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  1. #1
    jfs2561 is offline Junior Member
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    Exclamation Need Advice for my grandson and daughter please.

    What is the name of your state (only U.S. law)? VT

    My daughter recently returned home (Feb, 08) from leaving a very abusive situation with her boy friend and is now the mom of a 3 week old little boy. She has lived with me since she came back home and is still living with me now.

    My question is in regards to custody mostly. My daughter (who is 19) had no contact with the father (who is 21) throughout the entire pregnancy as he wanted nothing to do with her or her baby as he referred to it.

    Since my grandson was born my daughter and he have been talking and my daughter is convinced he has changed his ways and is planning on going back out to AZ to live with a friend of hers so that the father can get to know the baby.

    His entire family has disowned this sweet, 3 week old boy, and have as of now kicked his father out of their house for accepting him as his son.

    The father's family is well to do and is very manipulative to say the least and they have a lot of control over their children. To be honest I'm surprised this young man left his parent's home as he did. How long that will last is an unanswered question.

    I am seeing some changes in his behavior but I am still really concerned that if she moves back out their with no custody established and his parents' get wind of it, and I'm sure they will, they will try to convince their son into taking the child. That was their first response when the baby's father told his parents and when he refused to do that they demanded that he disown him, when he would not they kicked him out of their home.

    My daughter wants sole custody so that if the situation gets bad she can just leave and not have to worry about what the baby's father could do to stop her. I would rather she not go back out there at all. I'm concerned for her safety as well as my grandson's, but at least would like to know if things got out of hand again she could just leave and would not have to stay there.

    She, my daughter, is also thinking about going back out on her own and leaving my grandson here with me, to check out the situation, as she put it. We have talked about petitioning the court for guardianship for me if she does do that so that at least I can take care of him while he is here with me and she is gone.

    My other concern is that my daughter is bi-polar and is just now getting back onto some of her medication that she could not take while pregnant. She has post partum depression right now and is trying to work though all of that. None of this is helping that out at all. I know it took a lot to get her to see the situation as it was when she left this young man back in Jan. and I worry she will not see it again and it will have a huge impact on my grandsons safety and well being.

    So after that my questions are -

    1)what steps does she (or should she) need to take in order to establish custody when the father is in AZ and she is in VT. Is it possible to get sole custody based on the father's response and how he treated my daughter before she left AZ (he has/had some serious anger issues) or does it depend on other issues as well. If she does get sole custody what rights does the father have? There is truly a safety issue at stake here for this little guy.

    2)how would we (my daughter and I) go about having guardianship established for him without any custody established.

    3)does the custody issue need to be settled first or can they be done together?

    4)what is the difference between temporary guardianship and legal guardianship? Would either of those take away the parental rights of either of my grandson's parents, because that is not what we are trying to do.

    We just want to create a safety net for this little guy and are not sure how to go about it. So any advice would be helpful and appreciated.

    If I left out anything you need to know feel free to ask.

    Thank you in advance
    Last edited by jfs2561; 09-21-2008 at 11:08 PM.
  2. #2
    Ohiogal is offline Senior Member
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    1)what steps does she (or should she) need to take in order to establish custody when the father is in AZ and she is in VT. Is it possible to get sole custody based on the father's response and how he treated my daughter before she left AZ (he has/had some serious anger issues) or does it depend on other issues as well. If she does get sole custody what rights does the father have? There is truly a safety issue at stake here for this little guy.
    She needs to file in VT court to establish custody, visitation and support. Sole custody is not based on the father's response of since before the baby was born or paternity was established as he is NOT legally the father.
    2)how would we (my daughter and I) go about having guardianship established for him without any custody established.
    YOU need to stay out of this quite frankly.
    3)does the custody issue need to be settled first or can they be done together?
    Guardianship could easily be overturned if paternity is established after the fact and the father had not been properly served and given a right to due process.

    4)what is the difference between temporary guardianship and legal guardianship? Would either of those take away the parental rights of either of my grandson's parents, because that is not what we are trying to do.
    You would have prove that neither parent could parent this child OR they both agree to guardianship in order to receive guardianship.

    We just want to create a safety net for this little guy and are not sure how to go about it. So any advice would be helpful and appreciated.
    WE are legal strangers and need to realize our place. YOUR daughter has a child. With that comes a lot of responsibility and she is tied to the baby's daddy forever. She will never be entirely free to just do whatever she wants even with sole custody. Once custody is established she will have to inform the courts EVERY TIME she decides to move and the father can object to the child being moved each and every time. Which opens up a new custody battle possibly.

