Failure to give prescribed medication

[killerzoey]

What is the name of your state (only U.S. law)? Hawaii

Shared legal/physical custody, 3.5 yo and 6 yo daughters.
Question involves youngest.

Crux of my question is what do I do about a slippery ex who is probably almost never giving our daughter her prescribed asthma meds, but who just dodges the issue? Also, what do I do about him not keeping me informed about medical visits while in his care?

Asthmatic 3.5 yo daughter has been prescribed FloVent 2 puffs twice a day. That is the preventative medication. She is also prescribed Albuterol as needed, if she becomes symptomatic. Both "puff puff" meds (as we call them) are given the same exact way.

Ex has one year hx of failing to giving daughter her preventative asthma meds. I thought he was doing so after her major attack last March that had her hospitalized for 4 days. A few months later I found out he hadn't been. It was time to reorder the prev. meds and his counter was still on 120 doses. He feigned surprise, said his dispenser must not have been working. I asked him to bring it to me. He handed it to me, I pressed the cartridge down, dose counter clicked to 119. Hmmm. I bought it then, which now seems ridiculous. Soon it was evident that this was, to him, a cat and mouse game. Particularly if she is sick, I would remind him up front at the exchange that she very much needs her FloVent. He would say he's going to give it to her. Later I would ask him, and he would tell me he didn't. When I asked why, he would say, "She seemed fine." Then I would remind him once again what preventative meds are for, and he would seem to understand. Next time I hand her over I remind him to give her the meds, whole cycle repeats. Over and over.

He stalled a long time by acting like he didn't understand the meds. I have e-mails where I just reminded him him the basics (same stuff as is on the prescription) and others where (after he STILL seemed baffled by what he was supposed to be doing) I typed out all the information he could possibly need to know. You can imagine the frustration when he pretends the information is all new to him each time. I begged him to see the ashtma specialist at Kaiser, as I had done after our daughter was diagnosed. He had refused to go. He still does, when asked...suddenly claiming to understand everything. And later showing just how out there he is by saying things like this (in defense of his choice to withold her prev. meds): "I know she doesn't have asthma because she has bronchitis. I know she has bronchitis because that's what I have and she gave it to me."

I told him he needs to be honest with me, that I had no interest in playing a game involving our daughter's health. He finally admitted that he in fact never had intended to give her the meds. And yet promised once again to do so anyway.

He swore up and down, acted henpecked and like I "won" (his shtick). This was recently. Then, as allowed in the decree he took this daughter to visit his family back in our home state over spring break. They just got back tonight. While giving her "puff puff" tonight I asked our daughter, "Did you get puff puff in California?" She said no. I said "Did you puff puff at ALL in California?" She said no. I asked a few different ways just to make sure. Now, she has told me affirmative a few times in the past (ex has a few times given Albuterol WHEN she became symptomatic AND she asked for it). Knowing her as I do I am quite convinced that she would remember having gotten it at all in a week's time. She is very smart, observant, and able to communicate. She said "No, because I forgot to tell him I needed it." That about broke my heart.

What is even worse is that her trigger has always been a respiratory virus. She was sick enough this trip to go to Urgent Care. I found this out kind of in passing...he didn't share this with me up front. I guess she went a few days ago. And even with this, he didn't give (and historically hasn't given) her preventative meds.

And, ironically, when medical issues ARE dealt with while children are in his care, he seems to have this knee-jerk reaction of wanting to keep it a secret. Last time he had her in California I found out later this daughter made a trip to Urgent Care. Though I asked him via e-mail on more than one occasion to tell me what happened and why she was there and whether he had shared this info with her pediatrician, he has remained mute on the subject. She has Kaiser insurance. He didn't even contact me to ask me where I take them while in California, which I've had to do before. This is probably because it's actually his mom who does the taking. He has never voluntarily taken a sick child to the doctor. He openly admitted his mom took her the previous time, and that is all I got out of him. But I assume he has access to the information. I don't even know where she went. I am sure it was his mom again this time. At the airport tonight he handed me her prescription and said "She probably doesn't need to take any more of this. She's fine now." It was an antibiotic, which she is supposed to take twice a day for ten days. She is three days into it.

Sorry, I'm bleary-eyed and not organizing my thoughts very succinctly. But I need guidance on how to address this, especially his slipperiness and failure to give meds. I cannot afford to retain a lawyer. But I need to act on this. No more.

