Do I have any legal recourse?

[TCool]

What is the name of your state (only U.S. law)? WI

Hi all,

I have a question regarding a couple issues (at least perceived as issues by me) I'm having with my ex. But, before I get to that, I'd like to first say thank you to all of the people here. It's been quite a few years since I've been active on these forums. I believe it's been about 7 years since I first came here with my story of how I wanted to move from north central WI to Madison to attend the University of Wisconsin. After getting beat up a bit by some veterans of the forums I got some pretty good advice, ended up with primary physical custody of my then 5 year old daughter (she's now 12), moved to Madison with her, and got my degree. So, for any of those still around, and any new people helping out others, thanks so much. The advice I got here helped me to accomplish something that had an enormous positive impact on mine and my daughter's lives. So, thanks!

All that being said, I now have another situation I'm hoping I can get some advice on. First, I'll start with some details of the custody agreement. Like I already said, I have primary physical custody--legal custody is joint. Per the custody agreement I get my daughter Monday through Friday and her mother gets her every Saturday and Sunday. However, for the past three or four years her mother has elected to take her maybe one weekend every two to three months, so she's been with me the vast majority of the time--mostly due to her very bad decision making skills (in my opinion) that has left her unable to help with any transportation most of the time (we live 160 miles apart). Additionally, her mother gets one full week every summer month (June, July, August) but many of the years I have sent my daughter to stay with her mother for most of the summer to make up for time she didn't take the rest of the year.

I'm not sure all (or even any) of that is relevant to my current issues, but figured I'd share in case.

So, issue #1: My ex is currently living with 3 other adults and the stories I'm hearing are starting to concern me. These three adults are very much pro-gun and are always carrying weapons (I'm generally pro-gun as well, so this isn't just me being afraid of guns). I have had concerns in the past about their lack of proper storage of these weapons as there are a few other small children in that same household (including a six year old). My concerns keep growing greater as I hear from my daughter, and talk to my ex, about how paranoid they are about being robbed/the impending zombie apocalypse (I really really hope they are joking about that part, but they act so serious about it). None of this had led me to considering legal action, but it did lead to me and my ex's own mother to plead with her to take gun safety more seriously, and to stop "playing army" (as my ex's mother put it). What is leading me now to start looking into any legal options (if I have any) is that the paranoia of one of the guys my ex is living with (her boyfriend) got to the point that he left a gun on the couch with my 12 year old daughter and told her to protect the apartment while he showered. What is worse, in my mind at least, is that there were also other children around, including the six year old I mentioned above. So, while I truly believe my daughter understands the seriousness of guns and wouldn't play with them, I am terrified of what would happen if another child who does not understand were to try to grab the gun.

I plan on having a conversation with my ex about this in the hopes she will come to her senses and keep our daughter and her other son (the 6 year old) out of that situation. However, I fully expect that she will be angry with me about even bringing this up and may even start leaving guns more exposed to the kids just to spite me (they believe nothing bad could possibly happen because they have "taught" the kids about guns). So, before I have a conversation with her I was hoping someone out there might have some legal (or even non-legal) advice for me. Do I have any legal options? The first thing that popped in my head was potentially a restraining order against the guy leaving guns with kids to protect an apartment (that is a restraining order to keep him away from my daughter). Given I know basically nothing about this stuff, I don't know if that is even possible. Anyone have any helpful thoughts on that?

Issue #2: Another guy my ex lives with (not the boyfriend) likes to tickle my daughter. My daughter has told this guy and her mother multiple times that she finds it inappropriate and he needs to stop. However, according to my daughter the guy refuses to stop. It bothers her so much that when her mother requested her for this weekend she came up with excuses for why she should be able to stay at my house. At what point does something like that become harassment? If it doesn't stop is there any legal action we can take there?

