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  1. #1
    whyaskwhy is offline Junior Member
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    Is it kidnapping if I don't bring my son back to his mom?

    What is the name of your state (only U.S. law)? MO

    Neither one of us have official court custody. We are both on the birth certificate. He is 3 years old. Her and I broke up when he was 1 and for the last 2 years he has lived with her but now she has been in and out of mental institutions and she has no job and no money and doesn't even try to get a job. She has been addicted and re addicted to prescription pain pills throughout the entire time I've known her and I'm sick of it so I want to take him from her but don't have the resources to do it through the courts because it is very costly and I am living in one state while on parole in another state. My PO knows i am and he's ok with it because I haven't caused a single bit of trouble since I've been released. He has also submitted my case for early release and that is pending and I should receive an answer in a few months at most. He can't put me in for a transfer to another state because I don't have enough time left on parole. Now for the kicker, His grandma on his moms side plans to move to Oregon with him on June 10th and if she does I'll never see him again. So yeah the main question is is that considered kidnapping
  2. #2
    JETX is offline Senior Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by whyaskwhy View Post
    His grandma on his moms side plans to move to Oregon with him on June 10th and if she does I'll never see him again. So yeah the main question is is that considered kidnapping
    There is a Missouri statute that prevents a PARENT ("person having a right of custody") from taking the child.

    Parental kidnapping--penalty.
    565.153. 1. In the absence of a court order determining rights of custody or visitation to a child, a person having a right of custody of the child commits the crime of parental kidnapping if he removes, takes, detains, conceals, or entices away that child within or without the state, without good cause, and with the intent to deprive the custody right of another person or a public agency also having a custody right to that child.
    2. Parental kidnapping is a class D felony, unless committed by detaining or concealing the whereabouts of the child for:
    (1) Not less than sixty days but not longer than one hundred nineteen days, in which case, the crime is a class C felony;
    (2) Not less than one hundred twenty days, in which case, the crime is a class B felony.
    3. A subsequently obtained court order for custody or visitation shall not affect the application of this section.


    And a separate law that would apply to the child's grandmother (no 'right of custody'). It is:
    Assisting in child abduction or parental kidnapping--penalty.
    565.165. 1. A person commits the crime of assisting in child abduction or parental kidnapping if he:
    (1) Before or during the commission of a child abduction or parental kidnapping as defined in section 565.153 or 565.156 and with the intent to promote or facilitate such offense, intentionally assists another in the planning or commission of child abduction or parental kidnapping, unless before the commission of the offense he makes proper efforts to prevent the commission of the offense; or
    (2) With the intent to prevent the apprehension of a person known to have committed the offense of child abduction or parental kidnapping, or with the intent to obstruct or prevent efforts to locate the child victim of a child abduction, knowingly destroys, alters, conceals or disguises physical evidence or furnishes false information.
    2. Assisting in child abduction or parental kidnapping is a class A misdemeanor.


    Finally, there is also case law on the matter:
    See State ex rel. Laws v. Higgins 734 S.W. 2d 274 (Mo. App. 1987), “Unlawful retention of children by noncustodial parent following period of temporary lawful custody is criminal offense.”

    I suggest you IMMEDIATELY contact the courts about obtaining a temporary order to prevent them from removing the child... and also let them know that you would pursue criminal charges in the event that the did take the child.
    Last edited by JETX; 05-27-2009 at 05:52 AM.
  3. #3
    Jooner is offline Junior Member
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    Do not do it

    Search on line for the term 'Custodial Interference' and as a person on parole, you may end up in really serious trouble. Do not kidnap and/or take and conceal your child. My ex-wife did this to our child and its been horrible.

    If you do kidnap, you may never see your child again as things will go the wrong way and the child's mother and grandparents could file a missing child complaint.

    Maybe, you could go to the Police Department and ask them & inform them that the child is with you, under your protection, residing at your address, and protecting your child from a drug addicted mother, this, for the best interest of the child. This way, the law enforcement authorities are aware of where you are and where the child is - but please ask them.

    Get free legal help -

    [url=http://www.usattorneylegalservices.com/free-legal-aid-Missouri.html]FREE LEGAL AID Missouri[/url]

    They will help you file for temporary custody of your child until such time that the State evaluates what is in the best interest of your child.

