Judge ordered "liberal" visits.

[mama_c]

What is the name of your state? Va Long story short. Husband of 18 years having an affair, drained over $18,000 out of accounts, etc. He was arrested for family abuse, felony possession and brandishing, emergency protective order issued, was removed so he could visit the kids.
I filed for custody/visitation, child/spousal support. Judge told him the kids were old enough (15 and 16) to decide when and if they wanted to see him. Original agreement states he could call the kids once a day and when and if they wanted to see him, they would call him. I had to be present when he was here.
He comes and goes as he pleases, says his attorney said he has every right to have complete access to the house and kids. He calls the house several times a day and calls me at work several times a day. Told me that I had better have the kids here when he comes over or he'll call the sheriff. Problem is, we never know when he's going to show up.
In the court papers it reads that he has "liberal" visitation. What does that mean? Do we have to put our lives on hold because he could decide he want to come here? Does he have the right to continue to call several times a day and come here when he wants? If he shows up and the kids aren't here he says he is going to call the sheriff and tell them I am keeping him from seeing the kids.
Please, any advice or info on this would be greatly appreciated.

 

[seniorjudge]

Tell us exactly what the judgment in the lawsuit says about visitation and access to the house.

 

[LdiJ]

What is the name of your state? Va Long story short. Husband of 18 years having an affair, drained over $18,000 out of accounts, etc. He was arrested for family abuse, felony possession and brandishing, emergency protective order issued, was removed so he could visit the kids.
I filed for custody/visitation, child/spousal support. Judge told him the kids were old enough (15 and 16) to decide when and if they wanted to see him. Original agreement states he could call the kids once a day and when and if they wanted to see him, they would call him. I had to be present when he was here.
He comes and goes as he pleases, says his attorney said he has every right to have complete access to the house and kids. He calls the house several times a day and calls me at work several times a day. Told me that I had better have the kids here when he comes over or he'll call the sheriff. Problem is, we never know when he's going to show up.
In the court papers it reads that he has "liberal" visitation. What does that mean? Do we have to put our lives on hold because he could decide he want to come here? Does he have the right to continue to call several times a day and come here when he wants? If he shows up and the kids aren't here he says he is going to call the sheriff and tell them I am keeping him from seeing the kids.
Please, any advice or info on this would be greatly appreciated.

I agree with Seniorjudge that you need to tell us exactly what the orders say. However I can tell you that his threats to call the sheriff are empty ones. The police rarely try to enforce visitation orders, and when they do get involved its when the order has specific days and times. They definitely won't get involved with an order that says "liberal visitation".

 

[mama_c]

The exact wording, leaving out the names of the kids, is as follows:
Joint legal custody of (children) is granted to both parents. Physical custody of children to mother, with liberal visitation to the father.

The judge that heard this case was a substitute and admitted that this was not her expertise, when I brought up the original agreement he had agreed to and that due to his history of family abuse I did not feel comfortable with him being here with the kids alone, she told me she couldn't do anything about that. She told him that the kids were old enough to decide for themselves. They usually see him for about 5 minutes then make excuses to go to there rooms.

I really am worried about what he is capable of doing. He follows the school bus home and then comes into the house with the kids when he knows I'm not there. Can I go back and try to get scheduled visits? He won't put in a change of address or take his belongings because he says he doesn't have to. It's been since Dec. 16, 2006, and he tells me he has a plan that will take care of everything.

Thanks for the advice. It really is appreciated.

 

[bononos again]

The exact wording, leaving out the names of the kids, is as follows:
Joint legal custody of (children) is granted to both parents. Physical custody of children to mother, with liberal visitation to the father.

The judge that heard this case was a substitute and admitted that this was not her expertise, when I brought up the original agreement he had agreed to and that due to his history of family abuse I did not feel comfortable with him being here with the kids alone, she told me she couldn't do anything about that. She told him that the kids were old enough to decide for themselves. They usually see him for about 5 minutes then make excuses to go to there rooms.

