Giving out legal advice

[Grace_Adler]

What is the name of your state? NC

Ok, I don't know where to post this. I thought this place would be as good as any since it gets a lot of traffic and it's the main board I stay on.

I think the only ones who are going to be able to give me accurate answers are the attorneys on the board. I really need them to be accurate before I go running my mouth to anyone. LOL

I don't know if I'm going to get this across the way I want so please bear with me.

I was wondering (there I go again) are there statutes stating that people or if it is just certain groups of people can't give out legal advice? Or is it an ethical thing?

I mean, sometimes when I ask, for instance, a paralegal or the clerk of court, things, they respond by saying they can't tell me because they aren't allowed to give out legal advice. (Which I've heard of before but never really understood where the line is between giving out information and advice.) Now, not all of them tell me this. Sometimes other paralegals will give me the information I need or if I go to the clerk's office in person, they will usually help me but won't over the phone. I thought the questions I asked were general and public information. For example, asking them what forms I need for something and their procedure for handling something. I thought that would be considered public information and general type of stuff.

So who is allowed to tell you what? What can people tell you and what can't they tell you? What is considered "legal advice"? What is considered "public information"?

I just want to know so the next time I need information, I can tell them what they can and can't tell me so I can get what I need because personally I think people get a little paranoid and go overboard with this "I can't give out legal advice." stuff and are sometimes just too lazy to try and help. JMO

Also, why is it we are allowed to give out legal advice on here if in fact, people aren't allowed to do so?

One last question.. Are attorneys the only ones that are legally allowed to represent someone in court? The reason I ask is because once in district court, the judge let a man's wife represent him. The judge seemed to get a kick out of it and even ruled in their favor.

Thanks in advance for any responses.

 

[theother]

It's called CYA

Grace, I'm not sure what the legalities are but I suspect that some of what you have run across are just policies of those agencies. I also suspect that you are getting different levels of help because not everyone follows what probably is an office policy of no legal advice as strictly as they should. The clerks in my office are forbidden from answering anything but the most basic questions. They are required to summon one of us to answer anything remotely complex. Now, they have probably listened to us enough to know what we are going to say, but they still can't just answer it themselves although a couple of them will. Now, I work for a government office and I get a lot of people asking me legal questions that are really out of the scope of my expertise. Now, because of my job, I know what the norm is for a lot of situations and I may even know what is proper in those cases, but I DO NOT give out legal advice. No matter how much I want to. No matter how mundane the question. Even if I am certain that I know the answer. I could get into so much trouble. It is office policy to not give out legal advice. We are not trained for it. We won't be with you long enough to find out all the pertinent specifics of your case and probably don't know enough to figure out which details are important. I could inadvertently give you the wrong information and think that I am completely right. Or you could misinterpret my advice and do the wrong thing. Some people twist things around, hear what they want to hear, or are just can't understand what I am telling them. These are the people that inevitably come back weeks or months later and say how we screwed up their life by giving them the wrong advice, when we were just trying to do them a favor by telling them to use Form "B" when they should have used Form "C". Now, if it these are internal office forms, then yes, I should be able to direct you to the correct one and explain the form to you. But, my office also handles recorded legal documents. Our office cannot accept the liability for people filling out their legal forms incorrectly. We can't risk wrong legal advice being taken as "official" advice. If you ask me a specific question on what effect an action of yours will have, then I can generally tell you how we will respond according to the law and office policy. If you ask me what you should do or how you should do it, then I will generally tell you to consult an attorney.

 

[Grace_Adler]

Thanks. That does answer a couple of my questions but if anyone knows the answers to the others, I need to know them too. LOL

So basically it's an office policy. Does that mean the rest of the general public can give legal advice? If we were claiming to be attorneys or having the correct information, I could see where someone would have a lawsuit. But if you have a disclaimer, is that what they are for? For protection?

