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  1. #1
    Lorih is offline Registered User
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    how do i prove ex is working for cash- plus he lied on his motion - can he be fined?

    What is the name of your state? Illinois

    My ex just took me back to court pro se for a reduction in child support because his unemployment just ran out. He's been out of work for over a year. I knew all along he was working for cash - but didn't know where. BUT - now I do!! I drove by there and actually saw him working! How do I prove this? Pictures/video? Plus, my friend said that my ex could just say he was there helping out a friend. How do prove he is WORKING there? I really don't have money for a P.I. - but do you think I would be able to successfully prove it myself??

    If I CAN prove he is working - can he be fined or held in contempt or something for stating false information on that motion?? (saying he was unemployed) I also went to the courthouse yesterday and got a copy of the felony drug charge against him from Feb 02 - it states on there that he has an occupation (another cash job he had back then) as "sales rep". Can I use that to also show that he has been working all along? He was collecting unemployment during this time & not paying child support/healthcare expenses.

    Also - i have a few judgements against him (he never showed for divorce court & it was granted by default in Feb 02) and he just found out on our petition back to him. He said he is going to hire a laywer to get out of those judgments. Is that possible? One is for $6000 past child support, the other is for $1400 for 1/2 the legal fees. He also wants out of the $1,000 he owes me for 1/2 the healthcare expenses. The other question is - if he's able to come up withe money to hire a lawyer - wouldn't that show he has income? And if the judge doesn't let him out of those judgements - shouldn't he get fined or something for not paying child support/the judgements/healthcare but having money for lawyer?

    Thanks for any help/suggestions anyone has!!
  2. #2
    Rainbow5 Guest
    I know exactly how you feel! My ex is a somewhat wealthy man (through inheritance and business dealings), yet he continues to be cheap with our children and will do whatever it takes to reduce his child support. He frequently lies to his lawyer and others during the mediation process. Whenever he feels that he's about to be "questioned" regarding his income, he mysteriously "loses" his job, yet he is still able to maintain his standard of living. I get soooo frustrated!
    The last time that we went to court for mediation after he filed for "Modification of Support", he lied about his income and, conviently, had no way of showing what his income actually was. His support was reduced with further review within 60 days. The review never happened, but once a year my lawyer has his support increased according to the annual salary on his paystubs. Unfortunately, we found out that he was often working for cash and also not submitting all of the paystubs for his various income. I don't find my lawyer is very effective at tracking down the actual truth and I can't afford to hire a new lawyer.
    Because of this, I have started doing my own research. I found out that because he lied about his income during the last mediation prior to the modified support order, he can be held liable for back support dating back to the time that the initial modification was filed.
    The only problem is that I, like you, have to obtain proof that he lied about his income. You have a little proof in that you have a copy of a document that says he is/was employed. I doubt that he can have his judgements reversed or reduced. The courts are more likely to attach his assets to paying the back support orders. Does he own a car, house, condo, anything? These items can be attached. His wages can be garnished, as well, if you can track down some information about his current employment. If even a question of doubt arises regarding his claim that he is currently unemployed, the courts may make him prove his case, rather than making you prove otherwise. The only thing is that you need to be able to show a reasonable doubt regarding his employment for the courts to take notice. You're on the right path.
    Now, I have a question for you and others out there in this same dilemma: does anyone know what the legal obstacles are for having income tax records and bank deposit records subpoenaed?
    My lawyer wants to have my ex depositioned. The problem that I have with this is that it is expensive and my ex could take the Fifth Amendment all the way through and we would have no proof of anything. Taking the Fifth makes him look bad, but it's within his rights. This is why I want to find out about having certain documents subpoenaed. My lawyer is kind of incompetent with stuff like this, so I need any information that can be offered?
    Does anyone have information about subpoenas and Privacy Acts?
    I am located in Massachusetts.
  3. #3
    Lorih is offline Registered User
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    Rainbow - thanks for the reply. Well, it seems that our ex's sound very similar - yet are very different. Yours at least has money so that he CAN provide for his children. I know that eventhough my ex is working - he's making peanuts. I did just hire a P.I. I called him a few times and begged him to help out. I told him my situation (with a 16month baby, I've been laid-off, etc) and he was willing to reduce his rate for me. He's not going to do a whole lot for me - but I'm going to use the little $$ I have to TRY to show that my ex is employeed. That may be an option for you too....that way you get PROOF.

    As far as getting info about his checking account - my lawyer told me during my divorce that we could use that information if we needed to. Although I had the bank, acct #, etc already. So - he couldn't lie or cover that up. If you know any info about his personal information - email me privately and I'll let you know what my lawyer told me to do with it...

