Does Right of First Refusal still apply if my daughters control visitation?

[Rae Jae]

Hi there. I'm in Idaho, and have had my custody agreement modified due to abuse issues between my ex and my daughters. My teenage daughters (ages 13 and 15) control whether they want to see their dad, he cannot force them to visit. But he's still claiming the First Right of Refusal in Appendix A applies if I go away for the weekend to meet my soon to be new in-laws and leave my girls with my mother. They do not want to stay with him if I go, and I am now worried that the new order doesn't basically eliminate Right of First Refusal by stating my daughters cannot be forced to stay with him.

 

[Proserpina]

Hi there. I'm in Idaho, and have had my custody agreement modified due to abuse issues between my ex and my daughters. My teenage daughters (ages 13 and 15) control whether they want to see their dad, he cannot force them to visit. But he's still claiming the First Right of Refusal in Appendix A applies if I go away for the weekend to meet my soon to be new in-laws and leave my girls with my mother. They do not want to stay with him if I go, and I am now worried that the new order doesn't basically eliminate Right of First Refusal by stating my daughters cannot be forced to stay with him.

Okay. The most recent order controls. Can you tell us word for word what it says (minus names)? My initial thought is that ROFR would not apply because of the unusual terms of your order, but let's see what it says.

 

[Rae Jae]

It states :

He has on duty parenting time from Friday after school until Sunday at 7pm, that the holiday schedule remains in effect. That the children shall not be forced to go with him for his on duty parenting time and if at any time during a visit they wish to return to my residence they must be allowed to do so. That Appendix A shall be applied insofar as the same may be applied and still give full force and effect thereto. The child support order remains unchanged. The Right of First Refusal is not mentioned once in the modified order in any way, and is not mentioned at all in Appendix A. He's trying to say I'm violating the order by not taking the children to him if I need someone to care for them in my absence (which has happened once since the modification) but the kids don't want to go with him, and our order states they can't be forced. He claims that since the new order doesn't state that Right of First Refusal no longer applies that it's still enforceable, even though it contradicts what the judge ordered, which is the kids choosing if they see him or not. I'm going in tomorrow to see about a Request for Clarification, so there will be no doubt.

 

[stealth2]

What brought about such a bizarre custody order? Why would you agree to it?

 

[LdiJ]

What brought about such a bizarre custody order? Why would you agree to it?

Hi there. I'm in Idaho, and have had my custody agreement modified due to abuse issues between my ex and my daughters

It does not sound like is was an agreed order.

 

[LdiJ]

Hi there. I'm in Idaho, and have had my custody agreement modified due to abuse issues between my ex and my daughters. My teenage daughters (ages 13 and 15) control whether they want to see their dad, he cannot force them to visit. But he's still claiming the First Right of Refusal in Appendix A applies if I go away for the weekend to meet my soon to be new in-laws and leave my girls with my mother. They do not want to stay with him if I go, and I am now worried that the new order doesn't basically eliminate Right of First Refusal by stating my daughters cannot be forced to stay with him.

In my opinion right of first refusal no longer applies since the children are permitted to choose whether or not they see their father. I feel strongly enough about it that if I were in your shoes I would let dad attempt to take me to court for contempt rather than worry about clarifying the order.

 

[stealth2]

It does not sound like is was an agreed order.

Somehow missed the abuse part. Mea culpa.

 

[Rae Jae]

The original order was made at our divorce. He was violent, abusive and negligent and my daughters we repeatedly begging not to go see him anymore. I told him, asked him to let the children skip a few weekends, and he flew off the handle and threatened me, and began threatening my daughters through text. I filed to modify the order based on the saved text messages and my daughters wishes to not be forced to go anymore. We were granted a protection order so he couldn't take the kids while we waited for our court date. The judge quickly granted my request, and my daughters now get to decide when and if they want to see him, which is almost never. He's a narcissist and doesn't like the lack of control he has, so he keeps crying ROFR, saying it still applies because the new order doesn't spell out that it doesn't apply. I approve of the new order, it protects my daughters, but the ROFR part needs to be spelled out for him apparently. He won't ever assume that the new arrangement eliminated it, because that takes away even more control from him. I'm headed to the courthouse soon to see about a Motion to Clarify, or whatever the wording is. I just want to make sure I get to live my life with my fiancé and daughters without him trying to control our lives.

Things have to be spelled out for this man, and he will not stop claiming he has ROFR over two teens that are allowed to make the choice about seeing him or not. It's incredibly exhausting, and I'm tired of going to court every couple of years because he just has to rock the boat. It's never once worked well for him in court, 13 years of judges putting him in his place. I just sit back and continue to follow the rules and take care of my girls. But 13 years of this is taking it's toll on us.