I really am worried about what he is capable of doing. He follows the school bus home and then comes into the house with the kids when he knows I'm not there. Can I go back and try to get scheduled visits? He won't put in a change of address or take his belongings because he says he doesn't have to. It's been since Dec. 16, 2006, and he tells me he has a plan that will take care of everything.

Thanks for the advice. It really is appreciated.

You made the same mistake I did when custody was initially established. Vague order.
I will take some time to check for your state if it applies, but, in many cases, a clarification and modification can be filed for, again, I'll check and hopefully you will too if this applies to you and your state. A mediation is a good idea. The first time I did one, we were vague...no specific times, dates, holidays, calls, etc... like yours.
Mediation is what you need to set the boundaries.
First research (or call your attorney if you have one) too find out your options.
Then, take plenty of time to write out everything. "Liberal" can cause so many problems on both sides. CP doesn't allow visits and contact or NCP over-steps the limits.
Don't wait for his "plan". Take the initiative. Suggest a plan for mediation to hash out EVERY detail.
Also, if he follows the bus and pops up when your not home...maybe it's a conscienous (sp) act. So the kids are looked after to get home OK. I don't care what age they are, it's always a good idea to have parental supervision after school.

Edit to add:
My initial order was 1 page. (talk about vague)
My second was 2.
My new order is 6 full pages.

 

[LdiJ]

Were you granted possession of the marital home? If so, he truly cannot simply enter your home whenever he wants to do so. Even with "liberal" visitation a judge would expect him to contact you and make specific plans to visit with the children, OUTSIDE of your home.

You really are going to have to take it back to court. His attorney is telling him that he can do these things when he really cannot. As someone else said, you need to take it back to court so that boundries get established.

In the meantime, don't be afraid of his threats to call the sheriff. If you and the kids, or the kids, have other plans, then go ahead with your plans. You don't have to put your lives on hold because he has "liberal" visitation. In fact, it might do a world of good for dad to show up when you aren't home, and call the sheriff, and get told by the sheriff that he is out of his mind.

 

[bononos again]

"Court" is a scarry word.
There are so many steps before "court".
It doesn't have to be decided by a judge.
MEDIATION
Again, you are in a situation where NCP is overstepping bounds because of vague orders. CP overstep control all the time when the word "liberal"is there.

 

[CJane]

My initial order was 1 page. (talk about vague)
My second was 2.
My new order is 6 full pages.

Heh. My first one was 8 pages, the new one is 12+. Sometimes, they get out of control on the specifics too.

 

[mama_c]

Thank you all so much. I am going to the magistrate on Monday to have another protective order issued, he called tonight and started with threats, telling me he was going to come over and park in my driveway and then when I went to sleep he was going to take care of all his problems. Talked to the sheriff and said they were going to drive by every 1/2 hour or so. They said that he would have no reason to be parked here in the middle of the night.

One more question, can I limit his visits until I get back into court to set up a more structured visitation? He shows up here unannounced. Do I have to let him in?

Next step is to find out how to afford an attorney, he left me with all the bills, and then quit his job so he wouldn't have to pay.

Thanks again.

 

[LdiJ]

Thank you all so much. I am going to the magistrate on Monday to have another protective order issued, he called tonight and started with threats, telling me he was going to come over and park in my driveway and then when I went to sleep he was going to take care of all his problems. Talked to the sheriff and said they were going to drive by every 1/2 hour or so. They said that he would have no reason to be parked here in the middle of the night.

One more question, can I limit his visits until I get back into court to set up a more structured visitation? He shows up here unannounced. Do I have to let him in?

Next step is to find out how to afford an attorney, he left me with all the bills, and then quit his job so he wouldn't have to pay.

Thanks again.

You can't really limit his visitation per se, but you can insist that he make specific plans with you, in advance. You absolutely don't have to allow him into your home at all. Liberal visitaiton doesn't give him the right to enter your home at will.