I'd also like to point out that I have no desire to take my daughter away from her mother. All I would like to do is protect my daughter. So, if anyone could help me with the following questions I would greatly appreciate it:
1. Do I have any legal options for the two issues above? (I realize I probably didn't give enough info, so please let me know if I need to give more).
2. Does anyone have any experience dealing with situations like this? Any advice on how to deal with this from a non-legal standpoint? Eg, how to approach my ex about this? Part of me wants to call her up, scream at her, and threaten legal action, but I'm guessing that would be a bad idea.
3. Am I overreacting to any of this? I don't think so, but all I hear from everyone around me is how horrible this is. Does anyone disagree?
4. If I need to, I plan on getting an attorney. One thing I'm afraid of is ending up with an attorney who feeds me BS on how strong of a case I have, and all the things I can get to go my way, just to try and get my business. It was actually someone on this forum that warned me of that in the past (forget who). So, what should I look for in a good lawyer?

Sorry for such the long post. And, thanks in advance to anyone who takes the time to read this.

Tim

 

[Proserpina]

First, to the gun issue. Most of the responses here will be opinion rather than legal, but since you asked...

Guns around kids with neither being supervised would be a huge problem for me. I agree that it's one thing to raise your child in an environment where gun-safety is made a priority, but another thing entirely to leave your kids to run around while there are guns sitting on the dining room table waiting for Paranoid Pete to hand over security duties to said children. I don't panic easily, and I'm probably one of the most foremost contenders in the "Laid Back Lucy" competition... so if I'm concerned, it's not too much of a reach to presume that people more...normal.. than I would also be concerned.

Tim, the more I'm reading your post, the less likely it seems that you're over-exaggerating. While I understand that several little issues can become a huge issue when taken as a whole, I'm just not convinced that you're over-worrying.

Standby though. There will be more responses.

 

[I'mTheFather]

I agree that you're not overreacting.

Please share WI law with your ex:

http://docs.legis.wisconsin.gov/statutes/statutes/948/60
948.60  Possession of a dangerous weapon by a person under 18.
948.55  Leaving or storing a loaded firearm within the reach or easy access of a child.

Also, let your ex know that if your daughter shares her feelings of discomfort with a teacher or doctor, a call to child protective services will be made by the mandated reporter.

Have you checked Wisconsin's sex offender registry for the roommate?

 

[single317dad]

The entire following post is personal opinion, with no legal advice.

I'm very pro-gun, but also very pro-gun safety. What these adults are doing is ridiculous. Guns aren't toys to hand to children.

The best advice I can offer is to take your daughter to a real gun safety course where she can learn the safe operation of all types of firearms, including, most importantly, how to safety or otherwise prevent them from being fired accidentally, and how to inspect a firearm to determine whether a shell is chambered. Being handy with a weapon when those around you lose their minds is also never a bad idea.

Never scream at the ex. Always be calm and rational.

The best quality you'll ever find in an attorney is someone who has tried and won the type of case you want to bring.

 

[TCool]

Guns around kids with neither being supervised would be a huge problem for me. I agree that it's one thing to raise your child in an environment where gun-safety is made a priority, but another thing entirely to leave your kids to run around while there are guns sitting on the dining room table waiting for Paranoid Pete to hand over security duties to said children.

I could not agree with you more. Thank you very much for your input!

http://docs.legis.wisconsin.gov/statutes/statutes/948/60
948.60  Possession of a dangerous weapon by a person under 18.
948.55  Leaving or storing a loaded firearm within the reach or easy access of a child.

Thanks! This is the exact type of information I was looking for (just didn't know where to look). I will definitely share this with her mother.

Also, let your ex know that if your daughter shares her feelings of discomfort with a teacher or doctor, a call to child protective services will be made by the mandated reporter.

That is a very good point, I did not think of that.

Have you checked Wisconsin's sex offender registry for the roommate?

Yes. Thankfully he is not in the registry.

The best advice I can offer is to take your daughter to a real gun safety course where she can learn the safe operation of all types of firearms, including, most importantly, how to safety or otherwise prevent them from being fired accidentally, and how to inspect a firearm to determine whether a shell is chambered. Being handy with a weapon when those around you lose their minds is also never a bad idea.

I agree 100% and was actually thinking this very same thing.

Never scream at the ex. Always be calm and rational.

Yeah, I know. It's taken me many years to master this. I've done good for the past 5 years or so, but I have to admit there have been a few times where I've not done so well at that.

I have to say, you guys are great! Thank you so much for the advice and opinions. I think this gives me what I need for talking with the ex, I've got a decent strategy (I think) starting to formulate in my mind.