See, I never ask these people what I should or shouldn't do. To me, that is what would constitute giving out legal advice. To me, that would be the difference between asking "What should I do?" versus "What forms do I need?" or "Does this have to be done (according to their policy)?" or "Do I have to do this before this (according to how they do things)?" "What do I need to do in order to get this done(once again, based on what they need)?" I'm not asking "What do you think I should do?" I always ask very general things based on what they need. If I'm dealing with a paralegal, same thing pretty much.


For example, I called the clerk's office and said, "This is what I need to do. What forms do I need?" They said they couldn't give out that information. Then I said, "But that's public information. I'm not asking for you to tell me what to do or fill it out. I just want to know what you need in order to get this done." Then she tells me she doesn't know. So I said, "You're telling me, y'all do this all the time, you have the forms there but you don't know what forms to use? So that means you don't know what you're doing. So how do you get "this" done if you don't know?" So then I physically went to the clerk's office, told them what I wanted done, they gave me the forms and told me after they were turned in what would happen. Now, to me, maybe I'm wrong but that's not giving out legal advice. See they act like they can't even tell me what you said they can help me with, such as telling the correct forms and explaining their policies and how they do stuff according to the law.

I'll use this hypothetical scenario to show what I'm talking about.

Me: "Hi, I need to get a form or forms to modify a child support court order. What form(s) will I need to do that? Could you also tell me anything else I need for or from the office?"

Clerk's office: "I can't give out legal advice."

Me: "I just need to know what form(s) to use. I thought that was public information. I just need to get this done."

Clerk's office: "Well I don't know what forms you need. If you know then you can come pick them up."

Do you see where I'm heading? Actually what I needed doesn't go through court, it goes right through the clerk's office. So what is she saying? They don't know how to do anything but yet they are supposed to handle this stuff all the time? Well then how do they get anything done? LOL I mean, I know they can't tell me how to go about doing a will, suing someone or something like that but I thought they could at least tell me what forms I need that they use in order to get something done.

As far as a paralegal goes, I'm not sure where they draw the line either. I know they can give me a lot of general information (if they feel like it). Just not what I should or shouldn't do or how to do my will and stuff. However, they should and usually can tell me things like what a certain form is, what an administrator of an estate is versus an executive, etc.

I know how most of the people here in this sorry excuse of a town operate though. They are usually one of four things or maybe all of them. LOL 1. Paranoid 2. Lazy 3. They don't know what the hell they are doing. 4. Jerks Come to think of it, usually it's all of the above. LOL

I was just really curious about this and I also want to know for future reference.

Thanks again. I really appreciate it.

 

[theother]

Well, it's possible that the person you are talking to doesn't know what forms you should use. Government work is highly compartmentalized. Very few places crosstrain their employees. I make it a point to learn other people's jobs and what other agencies do, but the majority couldn't tell you about anything that they don't personally handle. Still, even though I try to keep up with other areas, there are entire groups of forms that my office uses that I have never seen or have only seen in passing while accepting it in our satellite office and sticking it in an envelope to ship to a different department. Of course, I have run into those that will deny knowing anything at all and will transfer you to a different department simply because of their own ignorance or laziness. So, you get that too.

Also, it depends on the form I guess. If you were dealing with a CSE that reviews CS for modification at the request of the obligor/ee and they had an internal form for requesting a review then yeah, it seems kind of silly that they can't help you with that. If you have to do a motion to modify or some other legal action and maybe if there are a couple different ways to go about it, then I can see how you would have to be more specific with what you want. You know, I've broken the rules and helped people out more than I was supposed to. A couple of times, it really came back and bit me in the @ss. Some people get really hung up on what they think you told them and they do come back and complain. I'm reminded of a guy who came in that I was not going to take any chances with since he apparently didn't follow direction well anyway.