 

[LdiJ]

What is the name of your state (only U.S. law)? Hawaii

Shared legal/physical custody, 3.5 yo and 6 yo daughters.
Question involves youngest.

Crux of my question is what do I do about a slippery ex who is probably almost never giving our daughter her prescribed asthma meds, but who just dodges the issue? Also, what do I do about him not keeping me informed about medical visits while in his care?

Asthmatic 3.5 yo daughter has been prescribed FloVent 2 puffs twice a day. That is the preventative medication. She is also prescribed Albuterol as needed, if she becomes symptomatic. Both "puff puff" meds (as we call them) are given the same exact way.

Ex has one year hx of failing to giving daughter her preventative asthma meds. I thought he was doing so after her major attack last March that had her hospitalized for 4 days. A few months later I found out he hadn't been. It was time to reorder the prev. meds and his counter was still on 120 doses. He feigned surprise, said his dispenser must not have been working. I asked him to bring it to me. He handed it to me, I pressed the cartridge down, dose counter clicked to 119. Hmmm. I bought it then, which now seems ridiculous. Soon it was evident that this was, to him, a cat and mouse game. Particularly if she is sick, I would remind him up front at the exchange that she very much needs her FloVent. He would say he's going to give it to her. Later I would ask him, and he would tell me he didn't. When I asked why, he would say, "She seemed fine." Then I would remind him once again what preventative meds are for, and he would seem to understand. Next time I hand her over I remind him to give her the meds, whole cycle repeats. Over and over.

He stalled a long time by acting like he didn't understand the meds. I have e-mails where I just reminded him him the basics (same stuff as is on the prescription) and others where (after he STILL seemed baffled by what he was supposed to be doing) I typed out all the information he could possibly need to know. You can imagine the frustration when he pretends the information is all new to him each time. I begged him to see the ashtma specialist at Kaiser, as I had done after our daughter was diagnosed. He had refused to go. He still does, when asked...suddenly claiming to understand everything. And later showing just how out there he is by saying things like this (in defense of his choice to withold her prev. meds): "I know she doesn't have asthma because she has bronchitis. I know she has bronchitis because that's what I have and she gave it to me."

I told him he needs to be honest with me, that I had no interest in playing a game involving our daughter's health. He finally admitted that he in fact never had intended to give her the meds. And yet promised once again to do so anyway.

He swore up and down, acted henpecked and like I "won" (his shtick). This was recently. Then, as allowed in the decree he took this daughter to visit his family back in our home state over spring break. They just got back tonight. While giving her "puff puff" tonight I asked our daughter, "Did you get puff puff in California?" She said no. I said "Did you puff puff at ALL in California?" She said no. I asked a few different ways just to make sure. Now, she has told me affirmative a few times in the past (ex has a few times given Albuterol WHEN she became symptomatic AND she asked for it). Knowing her as I do I am quite convinced that she would remember having gotten it at all in a week's time. She is very smart, observant, and able to communicate. She said "No, because I forgot to tell him I needed it." That about broke my heart.

What is even worse is that her trigger has always been a respiratory virus. She was sick enough this trip to go to Urgent Care. I found this out kind of in passing...he didn't share this with me up front. I guess she went a few days ago. And even with this, he didn't give (and historically hasn't given) her preventative meds.

And, ironically, when medical issues ARE dealt with while children are in his care, he seems to have this knee-jerk reaction of wanting to keep it a secret. Last time he had her in California I found out later this daughter made a trip to Urgent Care. Though I asked him via e-mail on more than one occasion to tell me what happened and why she was there and whether he had shared this info with her pediatrician, he has remained mute on the subject. She has Kaiser insurance. He didn't even contact me to ask me where I take them while in California, which I've had to do before. This is probably because it's actually his mom who does the taking. He has never voluntarily taken a sick child to the doctor. He openly admitted his mom took her the previous time, and that is all I got out of him. But I assume he has access to the information. I don't even know where she went. I am sure it was his mom again this time. At the airport tonight he handed me her prescription and said "She probably doesn't need to take any more of this. She's fine now." It was an antibiotic, which she is supposed to take twice a day for ten days. She is three days into it.