    I have mediation coming up soon. Any tips or advice you could give? I know my ex is planning on making up lots of stories about why he hasn't seen his son, etc. He also told me yesterday that the drug charge was "gone" and no longer on his record therefore they could never find out about it. But my ex has NO IDEA that I have copies of EVERYTHING. I have the police report, the court records where he plead guilty...he will absolutely flip! Do you know if the mediator usually sits with each person alone or both together? Also - do you know if what you say to the mediator is kept in confidence? Like - if I want to show her the police reports, ec - will she tell him I had all of that?

    Just curious!!
  4. #4
    angel_face16 Guest
    I'm not sure how the court deals with situations like this but let me tell you that whatever you do, DO NOT play private investigator yourself. I have a co-worker who was in the same situation and he began following and taking pictures of his ex and he found himself in jail on charges of stalking. Although the judge understood his reasons for what he did, as a regular citizen you're not able to do that. Private investigators aren't nearly as expensive as most people think. For a few hundred dollars you may be able to find one that can dig some info up for you. Good luck.
  5. #5
    Rainbow5 Guest
    I found that the mediation process was extremely fair. This is how I prepared for the mediation process:

    First, I made a numerical list of what I wanted and why (ie: visitation, support, etc.). Next, if I had any other documents that I needed to include as proof, I either gave them to the mediator with the list, or kept it with my own paperwork to show in the event that I caught him in a lie (which happened). When I knew that he was lying about something, I waited until it was my turn to speak, and then I offered a different view (in a pleasant manner) and handed the copy over to the mediator for review. The mediator will then review the document(s) and question your ex about the validity of his statement in regard to the existing proof that contradicts his statement. It worked! My ex was caught in so many lies that his lawyer basically threw her hands up in the air like she was exasperrated. He didn't tell his lawyer the truth either, so she couldn't exactly help him.
    Remember that in mediation to always be polite - they won't tolerate yelling, screaming, arguing or anything like that. Always be on your best behavior. You will both be able to take turns in speaking, so don't interrupt, just make a note (bring a notebook or legal pad) so that you can question, answer or rebut what was said. The more calm and polite you remain, the better you will look in mediation.
    Also, make mulitple copies of any documents that you might submit - this makes you look more organized and in control.
    And don't leave without discussing everything. You won't have another chance until you are in mediation at a later date. If your lawyer does not speak for you, speak for yourself. I already stated that my lawyer doesn't take my case as seriously as he should, so I had to make sure that all of my information was detailed and accurate. My lawyer even ended up following my notes! As far as attire: I usually dress in some kind of business attire, usually with a blazer and coordinating/dress pants. Believe it or not, you will probably be taken more seriously. Go easy on the make up and jewelry, and just relax, if possible. They are very understanding and deal with this stuff every day.
  6. #6
    Rainbow5 Guest
    As far as my ex's bank accounts:

    I have some of his bank account info, but I recently received news from a private source that he is receiving money under the table and then having his wife deposit it in an out of state bank account under her name. This is why I need to find out about having bank deposit records subpoenaed. Any advice?
  7. #7
    Rainbow5 Guest
    Hello again!

    I just did a search of old threads on this forum and found the information that I needed about subpoenas. If you want to find the same information (it might be helpful), search for "Subpoena Ducus Tecum", it's very informative.

    Also, if anyone does have any advice about the bank accounts in my ex's wife's name, please pass along any info that might be helpful. Thanks!
  8. #8
    BHG Guest
    hello lorih
    my ex has the wonderful support of his family who hides him and gives him money. they lie for him to the courts and tell me that they will continue to make sure I never get a dime. In over four years i've gotten two months of support. he has seen our daughter a handful of times and has assured me he would rather go to jail then pay me. I feel for your situation and wish you luck in getting what you deserve. I search everyday for anything on him I can get. I call his family members every month to update them on how much he owes my child and to let them know the day will come when I will win. i'm always very courteous. Inside i am a mess. GOOD LUCK!
  9. #9
    Lorih is offline Registered User
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    BHG - sorry to hear about your situation. You described it very well - as far as being courteous on the outside but a mess on the inside. I feel like that ALL the time!

    Sometimes I don't know if I will ever get past all of this. There are days I hate my ex - and days I wish we could work it out. Sometimes I think that the pain of being with him is better than the pain of being without him (living in my parents basement, having absolutely NO life at ALL).

    But he's still a manipulative loser**************....

    If only he were to pay me child support & 1/2 of a daycare expense...then maybe I could move on with my life......

    Gosh - people say to me "it can't get any worse"...but the truth is...it CAN...and it IS getting worse. I wish I knew how to make it better!!
  10. #10
    wmarge Guest

    Found somthing interesting.....

