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Mother says she will not release children for Christmas visit

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NCPFather

Junior Member
What is the name of your state (only U.S. law)? FL

Father has a parenting plan that was created when mother moved the kids from home state of FL to new state GA. Parenting plan created when Father protested mother's move. FL courts still hold jurisdiction.

Father moved to MA a year after kids moved out of state. Father gave mother 30 days notice of his move with no conflict from Mother. Father tried in mediation to have parenting plan modified to include rules about air travel transportation; mother wanted Thanksgiving every other year, but father didn't want to give it up so nothing was changed in mediation.

Because the Father had the kids for the summer at his new address Mother was required to fly kids from MA to GA at the end of the summer. (The parent who is receiving kids is responsible for transportation in the Parenting Plan.)

Mother initiated contact and purchased plane tickets to fly the kids from GA to MA for Thanksgiving, and Father agreed to fly the kids back to mother from MA to GA.

Father purchased tickets for kids to fly from GA to MA for Christmas (Again the parent who is receiving kids is responsible for transportation.)

Mother is saying because the Parenting Plan was not modified due to father's move that she does not have to follow it.

The last email Father received when he asked Mother for the kids sake to have them ready for Father to pick up in GA for him to fly them to MA was "As a result of your choice to move before amending the parenting plan to one we can execute and as I have repeatedly told you that it is not feasible for you to take the children with no arrangement to return them I will unfortunately not be able to release the children on the 18th."

I have a lawyer who has ignored my emails and calls asking for assistance with this issue.

Is it true that because the Parenting plan was never "amended" after Father moved that she is not obligated to follow the court order? Does this mean the current Parenting Plan is invalid?

Father has plans to go to pick up the kids as scheduled for noon on 12/18 and call the police if Mother refuses to release them. What are the chances Mother will be found in contempt of court?What is the name of your state (only U.S. law)?
 
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WittyUserName

Senior Member
The court order stands until it's changed by the judge. However, for Dad to move all the way to Massachusetts and expect Mom to cover half the travel may be seen as unreasonable. That's a whole different matter than getting the kids GA-FL.

Is Mom potentially at risk of being found in contempt? Sure. But how hard is a judge going to come down on her when Dad created that distance?

Also - back to this idea that Mom "never objected to the move"... this is only an issue if Dad moved the kids. If Dad is NCP, then he's free to move anywhere he likes. Mom objecting would have done her no good; she couldn't have prevented Dad from leaving if the kids were primarily in her care anyway. And she seems like she's tried to facilitate visitation since she's bought at least one set of tickets.

I don't see Mom getting in a huge amount of trouble for this. Dad is free to show up, document, and go back to court. But long-term, that may not do him any good if the goal is to force Mom to pay for half the transportation. Short-term, he's also unlikely to get Christmas this year. Shame on him for not dealing with this sooner.

Who, may I ask, are you in all this, 3rd party with the telltale username?
 

majomom1

Senior Member
The court order stands until it's changed by the judge. However, for Dad to move all the way to Massachusetts and expect Mom to cover half the travel may be seen as unreasonable. That's a whole different matter than getting the kids GA-FL.

Is Mom potentially at risk of being found in contempt? Sure. But how hard is a judge going to come down on her when Dad created that distance?

Also - back to this idea that Mom "never objected to the move"... this is only an issue if Dad moved the kids. If Dad is NCP, then he's free to move anywhere he likes. Mom objecting would have done her no good; she couldn't have prevented Dad from leaving if the kids were primarily in her care anyway. And she seems like she's tried to facilitate visitation since she's bought at least one set of tickets.
I don't see Mom getting in a huge amount of trouble for this. Dad is free to show up, document, and go back to court. But long-term, that may not do him any good if the goal is to force Mom to pay for half the transportation. Short-term, he's also unlikely to get Christmas this year. Shame on him for not dealing with this sooner.

Who, may I ask, are you in all this, 3rd party with the telltale username?
Yes... It looks like Mom has purchased tickets twice, according to this post, for summer and for Thanksgiving.

Mom asked to rotate Thanksgiving each year which is fairly common and reasonable. Now NCP wants Christmas too? Isn't that usually rotated as well?

How old are the kids? And what do the current orders say about parenting time, including holidays?
 

NCPFather

Junior Member
Yes... It looks like Mom has purchased tickets twice, according to this post, for summer and for Thanksgiving.

Mom asked to rotate Thanksgiving each year which is fairly common and reasonable. Now NCP wants Christmas too? Isn't that usually rotated as well?

How old are the kids? And what do the current orders say about parenting time, including holidays?
The current Parenting Plan has granted father visitation for Thanksgiving, Spring Break and 8 wks in summer every year with alternating Christmas vacation to father gets first week from 12/18-12/26 even years. Mother had kids last year 09' for the same period.