    If your child's grandparents have legal custody, then ask the judge for an emergency order to intervene and not to remove your child from the state.

    If they do leave, last time I checked, Oregon is connected by Highway to the rest of the country. So even if the child is allowed to move, settle your issues, go there and enforce your parental rights later (custody or visitation).

    Please no more child victims of parental kidnapping - enough is enough.
  4. #4
    JETX is offline Senior Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jooner View Post
    Search on line for the term 'Custodial Interference'
    I guess you missed the part where the OP said, "Neither one of us have official court custody", huh?

    No 'custodial order', no 'custodial interference'.

    As for the rest of your 'legally accurate advice'.. it isn't. Clearly you have no legal education or experience.... and your post is simply your emotional 'knee-JERK' opinion.
  5. #5
    Jooner is offline Junior Member
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    Correct

    @jetx

    It was a knee-jerk reaction, and yes, I do not have any legal training. Will refrain from any further advice...

    Apologies
  6. #6
    Ohiogal is offline Senior Member
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    Search on line for the term 'Custodial Interference' and as a person on parole, you may end up in really serious trouble. Do not kidnap and/or take and conceal your child. My ex-wife did this to our child and its been horrible.

    Your ex-wife did NOT do that. She moved after you moved out of the country. You didn't even see your son in a year and are just ticked that she moved from her address without telling you. That is NOT kidnapping. Especially since she had the child call you.


    Please do NOT post your drivel on other's posts. You don't know of what you are speaking.
    Parents should remember 3 things: Love your kids more than you hate your ex; when you have children the relationship with the other parent is until death; your children determine what type of nursing home you end up in.
    Nothing stated by me should be taken as giving you legal advice or forming an attorney/client relationship.

    Attorney-GAL in Ohio.

    I've removed the knife from my back, polished it, and will one day return it -- long after you think I have forgotten.
  7. #7
    LdiJ is offline Senior Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by whyaskwhy View Post
    What is the name of your state (only U.S. law)? MO

    Neither one of us have official court custody. We are both on the birth certificate. He is 3 years old. Her and I broke up when he was 1 and for the last 2 years he has lived with her but now she has been in and out of mental institutions and she has no job and no money and doesn't even try to get a job. She has been addicted and re addicted to prescription pain pills throughout the entire time I've known her and I'm sick of it so I want to take him from her but don't have the resources to do it through the courts because it is very costly and I am living in one state while on parole in another state. My PO knows i am and he's ok with it because I haven't caused a single bit of trouble since I've been released. He has also submitted my case for early release and that is pending and I should receive an answer in a few months at most. He can't put me in for a transfer to another state because I don't have enough time left on parole. Now for the kicker, His grandma on his moms side plans to move to Oregon with him on June 10th and if she does I'll never see him again. So yeah the main question is is that considered kidnapping
    Don't do it...unwed mothers have custody by default and you could put yourself in a serious world of hurt. You are on parole and living in a different state, albiet with the blessing of your parole officer.

    You need to handle things legally, not take them into your own hands.
  8. #8
    JETX is offline Senior Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by LdiJ View Post
    Don't do it
    Don't do WHAT??? The OP doesn't say anything that he is going, or even contemplating doing.
    Yes, he does say "I want to take him from her" but I don't read that as a threat to 'steal'... more a desire to take custody.

    unwed mothers have custody by default
    WRONG!!!
    In Missouri with unmarried parents, as in most states, custody is usually (NOT DEFAULT!) awarded to the mother unless the father takes action to be awarded custody. It is usually pretty difficult for an unwed father to gain custody of his children unless the mother is unfit.
    Based solely on the information in this post, it should be pretty easy to show the unfit mother.... and even more likely if the care and custody has been abdicated to the maternal grandmother.

    You need to handle things legally, not take them into your own hands.
    I agree.... and don't see anything in the OP to even suggest otherwise.
  9. #9
    LdiJ is offline Senior Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by JETX View Post
    Don't do WHAT??? The OP doesn't say anything that he is going, or even contemplating doing.
    Yes, he does say "I want to take him from her" but I don't read that as a threat to 'steal'... more a desire to take custody.