I do have one more question however. If I hear from my daughter that this continues to occur what steps do I take? Do I call the police? Or, do I just go hire a lawyer right away?

Thanks,

Tim

 

[cheesecake46580]

Ok I'm a CASA and in my last semester of getting my social work degree. With that being said there are red flags waving all over. Un related males in the home making your daughter uncomfortable is a huge red flag and could lead to other things if not addressed. I would have already made a call to CPS myself over this and the gun issue. In my area if they feel necessary they will have a forensic interview done with the child and if anything else has happened other than the tickling she has reported will come out. I must ad these interviews are very kid friendly at least in my area. Also the gun issue is a huge safety concern as if one of the other children grabbed the gun and shot it, even though your daughter knows not to touch it lots of things could go wrong.

I would urge you to have a professional talk to you and your daughter about this guy more could come out than just what she has told you. I pray not!

Here is some information i used for a term paper please get your daughter evaluated by a professional asap! Here is the web page I got the following information from.
http://www.nsopw.gov/en/Education/FactsStatistics?AspxAutoDetectCookieSupport=1

Disclosure Among Victims back to top

Father having a serious conversation with young son
Not all sexually abused children exhibit symptoms—some estimate that up to 40% of sexually abused children are asymptomatic; however, others experience serious and long-standing consequences. 1
A common presumption is that children will give one detailed, clear account of abuse. This is not consistent with research; disclosures often unfold gradually and may be presented in a series of hints. Children might imply something has happened to them without directly stating they were sexually abused—they may be testing the reaction to their “hint.” 14
If they are ready, children may then follow with a larger hint if they think it will be handled well. 14
It is easy to miss hints of disclosure of abuse. As a result, a child may not receive the help needed. 14
Disclosure of sexual abuse is often delayed; children often avoid telling because they are either afraid of a negative reaction from their parents or of being harmed by the abuser. As such, they often delay disclosure until adulthood. 14
Males tend not to report their victimization, which may affect statistics. Some men even feel societal pressure to be proud of early sexual activity, regardless of whether it was unwanted. 1
Studies of adults suggest that factors such as the relationship to the perpetrator, age at first incident of abuse, use of physical force, severity of abuse, and demographic variables, such as gender and ethnicity, impact a child’s willingness to disclose abuse. 21
When children do disclose: 21
It is frequently to a friend or a sibling.
Of all other family members, mothers are most likely to be told. Whether or not a mother might be told will depend on the child’s expected response from the mother.
Few disclose abuse to authorities or professionals.
Of all professionals, teachers are the most likely to be told.
Historically, professionals promoted the idea that children frequently report false accounts of abuse. Current research, however, lacks systematic evidence that false allegations are common. Recantations of abuse are also uncommon. 21

 

[TCool]

Ok I'm a CASA and in my last semester of getting my social work degree. With that being said there are red flags waving all over. Un related males in the home making your daughter uncomfortable is a huge red flag and could lead to other things if not addressed. I would have already made a call to CPS myself over this and the gun issue. In my area if they feel necessary they will have a forensic interview done with the child and if anything else has happened other than the tickling she has reported will come out. I must ad these interviews are very kid friendly at least in my area. Also the gun issue is a huge safety concern as if one of the other children grabbed the gun and shot it, even though your daughter knows not to touch it lots of things could go wrong.

I would urge you to have a professional talk to you and your daughter about this guy more could come out than just what she has told you. I pray not!

Here is some information i used for a term paper please get your daughter evaluated by a professional asap! Here is the web page I got the following information from.
http://www.nsopw.gov/en/Education/FactsStatistics?AspxAutoDetectCookieSupport=1