Random Person: I want to give my sister some land.
Me: Perhaps, you would like to consult a real estate attorney to help you with that.
RP: That's okay my surveyor told me what to do. He gave me this form but they won't record it.
Me: Did they tell you why?
RP: No.
Me: (looking at the paperwork) Your surveyor told you to do it this way?
RP: Yes, why?
Me: Well, sir I can't really advise you on how to transfer property but, I do see some problems with this.
RP: Like what?
Me: Well, first off it's blank.
RP: But all he told me was that I needed to sign it.
Me: I'm sure he meant for you to fill it out first.
RP: He didn't tell me that. He said that is all I needed to do!
Me: Yes, but it's BLANK. But that's not the only problem. It's also not a deed. It's an amendment to a trust deed, which is a loan document.
RP: Well, that is what he gave me. He did say that my mortgage company would want to know.
Me: Oh, I'm sure they would, considering you are trying to amend your loan. Don't you think that they might want a say in it also?
RP: Well, I asked the lady at the bank and she said this was all I needed.
Me: Perhaps it is... to modify the loan, but don't they need to review and sign it too?
RP: No, she just told me this was all I needed and then gave it back to me.
Me: What exactly did you ask her?
RP: I asked if this was the form I needed and she said yes.
Me: Ummm, perhaps she didnt' understand all of what you were asking her. Still, you may need this but it won't change the ownership on the land.
RP: Well, how do I do it then?
Me: You'll probably want to use some type of deed.
RP: What kind of a deed?
Me: That's really up to you.
RP: Well, do you have any here?
Me: We have generic grant deeds and quitclaims that you can have. Which would you like?
RP: So, it doesn't matter which one I use?
Me: I didn't say that.
RP: Which should I use?
Me: I really couldn't say.
RP: What's the difference?
Me: If you need clarification on the merits of grant deeds versus quitclaim deeds, I would suggest consulting an attorney or perhaps researching them in the public law library.
RP: Well, can I record a quitclaim deed, then?
Me: You can pretty much record anything you want to.
RP: Okay...
Me: Of course, that doesn't necessarily mean that it will be right.
RP: Fine, give me a quitclaim deed. How do you fill this out?
Me: I really can't give you any legal advice, sir.
RP: Well, how am I supposed to know how to fill this out?
Me: If you are having trouble with the form, then you may want to use your current deed as an example or you could consult with a real estate attorney.
RP: Don't you deal with these everyday?
Me: Yes, I do.
RP: So, you could probably fill this out.
Me: I probably could.
RP: But, you can't help me.
Me: No, I can't.

 

[Grace_Adler]

I see what you are saying but believe me what I was trying to get wasn't anywhere near that complicated. LOL

I spoke with the Clerk of Court herself. She is the one that what I needed has to be done through. The clerk of court handles it and that's it. I told her what I was trying to do, what forms do I need to do it. She told me first, she could not give out legal advice. Then she changed it to she doesn't know. If she is the one that does it and verifies it then she says doesn't know, she's lying. She has to know because she is the one that oversees everything and that it goes through. She does this all the time but doesn't know what forms to use. Believe me, you can't get more specific then what I told her. It was as specific as the example of child support.

I ended up going to another clerk of court in another county to get the forms. She told me there was no reason why she couldn't have helped me and that she has to know what form and petition to use or she would not be able to get this done and do her job. She also said she either didn't know what she was doing or was too lazy to help me. What I wanted couldn't have been more simple. It isn't broad and general like the example you used. Believe me, what I needed is nothing at all like what you posted. Totally different. With what I wanted there is only one way to do it.

It is extrememly fustrating though. Oh hell, I think everyone should use a disclaimer. LOL

 

[hexeliebe]

Grace,

Your problem isn't one of right or wrong but of interpretation. I have met clerks who have been extremely helpful and some who couldn't wipe themselves without a four-page instruction booklet.

In your case, the clerk was being overly cautious and maybe even lazy, but well within her discretion.

The only real advice I can give you is to either visit your county bar association to ascertain which forms you will need or, as IAAL would tell you, buy a book on the subject.