    WRONG!!!
    In Missouri with unmarried parents, as in most states, custody is usually (NOT DEFAULT!) awarded to the mother unless the father takes action to be awarded custody. It is usually pretty difficult for an unwed father to gain custody of his children unless the mother is unfit.
    Based solely on the information in this post, it should be pretty easy to show the unfit mother.... and even more likely if the care and custody has been abdicated to the maternal grandmother.


    I agree.... and don't see anything in the OP to even suggest otherwise.
    The bolded is incorrect. People do not have to be awarded custody by a court in order to have custody of their children. In nearly all states an unwed mother automatically has custody of her children by virtue of having given birth. An unwed father does not have any custody until custody is awarded to him by the courts.

    I suggest that you re-read his post. Both the title and the text clearly indicate a desire to withhold the child from the mother, without going to court.
  10. #10
    JETX is offline Senior Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by LdiJ View Post
    The bolded is incorrect.
    Nice try.... but it IS correct.

    You might want to argue your OPINION with the following:
    "The unmarried mother is presumed to have the primary or natural right to custody of children born when she is not married."
    [url=http://www.legalmatch.com/law-library/article/child-custody-between-unmarried-parents.html]Child Custody Between Unmarried Parents Lawyers[/url]

    "When the childís parents are unmarried, custody is usually awarded to the mother unless the father takes action to be awarded custody. It is usually pretty difficult for an unwed father to gain custody of his children unless the mother is unfit."
    [url=http://blog.laborlawtalk.com/2006/12/26/missouri-child-custody-laws/]Missouri Child Custody Laws - Labor Law Talk Blog[/url]

    In fact, Missouri doesn't even HAVE a 'default custodial parent', as the Missouri laws REQUIRE that the court order a 'parenting plan'....
    "When parents are divorcing, the law requires that the Court order a parenting plan as part of the dissolution. When the parents are not married, it is often in the interest of the child for one or both of the parents to seek a custody and visitation order from the court."
    [url=http://www.mwortmanlaw.com/child-custody.htm]Kansas City Child Custody Lawyer, Child Custody Attorney, Court Ordered Parenting, Missouri Child Custody Jurisdiction, Missouri Divorce lawyer[/url]

    "If you are an unmarried father in Missouri, you will be subject to a child support order ó but that does not mean you have child custody rights. In the past, if an unmarried father wanted custodial rights, a paternity suit had to be filed. Now, if you are the father listed on the birth certificate and are paying support, you can file a petition to gain custody and visitation rights. This means pursing parental rights and drafting a parenting plan."
    [url=http://www.jbantelaw.com/Legal_Practice_Areas/Child-Custody-Visitation.shtml]Saint Louis MO Child Custody Attorney | Missouri Paternity Parental Rights Modification Grandparent Visitation Lawyer[/url]

    People do not have to be awarded custody by a court in order to have custody of their children. In nearly all states an unwed mother automatically has custody of her children by virtue of having given birth. An unwed father does not have any custody until custody is awarded to him by the courts.
    Proven WRONG by the above....

    I suggest that you re-read his post. Both the title and the text clearly indicate a desire to withhold the child from the mother, without going to court.
    And I suggest you do a little legal research before you go advising people with your 'universal' statements.
  11. #11
    CJane is offline Senior Member
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    Here's the deal OP.

    Have you been LEGALLY declared to be the father of this child?

    I am NOT asking if you are on the BC. I'm asking if AT ANY POINT post-birth, you filed an affidavit of paternity with the courts. IS there a child support order in place through either DFS or the court?

    While JETX posted references to the statutes that outline a required parenting plan, those apply ONLY to DIVORCING COUPLES who have children OF THE MARRIAGE. They do not apply to YOU.

    In Missouri, absent court orders stating otherwise, an unwed mother has sole legal and physical custody of a child born to her.

    NOW, whether or not that custody would be ENFORCED is another thing entirely. Still, a very bad idea for you to just KEEP the child from his mother. You would not have a legal leg to stand on and risk violating your parole.

    Since there is NO COURT ORDER for custody/visitation, Mom CAN, in fact relocate. She's not even under any obligation to tell you that she's doing-so provided her intent is not to 'secret, conceal, etc'.