Disclosure Among Victims back to top

Father having a serious conversation with young son
Not all sexually abused children exhibit symptoms—some estimate that up to 40% of sexually abused children are asymptomatic; however, others experience serious and long-standing consequences. 1
A common presumption is that children will give one detailed, clear account of abuse. This is not consistent with research; disclosures often unfold gradually and may be presented in a series of hints. Children might imply something has happened to them without directly stating they were sexually abused—they may be testing the reaction to their “hint.” 14
If they are ready, children may then follow with a larger hint if they think it will be handled well. 14
It is easy to miss hints of disclosure of abuse. As a result, a child may not receive the help needed. 14
Disclosure of sexual abuse is often delayed; children often avoid telling because they are either afraid of a negative reaction from their parents or of being harmed by the abuser. As such, they often delay disclosure until adulthood. 14
Males tend not to report their victimization, which may affect statistics. Some men even feel societal pressure to be proud of early sexual activity, regardless of whether it was unwanted. 1
Studies of adults suggest that factors such as the relationship to the perpetrator, age at first incident of abuse, use of physical force, severity of abuse, and demographic variables, such as gender and ethnicity, impact a child’s willingness to disclose abuse. 21
When children do disclose: 21
It is frequently to a friend or a sibling.
Of all other family members, mothers are most likely to be told. Whether or not a mother might be told will depend on the child’s expected response from the mother.
Few disclose abuse to authorities or professionals.
Of all professionals, teachers are the most likely to be told.
Historically, professionals promoted the idea that children frequently report false accounts of abuse. Current research, however, lacks systematic evidence that false allegations are common. Recantations of abuse are also uncommon. 21

Well, that's a tad scary and gives me a lot to think about. Thanks for the advice.

Tim

 

[stealth2]

When in a vaguely similar situation, I did exactly what singledad suggested and enrolled them in a gun safety class at our local gun club. (Note, I am not anti-gun, hunting, etc. I AM anti-stupidity...) Unfortunately, the law guardian didn't seem to feel the situation was a big deal. So, it's best to be proactive as a parent, IMO.

 

[TCool]

Well, I had a conversation (through text messages, so all is documented) with my ex. After her initial freak out/blow up moment and accusing our daughter of lying, she finally admitted that the gun incident did happen. She says she will not let it happen again because she doesn't want me to take our daughter away from her (as if I can just snap my fingers and make that happen). It's unfortunate that she doesn't see the problem with what happened, but hopefully her fear of my apparent legal super powers will keep her from letting this happen again. I did make it very clear to her that if I continue to hear that guns are being left with the children that I will take action (not really sure what that action would be at the moment, calling CPS maybe?). I shared the WI statute and pointed out the felony part. I believe in the state of WI felons lose their firearms, so I'm hoping that will scare this guy into taking better care of his guns.

It's really quite mind boggling the way people like her rationalize this stuff. She acts more immature than our daughter does. Some of her first responses to explaining my concerns were things like "U KNOW ....dramatizes things so maybe u shoulda came to me and talked before all this" (I thought that was what I was doing, but ok). And, "U lost faith cuz a 12yr old moody preteen exaggerated r u kidding me!!!!"
"maybe us hd ask **** before just assuming that miss ..... is getting her facts right."

... is my daughter by the way. After I called out the ex for blaming our daughter and calling her a liar she says this "Yeah i am sure the gun sitting by her wss true" (wss = was) followed by this whopper almost immediately after "Wr have safes and locked drawers. We dont have guns just laying around everywhere" (wr is "we" I'm pretty sure). She actually admitted a second time that her boyfriend left a gun by my daughter "probably knowing she wouldn't touch it" but it's ok because the other kids won't touch them either because "we taught them kids not to and they no better and none of them have any desire because they know the rules and they listen." The conversation then moved on to me somehow stopping her from seeing her daughter more often, I guess because I'm no longer calling her and harassing her about exercising her custody rights on the weekends. I now just plan as if my daughter will stay with me and if her mother calls to request her for the weekend make arrangements to make it happen (which has included quite a few times of me driving 320 miles round trip to drop her off and then 320 miles round trip to pick her up). There may have been a few (perhaps more than a few) moments of me hitting my head against the table in disgust during that conversation. Good news though is I somehow was able to keep my cool and not blow up at her. The benefit of discussing it through text messages I guess, not sure I could've kept cool having this conversation in person.

Now that my venting about that part is over, I suppose I'll move on to the second issue. The good thing is I got a whole heck of a lot less push back from the ex on the roommate tickling thing. She basically said she agrees it is inappropriate and is going to talk to the guy. If it's just harmless tickling I'm satisfied with that. But, given cheesecake46580's post about this I'm hoping to have more conversation regarding this one. So, cheesecake46580, if you're still out there I'd love more input from you.