    Intentional Unemployment or Underemployment
    If the actual income of the obligor is significantly less than what the obligor could earn because of intentional unemployment or underemployment, the court may apply the support guidelines to the earning potential of the obligor.
    Wage and Salary Presumption
    In the absence of evidence of the wage and salary income of a party, the court shall presume that the party has wages or salary equal to the federal minimum wage for a 40-hour week.
  11. #11
    Lorih is offline Registered User
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    wmarge - very interesting!

    Although I am finding out that the way things SHOULD be in court is not always how it ends up. There are things that I just can't believe my ex is getting away with. The real good losers & deadbeats sure know how to get out of everything!

    I think the system needs some work. And I'm just terrified that my son may end of "falling through the cracks". I'm hoping the system makes a wise choice and orders supervised visitation. IF not - I'm going to have to find a way to take some drastic actions. Maybe calling DCFS....that's the only thing I can think of right now.

    I don't want strangers to decide to put my son in harms way. I wish the system allowed parents to protect their children better - even if it has to be from another parent. If there is documentation to prove someone is a drug addict/abuser..then the child should be protected!!
  12. #12
    wmarge Guest

    Angry Mad as HELL!!!

    I have been shuffled and passed on by everyone I have talked to, and this has been happening for years! I will try to make a long story short but try not to leave out important facts.....
    I was divorced in 1984(I paid for the entire divorce) the X would not sign the papers unless I waved CS yes, stupid I know but It was costing too much $$$ to bicker back and forth and I was young, dumb and poor!, it was not until 1990 that I attempted to collect child support through the state (of Illinois where I resided), because my X would not willingly pay. Instead of bickering back and fourth with him and begging him for help I went and signed up with the department of child support services. So, you see from 1984 until 1990 he skated free and clear without paying a dime of child support and I alone supported our children. In 1990 the courts initiated the X to pay $448 dollars a month for child support, he had nothing but anger towards me for that. To my surprise in 1992 he went to a California Court and had the support order reduced to zero. So fine from 1992 until 1996 once again he skated free and clear no one to support but himself. In 1996 the state of Arizona (He moved and quit his job every time CS garnished his checks and resided and still does in Arizona) caught up with him and ordered him to pay $548 pre month child support. He did not start paying child support until 1997 (unwillingly through garnishing his paychecks). From 1996 until 1997 there is an accumulated amount from what he didn’t pay those years that he owes my children. There is also an accumulated amount from the California Order prior to him reducing it to zero. Throughout the years, never have I attempted to adjust my child support to reflect the cost of living increases or current cost guidelines for raising and supporting children (please take note of how low my child support has been throughout the years). I paid approximately $65 per month for family medical and dental coverage. Ronald was born in 1981, Melissa 1983. For 17 years I was the sole provider of medical and dental coverage as well as financial support for the children at an average cost of $13,260 medical and dental for that length of time. Take into consideration any and all prescriptions for earaches, colds and the like that seemed to be an annual occurrence when Ronald and Melissa were young. Well at this point my X feels that he has overpaid his child support obligation! And is suing me for $$ back and then I can sue him for the back support! Truley amazing that this is even getting to court. I have already spent over $3,500 in lawyers fees and it hasent even gone to the oral arguments yet, cant wait for the next bill! I guess anyone can walk into court and sue anyone because it is an outrage... I am having such problems with California. I would love to sit down with someone prior to my court date and get some help. If you could recommend anyone of offer any help I would greatly appreciate it
    God, it feels great to vent!!
  13. #13
    BHG Guest

    Unhappy help w/ support

    Marge. There are many places that can consult you for this situation. One being pre-paid legal services (online). If you are not wealthy there could be free places. Call the D.A.'s office and see where they could point you.Maybe even Social services could be of some help to you even if you aren't on assistance. It is never right when custodial parents get the short end of the stick when all they've done was care for their children. I feel for you and hope you are able to get some help. I hope this has helped a little and if it has not i am sorry. GOOD LUCK with everything! BHG
  14. #14
    lenore Guest
    Quote:

    "I just did a search of old threads on this forum and found the information that I needed about subpoenas. If you want to find the same information (it might be helpful), search for "Subpoena Ducus Tecum", it's very informative.

    Also, if anyone does have any advice about the bank accounts in my ex's wife's name, please pass along any info that might be helpful. "
    So, has anyone ever done a subpoena? I was told that if his bank if served with a subpoena ithe bank is supposed to release the information. But how exactly in details it's done--I have no idea. Any thoughts?
    Where his financial information goes? To the court? What are the deadlines? What if the bank doesn't release this information? etc
  15. #15
    Rainbow5 Guest
    Those are my questions, too. My lawyer says that you can only have a subpoena issued through the court clerk - they have to sign it and authorize it before it can be sent out. Since my lawyer is not very effective as far as investigating my ex, I've since found a different lawyer to take care of it. I'll let you know what I find out.

    In the meantime, if anyone has any experience with this, please pass along what you know. Thanks!

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