kids sake, but I guess it is not possible.

 

[JoandJa'smom]

"As far as my DH calling the ex to apologize - well that’s just not going to happen…and there’s nothing to apologize for - for wanting to spend time with his daughter? "

Well, then your DH will never get what he wants. Telling a parent there is nothing to think about will get him no where.

Oh, and it doesn't matter how you feel about what the court order says or it doesn't say. If your DH decides to keep the child and not return the child when his visitation time ends he will likely be held in contempt of court and may even possibly face kidnapping charges if he decides not to return the child at all. SO, your idea that because the court order doesn't say something means that it is ok is hogwash!

I live in Texas and am alos joint managing conservators w/my sons father. Texas allows in the standard possession order for the NCP to have one overnight during the middle of the week. However, it is obvious that your DH doesn't use the time he does have during the week so convincing a judge to give him overnight may be hard. Maybe he should look into changing nights that accomidate his work schedule so he can have DD and then when he uses his time he can ask the judge for overnight.


You really need to quit being mad at the mother over this. SHe was well w/in her rights to say no. If dad wants to get what he wants he shouold consider speaking to the mother in a adult manner. Treating her like crap won't win him a thing.

IN my experience when my sons father has called me to rearange something that is off the court order time he asks me nicely and when I do the same I ask nicely. It makes things so much nicer when people can try and get along for the childs sake. You should try and encourage your DH to get along w/his ex for the child. You cam blame the mom over this, but frankly if my son's father called me and did what yours did I would have told him no and hung up on him right then and there. Get over the mom cause if you don't it will just hurt things more.

JoandJa'smom