 

[LdiJ]

The original order was made at our divorce. He was violent, abusive and negligent and my daughters we repeatedly begging not to go see him anymore. I told him, asked him to let the children skip a few weekends, and he flew off the handle and threatened me, and began threatening my daughters through text. I filed to modify the order based on the saved text messages and my daughters wishes to not be forced to go anymore. We were granted a protection order so he couldn't take the kids while we waited for our court date. The judge quickly granted my request, and my daughters now get to decide when and if they want to see him, which is almost never. He's a narcissist and doesn't like the lack of control he has, so he keeps crying ROFR, saying it still applies because the new order doesn't spell out that it doesn't apply. I approve of the new order, it protects my daughters, but the ROFR part needs to be spelled out for him apparently. He won't ever assume that the new arrangement eliminated it, because that takes away even more control from him. I'm headed to the courthouse soon to see about a Motion to Clarify, or whatever the wording is. I just want to make sure I get to live my life with my fiancé and daughters without him trying to control our lives.

Things have to be spelled out for this man, and he will not stop claiming he has ROFR over two teens that are allowed to make the choice about seeing him or not. It's incredibly exhausting, and I'm tired of going to court every couple of years because he just has to rock the boat. It's never once worked well for him in court, 13 years of judges putting him in his place. I just sit back and continue to follow the rules and take care of my girls. But 13 years of this is taking it's toll on us.

Please understand that he can only control your lives if you allow him to control your lives. The girls have the right to choose not to see him and they have chosen. The ROFR no longer applies.

He is controlling your life because you are allowing him to do so. Filing a motion to clarify the order is letting him control you. Stop letting him yank your chain and just tell him NO and then refuse to discuss it any longer. Do not even talk to him on the phone or reply to his emails. Let HIM take you to court for contempt if he really believes that ROFR still applies, and let the judge rip him a new one for being such an idiot. In fact, you might even get the judge to order that he pay YOUR attorney fees if you let him be the one to take it to court (assuming he is that stupid).

If you file for the clarification then YOU will be the one taking something foolish to court. Do not do it. Let him be the one.

 

[Rae Jae]

The last thing I want to do is be in court again. God knows he's wasted enough of the courts time, and my time as well over the last 13 years. He refuses to listen to reason or believe anything until it's written in a court order. That's part of the reason I thought clarification would be good....he'd have it in writing that ROFR no longer applies. A reasonable person would know it based on the new order being in place. But he's never reasonable. I don't want to be in court on contempt charges. But if he did try I know I most likely wouldn't be charged with anything. He'd have to be able to prove that I knowingly violated a clear order, right? Nothing in the modification says a single thing about ROFR.

 

[LdiJ]

The last thing I want to do is be in court again. God knows he's wasted enough of the courts time, and my time as well over the last 13 years. He refuses to listen to reason or believe anything until it's written in a court order. That's part of the reason I thought clarification would be good....he'd have it in writing that ROFR no longer applies. A reasonable person would know it based on the new order being in place. But he's never reasonable. I don't want to be in court on contempt charges. But if he did try I know I most likely wouldn't be charged with anything. He'd have to be able to prove that I knowingly violated a clear order, right? Nothing in the modification says a single thing about ROFR.

If you hate being in court do not be the one to initiate it. Hopefully either he will realize or his attorney will tell him that if the girls get to choose whether or not to see him that means that ROFR no longer applies...that he cannot do an end run around ROFR to force the girls to see him.

I really doubt that you will end up in court at all if you do not initiate it, because he honestly cannot be THAT delusional...and if he has an attorney his attorney is very unlikely to even allow him to do that. It would make the attorney look bad to the judge.

You really need to learn to walk away from him, mentally and emotionally. I can tell by everything that you are saying that he is still controlling you and pushing your buttons. He is still able to scare you and that should be long gone by now...13 years later.

 

[Proserpina]

I'm in complete agreement here with LdiJ here but I think he is going in a specific direction which is that ROFR is not actually "duty parenting time", and hence the girls' wishes do not apply.

I don't think that's the courts intent, and I seriously doubt Mom will be in any trouble if Dad is stupid enough to take this back to court. If anything, if Dad does initiate it, Mom should ask for clarification and that will make the court's intention very clear.

This a very unusual situation, to be sure, and I don't think the victims should be forced to become victims again and I doubt the court would disagree with me.

 

[Rae Jae]

I appreciate the input. I spoke to an attorney today, and what I was told was that there's a chance that he technically may have ROFR, but that falls under on duty parenting time, and he only gets on duty parenting time if the girls choose to allow it, and choose to see him. The advice was if I need to leave the girls with a caregiver that I should tell him (text or email) that I am notifying him of his ROFR and that I am also notifying him of the girls desire to not go with him. It sounds like a circle.....he may have the right to take them, but the children have the right to say no which nullifies his right to take them. It sounds like even if he tries to file contempt charges they would never stick, and he could end up with my court costs as well. Hopefully it will never come to that.