    This is a portion of the relocation statute in MO:

    2. Notice of a proposed relocation of the residence of the child, or any party entitled to custody or visitation of the child, shall be given in writing by certified mail, return receipt requested, to any party with custody or visitation rights. Absent exigent circumstances as determined by a court with jurisdiction, written notice shall be provided at least sixty days in advance of the proposed relocation. The notice of the proposed relocation shall include the following information:

    (1) The intended new residence, including the specific address and mailing address, if known, and if not known, the city;

    (2) The home telephone number of the new residence, if known;

    (3) The date of the intended move or proposed relocation;

    (4) A brief statement of the specific reasons for the proposed relocation of a child, if applicable; and

    (5) A proposal for a revised schedule of custody or visitation with the child, if applicable.

    3. A party required to give notice of a proposed relocation pursuant to subsection 2 of this section has a continuing duty to provide a change in or addition to the information required by this section as soon as such information becomes known.
    Please note the bolded. You are NOT 'entitled to custody or visitation' with this child. You certainly have the right to FILE for visitation/custody, but you do not CURRENTLY have any legal obligations/rights other than the 'standing' to sue for rights.

    If you cannot afford to hire an attorney in order to attempt to gain rights/obligations, then you can certainly do-so yourself. However, please be aware that going pro se (without attorney) is difficult and time consuming.

    You WILL be ordered to pay child support, likely going back to the time the case is filed (plan on being in arrears at least 6 months, perhaps longer, once the order is finalized).

    It is HIGHLY unlikely that you will gain primary custody.

    If Mom has already moved WITH IMMEDIATE FAMILY by the time you file for visitation/custody (paternity if not established), then it's unlikely that she will be ordered to return the child to MO.

    What state is your parole out of? What was your conviction?
  12. #12
    JETX is offline Senior Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by CJane View Post
    While JETX posted references to the statutes that outline a required parenting plan, those apply ONLY to DIVORCING COUPLES who have children OF THE MARRIAGE. They do not apply to YOU.
    I agree. My post was in response to the claim that "unwed mothers have custody by default" which may be true in some states.... but it is NOT a standard for all states.... including Missouri.

    In Missouri, absent court orders stating otherwise, an unwed mother has sole legal and physical custody of a child born to her.
    Prove it!!

    To the OP.... you are getting a lot of WRONG information in this thread as to 'default' custody, unwed mother has sole custody, etc.

    Read sections 452.375 through 452.395 of the Missouri Revised Statutes at: [url=http://www.moga.mo.gov/STATUTES/C452.HTM]RSMO-Chapter 452[/url]

    The issue of custody in Missouri is complex as that state has a specific list of criteria that must be used to determine ACTUAL custody, married or not. I strongly suggest you contact a Missouri based family law attorney.

    Also, read the information at:
    [url=http://www.therobertslawfirm.net/CM/FamilyLaw/Child-Custody-Visitation.asp]Missouri Child Custody Lawyers Visitation Rights Attorneys St. Louis MO[/url]
  13. #13
    CJane is offline Senior Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by JETX View Post
    I agree. My post was in response to the claim that "unwed mothers have custody by default" which may be true in some states.... but it is NOT a standard for all states.... including Missouri.
    From: [url=http://www.jbantelaw.com/Legal_Practice_Areas/Child-Custody-Visitation.shtml]Saint Louis MO Child Custody Attorney | Missouri Paternity Parental Rights Modification Grandparent Visitation Lawyer[/url] (A MO family law attorney)

    Paternity Actions and Petitions for Custody

    If you are an unmarried father in Missouri, you will be subject to a child support order ó but that does not mean you have child custody rights. In the past, if an unmarried father wanted custodial rights, a paternity suit had to be filed. Now, if you are the father listed on the birth certificate and are paying support, you can file a petition to gain custody and visitation rights. This means pursing parental rights and drafting a parenting plan.
    (4) "Parent and child relationship", the legal relationship existing between a child and his natural or adoptive parents incident to which the law confers or imposes rights, privileges, duties, and obligations. It includes the mother and child relationship and the father and child relationship.
    Those rights duties and obligations? That's custody/child support/etc.

    Parent and child relationship, how established.