Yes the NCP wants Christmas and THanksgiving I went from seeing my kids every other weekend to a long-distance plan because she moved them out of state. Even with this current schedule I have lost 2 weeks of time plus.

The kids are 13 and 14yrs. She told the kids that their grandparents are going to be at her house for Christmas and that they don't have to go to father's if they don't want to. This is the first time one of the kids has said this to Father to confirm a pattern of PAS.
 

NCPFather

Junior Member
The court order stands until it's changed by the judge. However, for Dad to move all the way to Massachusetts and expect Mom to cover half the travel may be seen as unreasonable. That's a whole different matter than getting the kids GA-FL.

Is Mom potentially at risk of being found in contempt? Sure. But how hard is a judge going to come down on her when Dad created that distance?

Also - back to this idea that Mom "never objected to the move"... this is only an issue if Dad moved the kids. If Dad is NCP, then he's free to move anywhere he likes. Mom objecting would have done her no good; she couldn't have prevented Dad from leaving if the kids were primarily in her care anyway. And she seems like she's tried to facilitate visitation since she's bought at least one set of tickets.

I don't see Mom getting in a huge amount of trouble for this. Dad is free to show up, document, and go back to court. But long-term, that may not do him any good if the goal is to force Mom to pay for half the transportation. Short-term, he's also unlikely to get Christmas this year. Shame on him for not dealing with this sooner.

Who, may I ask, are you in all this, 3rd party with the telltale username?
When father moved one hour away mother refused to help with transportation in mediation. She did not do one transport for 5 years of father having every other weekend.

The judge made father split the transportation from FL to GA which was a 6hr ride one way. I had proof that she was alienating me from my kids and he didn't care and still let her move and still made me responsible for transportation.
 

Isis1

Senior Member
If you walk into court and use the term PAS, the judge will stop listening to you. No wonder.

Now, this one incident, is not proof of parental alienation. Not even close. Since she did follow through on the two prior visits. Further proof she is not alienating them from you.

Legally, mom is required to follow the current court order as it stands now. Dad is well within his right to request mom be held in contempt.it's up to the judge to either take this as a misunderstanding and clarify the order for the remaining few years of these teenagers, or to hold mom in contempt.it could go both ways.
 

NCPFather

Junior Member
If you walk into court and use the term PAS, the judge will stop listening to you. No wonder.

Now, this one incident, is not proof of parental alienation. Not even close. Since she did follow through on the two prior visits. Further proof she is not alienating them from you.

Legally, mom is required to follow the current court order as it stands now. Dad is well within his right to request mom be held in contempt.it's up to the judge to either take this as a misunderstanding and clarify the order for the remaining few years of these teenagers, or to hold mom in contempt.it could go both ways.
Shame on him for not dealing with this sooner.
Thanks for the confirmation that the parenting plan as it reads is still valid. I appreciate most of the responses.

I am not suggesting this one incident is PAS, I am not going to go into detail here, but our situation is that she has been alienating kids from me and the court system is just rewarding her. I did try to resolve it in mediation she was being unreasonable in expecting me to give up an entire week of vacation.

I am a good father, I love my kids and I simply want to see them to have a relationship with them. I don't understand why any of the responders on here want to "shame" on the posts. I am trying my best and you don't have the whole story.
 

Isis1

Senior Member
Let's try this one more time. There is no such thing as PAS. It has been discredited. Parental Alienation, yes. Not PAS. You say that word in court, you've stuck your foot in your mouth.

Another point not in your favor of your argument, you moved yet further away. Sorry dude. You are going the wrong route.
 

Proserpina

Senior Member
Thanks for the confirmation that the parenting plan as it reads is still valid. I appreciate most of the responses.

I am not suggesting this one incident is PAS, I am not going to go into detail here, but our situation is that she has been alienating kids from me and the court system is just rewarding her. I did try to resolve it in mediation she was being unreasonable in expecting me to give up an entire week of vacation.

I am a good father, I love my kids and I simply want to see them to have a relationship with them. I don't understand why any of the responders on here want to "shame" on the posts. I am trying my best and you don't have the whole story.


You think it's parental alienation (not PAS, which has been completely discredited).

The courts have disagreed, and they presumably did have the whole story.

What is your goal though?
 

NCPFather

Junior Member
My goal is to confirm that we have a court order that the Mother is legally obligated to abide by and the court will enforce, so that I can know when I am going to see the kids.

I was NOT told by my attorney that if I moved then the Parenting Plan would not need to be followed by the mother. I clearly told my attorney my intentions and fear that she may do something like this, but he assured me that the court order we have is currently a long-distance plan (again she created the long distance first).