I was thinking about it and I really see no signs to make me believe that it was more than that. But, then again, I believe part of your point is that you don't necessarily see any signs in these situations. That being said, I would think if I'm looking hard for signs I would see something, right? There was no sign of fear about seeing this guy, more of just a general annoyance with him. You know how teen girls are right? More like "ugh.. why do I have to go to moms. Shannon (the roommate) is like soooo totally annoying." Given how sensitive my daughter is (she once cried because I thought she swore and I laughed and said "what did you just say?") I would think she would show some sort of emotion (like fear) if there were more to it than that.

What do you think? I'm very hesitant to go to CPS at this point as I think it would be extremely hard on my daughter. But, I realize if there is more to this tickling thing it is well worth it. I suppose I'm not quite convinced yet, and given the level of damage I think the CPS thing could do to my daughter I'd prefer not to just rush into something like that. I was thinking maybe talking to a counselor at her school to see if they'd have a chat with her. I'd imagine they're probably better at spotting things to worry about in this situation than I would be, and if they see something to be concerned about I would think they would immediately contact CPS (or at the very least inform me of the concern). Good idea or bad idea?

Again, thanks all for the advice. It means a lot. And, stealth, it's nice to see you still around. You probably don't remember, but you were one of the ones who beat me up pretty good when I first came here, thanks! You'll be happy to know that I read through some of what I wrote and cringed a little. I think I've matured a bit since then. lol

 

[I'mTheFather]

Well, I had a conversation (through text messages, so all is documented) with my ex. After her initial freak out/blow up moment and accusing our daughter of lying, she finally admitted that the gun incident did happen. She says she will not let it happen again because she doesn't want me to take our daughter away from her (as if I can just snap my fingers and make that happen). It's unfortunate that she doesn't see the problem with what happened, but hopefully her fear of my apparent legal super powers will keep her from letting this happen again. I did make it very clear to her that if I continue to hear that guns are being left with the children that I will take action (not really sure what that action would be at the moment, calling CPS maybe?). I shared the WI statute and pointed out the felony part. I believe in the state of WI felons lose their firearms, so I'm hoping that will scare this guy into taking better care of his guns.

It's really quite mind boggling the way people like her rationalize this stuff. She acts more immature than our daughter does. Some of her first responses to explaining my concerns were things like...[/I]" (I thought that was what I was doing, but ok). And, "..."
"..."

... is my daughter by the way. After I called out the ex for blaming our daughter and calling her a liar she says this "..." (wss = was) followed by this whopper almost immediately after "..." (wr is "we" I'm pretty sure). She actually admitted a second time that her boyfriend left a gun by my daughter "..." but it's ok because the other kids won't touch them either because "..." The conversation then moved on to me somehow stopping her from seeing her daughter more often, I guess because I'm no longer calling her and harassing her about exercising her custody rights on the weekends. I now just plan as if my daughter will stay with me and if her mother calls to request her for the weekend make arrangements to make it happen (which has included quite a few times of me driving 320 miles round trip to drop her off and then 320 miles round trip to pick her up). There may have been a few (perhaps more than a few) moments of me hitting my head against the table in disgust during that conversation. Good news though is I somehow was able to keep my cool and not blow up at her. The benefit of discussing it through text messages I guess, not sure I could've kept cool having this conversation in person.

Now that my venting about that part is over, I suppose I'll move on to the second issue. The good thing is I got a whole heck of a lot less push back from the ex on the roommate tickling thing. She basically said she agrees it is inappropriate and is going to talk to the guy. If it's just harmless tickling I'm satisfied with that. But, given cheesecake46580's post about this I'm hoping to have more conversation regarding this one. So, cheesecake46580, if you're still out there I'd love more input from you.

I was thinking about it and I really see no signs to make me believe that it was more than that. But, then again, I believe part of your point is that you don't necessarily see any signs in these situations. That being said, I would think if I'm looking hard for signs I would see something, right? There was no sign of fear about seeing this guy, more of just a general annoyance with him. You know how teen girls are right? More like "ugh.. why do I have to go to moms. S (the roommate) is like soooo totally annoying." Given how sensitive my daughter is (she once cried because I thought she swore and I laughed and said "what did you just say?") I would think she would show some sort of emotion (like fear) if there were more to it than that.