    210.819. The parent and child relationship between child and:

    (1) The natural mother may be established by proof of her having given birth to the child, or under the provisions of sections 210.817 to 210.852;

    (2) The natural father may be established under the provisions of sections 210.817 to 210.852;

    (3) An adoptive parent may be established by proof of adoption.
    In MISSOURI, when the parents are UNMARRIED, it's a PATERNITY/PARENTAGE action. You have repeatedly directed OP to the DIVORCE statutes.

    From: [url=http://www.mwortmanlaw.com/paternity.htm]Paternity, Kansas City Paternity Lawyer, Missouri Paternity Testing, Paternity Actions, Missouri attorney[/url] A family law attorney in MO.

    Missouri law provides for a specific cause of action to determine a parent child relationship for parents of children that are born outside of marriage. This is called an action for establishment of Parentage. The most common type of action is that to determine the Father-child relationship, called an action for Declaration of Paternity, but it is possible to bring an action for determination of the Mother-child relationship as well. Actions for Paternity are increasingly more common in todayís society, and they are a very important tool to unmarried parents, particularly fathers. Without marriage or a judicial declaration of paternity, a fatherís parental rights are just short of non-existent. Not only will the action formally recognize a fatherís relationship to a child, but the action can be combined with actions for custody and child support.
    Quote Originally Posted by JETX View Post
    The issue of custody in Missouri is complex as that state has a specific list of criteria that must be used to determine ACTUAL custody, married or not. I strongly suggest you contact a Missouri based family law attorney.
    Missouri DOES have a list of best interests factors that shall be considered when determining custody DURING A COURT ACTION. It's a short list - 8 items. The judge need not consider ALL of them, only the relevant ones (by HIS determination, not yours).

    But they aren't arbitrary. Unless you FILE for custody/visitation, you have NO RIGHTS to either. And any time w/the child that Mom grants you is more than the law currently requires.

    Again, you CURRENTLY have NO custody or visitation rights. You only have STANDING to establish them.

    I've spent a lot of time in MO courts, and worked with several MO family law attorneys. I am an unmarried Mother (never married to the father) who has been through these issues and discussed them with my own counsel as well as the counsel for the father of my son when I was pro se. I have been assured repeatedly that barring a court order stating otherwise, I am my son's sole custodian. That's good enough for me.

    But yeah, you should feel free to get a free consult with an attorney in your area so they can tell you the same thing.
  14. #14
    lilcutechika is offline Junior Member
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    help

    Ok so what should i do i was living in MIssouri and my daughters father who is not on the birth certificate nor has a DNA test been established took my daughter from my boyfriend who was watching my daughter for me while i spent 30 days in jail cuz i had no one else to help watch her and anyways he took her from him and has now had her for 2 years because all the cops, judges, attorneys, procescuting attorney, and lawyers are courupt and can be paid off since he knows them all and is related to some of them. I filed a kidnapping charge against him and his dad cuz i think it was actually his dad who took her and nothing ever came of it and never did nothing he ran off to Kansas city with her and i tried to get her back but no one would help me becuase he knows to many ppl so there siding with him leaving me hopeless. Since it felt like nothing could be done about it and i was having any hope with a job out there i moved to california back home to get better oppurtunties now he moved back to Missouri and he hasnt let me have contact with him because i wont give him her social security number. I dont know what to do or how i can do anything to get her back can u help
  15. #15
    sandyclaus is offline Senior Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by lilcutechika View Post
    Ok so what should i do i was living in MIssouri and my daughters father who is not on the birth certificate nor has a DNA test been established took my daughter from my boyfriend who was watching my daughter for me while i spent 30 days in jail cuz i had no one else to help watch her and anyways he took her from him and has now had her for 2 years because all the cops, judges, attorneys, procescuting attorney, and lawyers are courupt and can be paid off since he knows them all and is related to some of them. I filed a kidnapping charge against him and his dad cuz i think it was actually his dad who took her and nothing ever came of it and never did nothing he ran off to Kansas city with her and i tried to get her back but no one would help me becuase he knows to many ppl so there siding with him leaving me hopeless. Since it felt like nothing could be done about it and i was having any hope with a job out there i moved to california back home to get better oppurtunties now he moved back to Missouri and he hasnt let me have contact with him because i wont give him her social security number. I dont know what to do or how i can do anything to get her back can u help
    The first thing you need to do is start your own thread instead of necroposting on an old one.

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