I am not going to say anything about alienation in court, sorry I brought that into this discussion.
 

WittyUserName

Senior Member
My goal is to confirm that we have a court order that the Mother is legally obligated to abide by and the court will enforce, so that I can know when I am going to see the kids.
I was NOT told by my attorney that if I moved then the Parenting Plan would not need to be followed by the mother. I clearly told my attorney my intentions and fear that she may do something like this, but he assured me that the court order we have is currently a long-distance plan (again she created the long distance first).

I am not going to say anything about alienation in court, sorry I brought that into this discussion.
Look, no one is bashing you. Including me. Believe me, I have a very clear view of what it's like to try to enforce a long-distance plan for a noncustodial father. Up close, and personal.

But if the bolded is the goal, then know this:

  • It is likely you'll have to take her to court for multiple contempt of court issues. A single instance could easily be chalked up to a misunderstanding.
  • Your choice to move away is likely to be brought up as the crucial to this issue. "Mom moved first!" may not get you anyplace.
  • Your children are old enough that this may well drag out in court until they both reach the age of majority.
  • This could get really expensive.

I'm not saying Mom is right, at all. But maybe you should reconsider your goals. Is the goal to force Mom's behavior, or to find a way to stay close and connected to your kids so that by the time they are 18 you still have a good relationship with them? Because those two goals may not be the same thing.
 

mistoffolees

Senior Member
Look, no one is bashing you. Including me. Believe me, I have a very clear view of what it's like to try to enforce a long-distance plan for a noncustodial father. Up close, and personal.

But if the bolded is the goal, then know this:

  • It is likely you'll have to take her to court for multiple contempt of court issues. A single instance could easily be chalked up to a misunderstanding.
  • Your choice to move away is likely to be brought up as the crucial to this issue. "Mom moved first!" may not get you anyplace.
  • Your children are old enough that this may well drag out in court until they both reach the age of majority.
  • This could get really expensive.

I'm not saying Mom is right, at all. But maybe you should reconsider your goals. Is the goal to force Mom's behavior, or to find a way to stay close and connected to your kids so that by the time they are 18 you still have a good relationship with them? Because those two goals may not be the same thing.
All of that is true, but one very INEXPENSIVE thing to do is to make sure that all communications are clear. Send important communications by email and bcc yourself. Repeat things ("just to confirm, I will be picking him/her up at 9:00 am**************."

First, it will help to prevent misunderstandings. Second, if ex tries to pull a fast one, you have a paper trail to demonstrate that it's NOT a misunderstanding.
 

majomom1

Senior Member
Look, no one is bashing you. Including me. Believe me, I have a very clear view of what it's like to try to enforce a long-distance plan for a noncustodial father. Up close, and personal.

But if the bolded is the goal, then know this:

  • It is likely you'll have to take her to court for multiple contempt of court issues. A single instance could easily be chalked up to a misunderstanding.
    [*]Your choice to move away is likely to be brought up as the crucial to this issue. "Mom moved first!" may not get you anyplace.
  • Your children are old enough that this may well drag out in court until they both reach the age of majority.
  • This could get really expensive.

I'm not saying Mom is right, at all. But maybe you should reconsider your goals. Is the goal to force Mom's behavior, or to find a way to stay close and connected to your kids so that by the time they are 18 you still have a good relationship with them? Because those two goals may not be the same thing.
Also, the court may not find Mom in contempt, if Mom can show "good cause". Dad moving to MA is a significant change that the court may take into consideration.

I am not bashing OP either, but if I thought my ex were alienating the kids, and I were moving, I would have moved heaven and earth to move closer to them AND I would like to second the long term goal of having a good relationship after the kids turn 18. That is one thing that the judge in our case DID factor in to our case.

The law is written in black and white, but it is not always applied in black and white. Judges have "descretion" and when the parents are playing tit for tat they get angry.
 

NCPFather

Junior Member
Thank you everyone. The info offered here may not always be what we want to hear, but it is nice to have the perspectives of others to take into consideration when dealing with such serious issues.
 

Tex78704

Member
Seems like the only thing that will avoid a major hassle getting your children this Christmas is for you to buy roundtrip tickets.

While more expensive and arguably not right, it is still less expensive and less frustrating than the alternative of escalating this to calling police and still not getting custody of the children for Christmas.

The most equitable solution in the short term is to calculate how much more it is actually costing your ex for transportation now that you have moved further away, and offer to pay the difference.

You can work out the logistics of relitigating this issue next year if you wish. Given CP and the kids now live in GA, Dad now lives in MA, and FL still has jurisdiction, this is something that will need to be ironed out, and which will take time to do so. In the end, FL should probably relinquish its jurisdiction to GA.
 

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