    Your daughter may have issues but that doesn't change the fact that once paternity is established, dad's rights are EQUAL to hers when it comes to this child. She cannot just push him out of the picture because YOU or even her do not find him appropriate or convenient. Quite frankly if she didn't think it would be convenient to deal with him she should have had an abortion.

    Since she didn't, she needs to grow up and take care of herself and realize that her child has TWO parents and deserves to know and be involved with both of the parents.
    Parents should remember 3 things: Love your kids more than you hate your ex; when you have children the relationship with the other parent is until death; your children determine what type of nursing home you end up in.
    Nothing stated by me should be taken as giving you legal advice or forming an attorney/client relationship.

    Attorney-GAL in Ohio.

    I've removed the knife from my back, polished it, and will one day return it -- long after you think I have forgotten.
  3. #3
    NotClueless is offline Member
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    Did insurance pay for the delivery? Or did she have Medicaid?
  4. #4
    mmmagique is offline Member
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    You should probably contact a local family law attorney. You can probably get most of your questions answered without the vitriol, for a small fee.

    I would be very concerned about my daughter going out to see him, were I you.

    Is her bi-polar managed, or is it erratic? It sounds like that grandbaby is going to need you, legal stranger or not.

    Good luck to you and yours,

    ~Christina
  5. #5
    jfs2561 is offline Junior Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ohiogal View Post
    She needs to file in VT court to establish custody, visitation and support. Sole custody is not based on the father's response of since before the baby was born or paternity was established as he is NOT legally the father.


    YOU need to stay out of this quite frankly.

    Guardianship could easily be overturned if paternity is established after the fact and the father had not been properly served and given a right to due process.



    You would have prove that neither parent could parent this child OR they both agree to guardianship in order to receive guardianship.



    WE are legal strangers and need to realize our place. YOUR daughter has a child. With that comes a lot of responsibility and she is tied to the baby's daddy forever. She will never be entirely free to just do whatever she wants even with sole custody. Once custody is established she will have to inform the courts EVERY TIME she decides to move and the father can object to the child being moved each and every time. Which opens up a new custody battle possibly.

    Your daughter may have issues but that doesn't change the fact that once paternity is established, dad's rights are EQUAL to hers when it comes to this child. She cannot just push him out of the picture because YOU or even her do not find him appropriate or convenient. Quite frankly if she didn't think it would be convenient to deal with him she should have had an abortion.

    Since she didn't, she needs to grow up and take care of herself and realize that her child has TWO parents and deserves to know and be involved with both of the parents.
    It would appear you misread a number of items in my post and I'd like to clear those up.

    I never said I wanted to prove either of them unfit as parents. That is why I asked if there was a difference between temporary guardianship and complete legal guardianship. You answer tells me there is and I will follow up on that. Only looking to make sure that while she is away and the baby is with me he can be taken care of. That is what temporary guardianship is for, as I was told.

    No one said that the baby did not have two parents. I posted that one of the reasons she is wanting to go back to AZ is so that the father can get to know the baby, I went back and reread what I posted and it is in there.

    The concern is should the situation turn into another abusive one what is her best way to be protected and to be able to get herself and the baby out of there quickly.

    Thanks for your time however
  6. #6
    jfs2561 is offline Junior Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by NotClueless View Post
    Did insurance pay for the delivery? Or did she have Medicaid?
    She has medicaid, she is on SSI and has been for some time. I did forget that peice of information. I am also her payee for the SSI.

    Thank you
  7. #7
    jfs2561 is offline Junior Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by mmmagique View Post
    You should probably contact a local family law attorney. You can probably get most of your questions answered without the vitriol, for a small fee.

    I would be very concerned about my daughter going out to see him, were I you.

    Is her bi-polar managed, or is it erratic? It sounds like that grandbaby is going to need you, legal stranger or not.

    Good luck to you and yours,



    ~Christina




    What is a vitiriol? Sorry to seem stupid I just have no idea what that is.

    Her bi polar is not managed at best and right now with her post partum depression it is really erratic.

    I understand the courts will see me as a legal stranger and I can deal with that. I am the one, however, who stuck with her throughout this entire pregnancy when she had to come off her medication to ensure the baby would be as healthy as possible and I am the one who was in the delivery room with her because this baby's father wanted nothing to do with her or the baby.

    I am concerned and I am only trying to find out what she can do to best protect herself and the baby. I realize her best option would be to never to back out there but it's not likely the baby's father will come out this way.

    Thanks for your time and your concern I appreciate that.
  8. #8
    Ohiogal is offline Senior Member
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    It would appear you misread a number of items in my post and I'd like to clear those up.
    Nope. I did not misread.