Sorry, I'm bleary-eyed and not organizing my thoughts very succinctly. But I need guidance on how to address this, especially his slipperiness and failure to give meds. I cannot afford to retain a lawyer. But I need to act on this. No more.

You need a doctor to give dad a very firm talking to about the importance of completing a prescription of antibiotics and the importance of using her preventative meds. I cannot believe that in this day and age that ANYONE doesn't understand the importance of finishing an antibiotic.

If that doesn't work or is impossible, then your only choice is to take it to court and let the judge make orders.

Do you know WHY dad is being this way?

 

[Isis1]

You need a doctor to give dad a very firm talking to about the importance of completing a prescription of antibiotics and the importance of using her preventative meds. I cannot believe that in this day and age that ANYONE doesn't understand the importance of finishing an antibiotic.

If that doesn't work or is impossible, then your only choice is to take it to court and let the judge make orders.

Do you know WHY dad is being this way?

honestly? this reads like the father of my two boys. i sincerely think it's a learning disability of some sort. he cannot retain that type of information. no matter who says it, who tells him. i get the same "lip service". nodding of the head....say "yes, i understand", the sputtering, the excuses. dad may need something simpler to understand. i never listened to the ex about meds, i always called the doctor to get the directions. i learned my lesson.

 

[mdprater1969]

I think he is one of these parents who thinks the need for medication is exaggerated and unnecessary. It lamost seems as if he is using it as a game with you, sadly at the risk of your daughter's health. I think the best thing for you to do is to revisit the visitation order and address these issues. This could be a form of abuse or neglect on his part.

 

[kaizen]

I wonder about the effectiveness of a court order. We have one. It says my son is to be given his meds every day.

His father "forgets".

So my question is even if the OP got a court order, or in my case of having a court order....how is really enforceable?

 

[Banned_Princess]

Why cant your 6 year old remind dad when its time to take her "puff puff" and is there some reason she cant take her preventative meds by herself?

does she at least know how to use her albuteral during an asmah (sic) attack? does she keep the albuteral emergency inhaler with her?

 

[Ladyback1]

Why cant your 6 year old remind dad when its time to take her "puff puff" and is there some reason she cant take her preventative meds by herself?

does she at least know how to use her albuteral during an asmah (sic) attack? does she keep the albuteral emergency inhaler with her?

I read it as the 3.5 y/o was the child who needed meds...

 

[Banned_Princess]

I read it as the 3.5 y/o was the child who needed meds...

oh yes, my mistake, when I looked back at the age of the "youngest" after reading the post, I guess I automatically assumed the oldest would be listed first, and the youngest second..


thank you for pointing that out.

 

[killerzoey]

You need a doctor to give dad a very firm talking to about the importance of completing a prescription of antibiotics and the importance of using her preventative meds. I cannot believe that in this day and age that ANYONE doesn't understand the importance of finishing an antibiotic.

If that doesn't work or is impossible, then your only choice is to take it to court and let the judge make orders.

Do you know WHY dad is being this way?

Thank you for your input. What you wrote makes sense. The issue is that this man thinks he knows much better than doctors. He will nod and pretend to agree. He says almost nothing, but gives the impression he's on board. He then does whatever he wants. When truly cornered about this he will let himself express things that made me realize that he really does think he is almost supernaturally in tune with what all beings need. Not like doctors. That kind of delusion. Meanwhile he does not even notice a sick child in his midst.

You can probably see now why Dad feels this way about medicine. He's almost pathologically into health, and there is no room in "his reality" for otherwise. According to a therapist friend who knows him, he's a narcissist of the grandiose / ideal variety. Narcissists of this order sometimes become cult leaders. That kind of thing. He's quiet about it, though, not a soapbox carrier. Like I said, the audacity of his beliefs only leak out here and there. So it took me a long while to learn that his health food habit (which I see as a good thing) ran much deeper and weirder than it first appeared.

I have the same question as the other poster about the court involvement. He is extremely slippery and will find any way to get out of giving her the meds. Is there really anything the court can do? If I put it in the order that parents have to give meds as prescribed and I suspect he is not...what then?

 

[Proserpina]

Thank you for your input. What you wrote makes sense. The issue is that this man thinks he knows much better than doctors. He will nod and pretend to agree. He says almost nothing, but gives the impression he's on board. He then does whatever he wants. When truly cornered about this he will let himself express things that made me realize that he really does think he is almost supernaturally in tune with what all beings need. Not like doctors. That kind of delusion. Meanwhile he does not even notice a sick child in his midst.