One rule of thumb, it's always better to fill out too many of the unnecessary forms than not enough of the right ones. Fill out everything you can find. Then submit them. Let the judge sort it out.

 

[theother]

Grace, I wasn't trying to imply that you were as bad as that guy. It was late and I was punchy. I just wanted to share an experience that I found to be amusing, but that also illustrates why some people may be more reluctant to provide as much help as they could. If the other clerk said there was nothing wrong with helping you with those particular forms, then I guess the first clerk was just lazy, but I don't think that anyone is going to be able to give you a generic answer that will fit all situations. I think it really is going to depend on the question. In my work, there are plenty of forms that I can direct you to and help you with and plenty that I cannot. Sometimes, I'll go ask my boss about something for someone and he will tell me, that's a legal question. Really, it is? I didn't know. A lot of people just find it safer to err on the side of caution and give out very little information. Believe me, when you work in the public sector especially dealing with something as emotional as family court, a little paranoia is a good thing.

 

[Grace_Adler]

The other, no, I know you weren't trying to imply that. LOL I appreciate you trying to help me out. I know you were just trying to think of all possible scenarios and things to think of to try and illustrate what you're saying, and I totally know what you are saying because, I had already thought about that and I was just saying that this is one of those things where you can't get more specific, so that was one of the things we could rule out, while thinking this over. I really appreciate you trying to be thorough and taking the time to try to help me out. And I found it funny too. LOL

Hex,

Thank you for responding as well and I do think in my case, it was just as you said and couldn't have wiped themselves with a four page instruction booklet. LOL

If we have a county bar association, I don't know where the heck it is. LOL I know we have a state one though.

I've also been to about 8 different book stores and looked for a book on the subject and software. I couldn't find anything. See, this is going to be handled slightly differently from state to state, so maybe that's why I can't find anything. They would probably have to base it on each individual state. I could be wrong about that but I know the procedure varies a little in each state. So it might be hard to find any written material on it. I dunno. I have researched everything I can think of before resorting going to them. I wanted to try and get as much as I could, done on my own.

I thought about filling out every form there is too. LOL I might just end up doing that. Chances are, I'm probably going to get an attorney involved. I was just trying to avoid that because I really don't have the money. I could do everything myself but I do want things to be done right. I've looked up every possible thing I can regarding this subject and for the most part, I think I have found out the majority of the stuff I need to know but I really want to cover my butt, I don't want to accidentally screw something up, thinking I have everything or understand how to do it all when I'm not 100% sure or comfortable with it.

I know it's hard to give out info for my specific case without knowing what it is, but I didn't want to get into all that. It's too long and boring. LOL If I thought for one minute what I was asking them was questionable I would be the first one to say so. I know people have to say it might be this or that because no one knows the specifics and are just trying to think of every possible avenue. I just wanted to let people know, in order to help get an idea of things, that this was something very specific.

But what I really want to know is, what about in the future? If I ask someone something, I kind of want to get an idea of what they will be able to tell me. I guess this is probably something that is going to be, it depends on the question(s) and situation type of thing. I just wanted to avoid coming back here and having to ask, "I asked the clerk if they can do such and such and they wouldn't tell me. Is what I'm asking considered to be giving out legal advice?" Know what I mean? Just trying to get a general idea. But like I said, I guess it's just going to be one of those things that depends on what it is.

I agree that it's good to be cautious. Two of my mottos are "It's better to be safe than sorry." and "An ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure."

Do you guys happen to know about the representation in court by an attorney thing?

I just wanted y'all to know, I know you guys took the time to respond and help me out and I really appreciate it. I hope at any time I didn't come across as snappy or anything because if I did, I certainly didn't mean to. LOL Thanks for the laughs too. I got a kick out of the instruction booklet thing and the story with that guy and the land. LOL In the future, if I continue to run into this problem, I'll just keep doing what I've been doing, research, calling around hoping people can give me the information I need and coming here. LOL I just wanted to say thanks again.