    I never said I wanted to prove either of them unfit as parents. That is why I asked if there was a difference between temporary guardianship and complete legal guardianship. You answer tells me there is and I will follow up on that. Only looking to make sure that while she is away and the baby is with me he can be taken care of. That is what temporary guardianship is for, as I was told.
    In order for you to get guardianship both parents need to be involved in that decision. NOT just your daughter. Also baby daddy. You would have to serve alleged daddy as well as daughter with any court case. Then daddy could fight you on receiving guardianship. Daughter could give you a POA to insure that you could obtain medical care.

    No one said that the baby did not have two parents. I posted that one of the reasons she is wanting to go back to AZ is so that the father can get to know the baby, I went back and reread what I posted and it is in there.
    Yep> i saw it. But the point being your daughter needs to realize it. You also stated that
    My daughter wants sole custody so that if the situation gets bad she can just leave and not have to worry about what the baby's father could do to stop her.
    That will not enable her to move without the baby's father attempting to stop her from taking the child away from him. Because he is the baby's daddy. Sole custody does NOT change that and does not change the fact that he can petition to stop the child from being moved away from him.

    The concern is should the situation turn into another abusive one what is her best way to be protected and to be able to get herself and the baby out of there quickly.
    Then she should not return. If she does she may find herself living in that state until the child turns 18. Or leaving the child in that state with the baby daddy.
    Parents should remember 3 things: Love your kids more than you hate your ex; when you have children the relationship with the other parent is until death; your children determine what type of nursing home you end up in.
    Nothing stated by me should be taken as giving you legal advice or forming an attorney/client relationship.

    Attorney-GAL in Ohio.

    I've removed the knife from my back, polished it, and will one day return it -- long after you think I have forgotten.
  9. #9
    Ohiogal is offline Senior Member
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    Her bi polar is not managed at best and right now with her post partum depression it is really erratic.
    So when paternity is established, baby daddy could prove it is in the child's best interest to reside with him.

    I understand the courts will see me as a legal stranger and I can deal with that. I am the one, however, who stuck with her throughout this entire pregnancy when she had to come off her medication to ensure the baby would be as healthy as possible and I am the one who was in the delivery room with her because this baby's father wanted nothing to do with her or the baby.
    The baby has an ALLEGED father at this point. IF she wanted the baby's father to be required to support her through out the pregnancy then she should have gotten married before she got impregnated. That would have aided the issue. How do we know that this man is even the baby's father? Legally we don't.


    I am concerned and I am only trying to find out what she can do to best protect herself and the baby. I realize her best option would be to never to back out there but it's not likely the baby's father will come out this way.
    You don't know that. And if baby's father wants to establish paternity he has every right to do so as well as file for custody/visitation and child support.
    Parents should remember 3 things: Love your kids more than you hate your ex; when you have children the relationship with the other parent is until death; your children determine what type of nursing home you end up in.
    Nothing stated by me should be taken as giving you legal advice or forming an attorney/client relationship.

    Attorney-GAL in Ohio.

    I've removed the knife from my back, polished it, and will one day return it -- long after you think I have forgotten.
  10. #10
    Ohiogal is offline Senior Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by jfs2561 View Post
    She has medicaid, she is on SSI and has been for some time. I did forget that peice of information. I am also her payee for the SSI.

    Thank you
    The state is going to open a case against the alleged father to establish paternity and for support -- at least if she still wants to receive benefits. At which point he will most likely file for custody/visitation rights. If you are her payee for the SSI that is an issue -- when was she judged unable to take care of her finances? Why isn't she her own payee? If she cannot manage her finances, how can she manage the care of a baby? Her compentence can be called into question. Does the alleged father have any of those issues?
    Parents should remember 3 things: Love your kids more than you hate your ex; when you have children the relationship with the other parent is until death; your children determine what type of nursing home you end up in.
    Nothing stated by me should be taken as giving you legal advice or forming an attorney/client relationship.

    Attorney-GAL in Ohio.

    I've removed the knife from my back, polished it, and will one day return it -- long after you think I have forgotten.
  11. #11
    jfs2561 is offline Junior Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ohiogal View Post
    The state is going to open a case against the alleged father to establish paternity and for support -- at least if she still wants to receive benefits. At which point he will most likely file for custody/visitation rights. If you are her payee for the SSI that is an issue -- when was she judged unable to take care of her finances? Why isn't she her own payee? If she cannot manage her finances, how can she manage the care of a baby? Her compentence can be called into question. Does the alleged father have any of those issues?
    Being on SSI and having a payee does not necessaraly predispose her to be unable to care for a child.

    I am disabled and had sole custody of both of my children, and at that point in my life I had a payee. The court, at least here, does not see a disability as a reason to not have custody of a child.