You can probably see now why Dad feels this way about medicine. He's almost pathologically into health, and there is no room in "his reality" for otherwise. According to a therapist friend who knows him, he's a narcissist of the grandiose / ideal variety. Narcissists of this order sometimes become cult leaders. That kind of thing. He's quiet about it, though, not a soapbox carrier. Like I said, the audacity of his beliefs only leak out here and there. So it took me a long while to learn that his health food habit (which I see as a good thing) ran much deeper and weirder than it first appeared.

I have the same question as the other poster about the court involvement. He is extremely slippery and will find any way to get out of giving her the meds. Is there really anything the court can do? If I put it in the order that parents have to give meds as prescribed and I suspect he is not...what then?

I'm really not trying to be a pita here, but does is your "therapist friend" actually treat him? Has s/he diagnosed him? Is s/he actually qualified to diagnose anything?

No?

Then s/he might want to quit running his or her mouth - and honestly zoey, while I know the history, you need to NOT necessarily go with what they're saying.

This is the kind of stuff that is tossed around in family court all the time. Allegations and assumptions, all of it - and it very very seldom works out well.

 

[killerzoey]

I'm really not trying to be a pita here, but does is your "therapist friend" actually treat him? Has s/he diagnosed him? Is s/he actually qualified to diagnose anything?

No?

Then s/he might want to quit running his or her mouth - and honestly zoey, while I know the history, you need to NOT necessarily go with what they're saying.

This is the kind of stuff that is tossed around in family court all the time. Allegations and assumptions, all of it - and it very very seldom works out well.

Thanks to this board, I knew better than to go into my opinions in court. I held these opinions of him during trial but did not breathe a word of it. My lawyer encouraged me to, believe it or not. But for the purposes of this forum I thought it could save time here and help clarify why I dismiss out of hand the possibility of just explaining this stuff to him, or having a doctor do so. Not that I don't keep trying because I feel it's my duty as a mother, but that I know that this is not going to help get the medication into our child. I'm trying to explain why you can't just sit down and have a meaningful talk in the best interest of the kids. That's all.

Nor did I, or would I, mention this woman's name or try to interject her opinion into court. But I do value her opinion. She is pretty active in custody issues (psychologist, GAL, evaluator, etc.) and she happens to know him pretty well as a result of certain circumstances growing up. She's had repeated contact and chances to observe him in action over the past 15 years. He and I were both planning to go to her during our divorce proceedings to help deal with visitation issues. I showed up, he didn't. I liked talking to her and continued doing so. She told me this stuff in session. It was helpful to me. Immensely helpful, to know that there is a word for this sort of behavior. And since she knows the court and the judge pretty well she helped me realign my expectations and prepare for the outcome. She was right.

And no, she didn't evaluate him officially. But she has helped me understand how someone could do some of the things he has done (or failed to do). But I am not being led by the nose here. The rest are my own musings, take or leave them. I'm partially trying to answer LdiJ's question about how anyone could not know that they have to give the entire round of antibiotics. The answer is that he does know that that's what "they" say. And when pushed hard to explain, he indicates that he thinks that they are full of it, and that he knows more. Period. Evidence and facts are nothing in the face of his (in his evaluation) advanced instinct. It was incredibly hard for me to wrap my head around, and I see people struggle when I relate past events. I hear "you need to have a talk with him" and "he needs to understand". I'm trying to speed up awareness of his way of thinking, I guess, as I know how hard it is to conceive.

But my questions are regarding the facts. He has repeatedly refused to give our child meds. How do you make someone do this via the courts? If, like the other poster indicated, he can simply just continue to "forget" (or whatever is convenient to say once he has successfully delayed meds yet again), is there any value in putting it in the decree?

Ugh. Frustrating and sad. What are your thoughts about involving our 6 yo daughter in this? I feel like she could help "remind" him of the meds (and brushing teeth, etc.). I don't want to put her in that position if the bad outweighs the good, though. I would welcome any input on this.

 

[nonefornow]

Just as an idea - could you send her to visits with some kind of electronic device with an alarm set for the times she needs to take the med and then the older one can help her take it? I would imagine remembering the correct time might be the hardest part.