What do you think? I'm very hesitant to go to CPS at this point as I think it would be extremely hard on my daughter. But, I realize if there is more to this tickling thing it is well worth it. I suppose I'm not quite convinced yet, and given the level of damage I think the CPS thing could do to my daughter I'd prefer not to just rush into something like that. I was thinking maybe talking to a counselor at her school to see if they'd have a chat with her. I'd imagine they're probably better at spotting things to worry about in this situation than I would be, and if they see something to be concerned about I would think they would immediately contact CPS (or at the very least inform me of the concern). Good idea or bad idea?

Again, thanks all for the advice. It means a lot. And, stealth, it's nice to see you still around. You probably don't remember, but you were one of the ones who beat me up pretty good when I first came here, thanks! You'll be happy to know that I read through some of what I wrote and cringed a little. I think I've matured a bit since then. lol

I don't think it's a good idea to include transcripts of your texts with the ex, so I reported your post. I wouldn't include your daughter's name either. The moderator may repost it, so if you really think it's wise, let it be. If you think not, then edit it if it goes back up.

 

[TCool]

I don't think it's a good idea to include transcripts of your texts with the ex, so I reported your post. I wouldn't include your daughter's name either. The moderator may repost it, so if you really think it's wise, let it be. If you think not, then edit it if it goes back up.

I'm curious why it would be a bad idea to post snippets of the texts. I guess, part of it was a little venting, but also I was thinking if there is something in those that I could be legally useful it would be good for it to be pointed out. That being said, I don't want to totally derail this conversation, so if it's a bad idea to include that stuff then so be it, I'll be a bit more careful. If there are some rules I missed and violated, I apologize.

I am still curious on cheesecake's take on the tickling issue part of my last post if they are still willing to give it.

Thanks,

Tim

 

[I'mTheFather]

I'm curious why it would be a bad idea to post snippets of the texts. I guess, part of it was a little venting, but also I was thinking if there is something in those that I could be legally useful it would be good for it to be pointed out. That being said, I don't want to totally derail this conversation, so if it's a bad idea to include that stuff then so be it, I'll be a bit more careful. If there are some rules I missed and violated, I apologize.

You didn't violate any rules, but including exact quotes of the texts and names makes it easy to identify you if your ex is interested. Plus, you've been a little disparaging about your ex, not without reason, and that could tick off a judge. In my opinion, there was nothing in the texts that would help you in court.

I am still curious on cheesecake's take on the tickling issue part of my last post if they are still willing to give it.

Thanks,

Tim

When cheesecake comes back, I'm sure she'll respond. In the meantime, have you had another talk with your daughter about the tickling? Gently ask if there's anything else he does that makes her uncomfortable? Let her know that her mom agrees it's inappropriate and will speak to the roommate?

 

[TCool]

You didn't violate any rules, but including exact quotes of the texts and names makes it easy to identify you if your ex is interested. Plus, you've been a little disparaging about your ex, not without reason, and that could tick off a judge. In my opinion, there was nothing in the texts that would help you in court.

Gotcha, thanks.

When cheesecake comes back, I'm sure she'll respond. In the meantime, have you had another talk with your daughter about the tickling? Gently ask if there's anything else he does that makes her uncomfortable? Let her know that her mom agrees it's inappropriate and will speak to the roommate?

I have not. My ex contacted our daughter and had her convinced that I was just trying to come up with excuses to keep them from seeing each other. My daughter was pretty upset this morning about that, so I'm thinking it might be best to let her be for a while. From previous chats with her mother I got the impression that her mother has no plans of taking her any weekends for the next month, so I should have time to let her settle down a bit and still chat with her about it before the next time she spends time at her moms house.

 

[SESmama]

I don't think it's a good idea to include transcripts of your texts with the ex, so I reported your post. I wouldn't include your daughter's name either. The moderator may repost it, so if you really think it's wise, let it be. If you think not, then edit it if it goes back up.

Curious as to why you quoted his post then showing the texts you reported?

 

[TCool]

Curious as to why you quoted his post then showing the texts you reported?

He edited out the texts for me. I think he has a valid point. It's perhaps a bit more cautious than I felt I needed to be, then again I've never stepped foot in a court room for any sort of custody hearing. So, perhaps I just don't fully understand how cautious I need to be.