    And yes, he has issues, but unlike my daughters' they are not being addressed at all, at least not to my knowledge as of yet.
  12. #12
    jfs2561 is offline Junior Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ohiogal View Post
    So when paternity is established, baby daddy could prove it is in the child's best interest to reside with him.



    The baby has an ALLEGED father at this point. IF she wanted the baby's father to be required to support her through out the pregnancy then she should have gotten married before she got impregnated. That would have aided the issue. How do we know that this man is even the baby's father? Legally we don't.



    You don't know that. And if baby's father wants to establish paternity he has every right to do so as well as file for custody/visitation and child support.
    I never said he could not nor was he not welcome to. All I said is it is not likely he will come out this way from conversations I have had with him in the recent past. My daughter has asked him to move out this way to be closer to the baby and he would rather not. So, nope I don't know it for sure but there is a strong indication that he will not any time soon.
  13. #13
    Ohiogal is offline Senior Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by jfs2561 View Post
    Being on SSI and having a payee does not necessaraly predispose her to be unable to care for a child.

    I am disabled and had sole custody of both of my children, and at that point in my life I had a payee. The court, at least here, does not see a disability as a reason to not have custody of a child.

    And yes, he has issues, but unlike my daughters' they are not being addressed at all, at least not to my knowledge as of yet.

    Prove that he has issues. Rather, your daughter would need to prove that he has issues. You are missing the point though -- I never said she couldn't take care of the child at all -- I asked how she can when she cannot manage her finances if she has a payee. It is something an attorney will bring up. It is something your daughter will need to be able to answer. Unless dad has problems that have been documented by unbiased individuals then they are not going to matter that much.
    Parents should remember 3 things: Love your kids more than you hate your ex; when you have children the relationship with the other parent is until death; your children determine what type of nursing home you end up in.
    Nothing stated by me should be taken as giving you legal advice or forming an attorney/client relationship.

    Attorney-GAL in Ohio.

    I've removed the knife from my back, polished it, and will one day return it -- long after you think I have forgotten.
  14. #14
    LdiJ is offline Senior Member
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    The bottom line is that there is no type of custody that your daughter can have, that will allow her to move back to VT again if things don't work out again. She will be stuck in AZ if she stays there a full 6 months.

    Also, its very very likely that the rich grandparents WILL finance a custody battle for their son. Its quite possible that that is the strategy. To convince her to move to AZ and then after she has been there six months, for the father to try to battle for custody based on her lack of her own home and her bio-polarism.

    Your daughter is making a mistake to even consider this. Once an abuser, always an abuser. There is nothing you can do but try to talk her out of it.
  15. #15
    jfs2561 is offline Junior Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ohiogal View Post
    Prove that he has issues. Rather, your daughter would need to prove that he has issues. You are missing the point though -- I never said she couldn't take care of the child at all -- I asked how she can when she cannot manage her finances if she has a payee. It is something an attorney will bring up. It is something your daughter will need to be able to answer. Unless dad has problems that have been documented by unbiased individuals then they are not going to matter that much.

    My daughter has been on SSI since she was 15 so at that point she had to have a payee. Since she has turned 18 she simply has not had a doctor send social security a note saying she does not need one any longer. She has handled her own money and I keep track of how she is doing with it, she has been fine.

    So that is an issue we can resolve fairly quickly and easily and I appreciate the input on that.

    He has issues that are documented by both the police and (yes biased) friends of my daughter, who had to go and help her pick up her things that he had thrown out when she left him. The clothes he cut to shreds because he was angry, the cell phones he destroyed so she could not call for help, the blanket he slashed to shreds because he was angry and mutltiple other issues.

    Pictures of the above items that were destroyed and he willingly admits he was angry because she left him and he couldn't control what he was doing and really doesn't remember any of it either.

    Not sure how that would stand up in court either but it's there.

    Right now my daughter and he are getting along, she wants him to be a part of the baby's life and he wants to be as well.

    I'm not trying to say this young man cannot see his son or know him, he has the right and my grandson has a right to know his father. I'm just trying to see what are the alternatives for my daughter and my grandson to be in the best possible situation to keep themselves safe, that's all.

    My duaghter is like a lot of women who find themselves in abusive situations, and wants to believe changes are being made and will continue to be made. I, however, have lived through an abusive situation and had to get myself and my children out. I know promises are made and kept briefly, most of the time. I know how hard it is to leave both physically, emotionally and legally sometimes.

    Maybe there is nothing I can do to help her and my grandson should this turn out the same way and maybe there is nothing legally she can do either. That was all I was trying to ask. I'm just concerned for her welfare and that of my grandson. I'm not saying the baby's dad does nto have any rights but I'm also asking what can be done to help keep them safe. Maybe this was not the forum to ask that on, I don't know.

    Thanks for your time, however, I appreciate that.

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