Proposed Parenting Plan

[ChiliPalmer]

What is the name of your state? WA

Background threads for reference here, here and here.

I've an appointment with my attorney next week to go over what we plan to file as our own proposed parenting plan for a major modification, and I'm not sure on a few points. We currently have joint custody, have always had it. My first inclinations are to give their father a generous visitation schedule. My own father's description of him is that he may be a "worthless sonofab... but he's got a good heart and he loves his kids." True on all points. I wanted joint custody originally to preserve the children's relationship with their father and I haven't changed my mind on that; whatever I think of him personally, the children would be better off by having access to their father instead of "Dad" being relegated to a shadow figure who pays a child support check. I'm thinking something such as three weekends a month plus an evening midweek, eight weeks of summer break, alternating holidays and birthdays, first right of refusal on school-free weekdays (snow days, teacher workshop days, random government holidays).

The trouble isn't so much with giving him time (kind of... will explain later), it's with his new wife. Frankly, I think the woman's neurotically obsessive about my children. (I believe it's the second link where I outlined this in better detail.) My ex can no longer have children and she tells everyone, including me, how badly she wants to be a mother and how my children are her only chance at the experience. The ex and I have spent years handling this by ourselves quite nicely - never once a court battle until now. It's my opinion that what she tells the children and the attitude which she displays is not only obsessive but unhealthy for the children and liable to cause continual issues. Giving their father a generous schedule is a problem for me because it also gives the new stepmom ample time to take out her issues on my children.

So that's the conundrum: protecting the children's relationship with their father but also keeping the new stepmom away from them or at least minimising her ability to cause them harm. Some ideas I've had are...

- Request stepmom be barred from all visitations and completely restricted from contacting the children. Considering the sort of time I would prefer to give him, this would be a huge imposition on them; demanding the woman leave for an entire summer and three weekends a month. On the one hand, tough cookies - she brought it on herself. On the other hand, it's harsh - would a judge even agree to it?

- Offer the generous schedule contingent on father taking parenting classes and paying half of therapist's costs for the children. Cross fingers and hope for the best.

- Request reduced visitation schedule, spend next few months mentioning that I'd prefer to improve the deal should the situation improve, hope he takes the hint and puts stepmom's motherly ambitions in check.

Thoughts on that or ideas of your own would be appreciated. Additionally, in reference to the kind of not seeing a problem with giving him plenty of time... he's an alcoholic. Now, I've known the man for fifteen years and he's never been much of a drinker. Maybe the beer at a picnic sort, but certainly not one to keep alcohol on hand in the house. That should give you some frame of reference to how recent a development this is. I first heard about it - from the new wife in fact - just a few months ago and she swore that he was faithfully attending AA meetings. Without having more information, such as whether this was short-term problem for which he immediately sought treatment or whether he's been hiding it for a year or two and not having an easy time staying on the wagon, I'm really torn on what sort of visitation schedule would be best. Offer too little and maybe he'll lose heart and slide backward. Offer too much to someone who may not be totally clean and the children might have to face the consequences. Perhaps some sort of gradually increasing visitation schedule contingent on successful treatment and demonstrated effort on his part?

And sometimes, between the stepmother problems and his alcoholism, I wonder if I'm trying too hard to preserve abundant access to their father when it isn't the best for them. I have faith that, for him, the sun rises and sets in his children's eyes but perhaps my faith is misplaced. Y'all might see more clearly than I do, your feedback is much appreciated.

 

[GrowUp!]

The trouble isn't so much with giving him time (kind of... will explain later), it's with his new wife. Frankly, I think the woman's neurotically obsessive about my children. (I believe it's the second link where I outlined this in better detail.) My ex can no longer have children and she tells everyone, including me, how badly she wants to be a mother and how my children are her only chance at the experience. The ex and I have spent years handling this by ourselves quite nicely - never once a court battle until now. It's my opinion that what she tells the children and the attitude which she displays is not only obsessive but unhealthy for the children and liable to cause continual issues. Giving their father a generous schedule is a problem for me because it also gives the new stepmom ample time to take out her issues on my children.

Oh geez, Edith. You have NOTHING here. You even stated "you THINK." What "you think" is irrelevant. What I see here is a very special kind of bond that his new spouse is building with the children because she is unable to have any of her own. I know...God forbid that a stepparent not only accepts, but LOVES the children. Gee...that's so evil. BTW, that was sarcasm. You have to prove she doing harm. And I haven't seen it.

So that's the conundrum: protecting the children's relationship with their father but also keeping the new stepmom away from them or at least minimising her ability to cause them harm. Some ideas I've had are...

- Request stepmom be barred from all visitations and completely restricted from contacting the children. Considering the sort of time I would prefer to give him, this would be a huge imposition on them; demanding the woman leave for an entire summer and three weekends a month. On the one hand, tough cookies - she brought it on herself. On the other hand, it's harsh - would a judge even agree to it?

Nope. Won't fly. Not even remotely. Nothing you have mentioned even remotely proves that his new spouse is a threat in anyway -- except as a threat to you, personally.

- Offer the generous schedule contingent on father taking parenting classes and paying half of therapist's costs for the children. Cross fingers and hope for the best.

Again, won't fly. There's nothing wrong with Dad. There's no reason for a court to order HIM to parenting classes. Quite frankly, you should be ordered as well, then.

- Request reduced visitation schedule, spend next few months mentioning that I'd prefer to improve the deal should the situation improve, hope he takes the hint and puts stepmom's motherly ambitions in check.

WTF woman!? What makes you think you have this kind of control? because you have a uterus? You have NOTHING to decrease his PARENTING TIME with the kids. His spouse is not party to the order.

Thoughts on that or ideas of your own would be appreciated. Additionally, in reference to the kind of not seeing a problem with giving him plenty of time... he's an alcoholic. Now, I've known the man for fifteen years and he's never been much of a drinker. Maybe the beer at a picnic sort, but certainly not one to keep alcohol on hand in the house. That should give you some frame of reference to how recent a development this is.

Umm...actually it doesn't. So because someone keeps hard liquor in their house, that makes him an "alcoholic." Thanks for the early laugh. You have nothing here too.

I first heard about it - from the new wife in fact - just a few months ago and she swore that he was faithfully attending AA meetings. Without having more information, such as whether this was short-term problem for which he immediately sought treatment or whether he's been hiding it for a year or two and not having an easy time staying on the wagon, I'm really torn on what sort of visitation schedule would be best. Offer too little and maybe he'll lose heart and slide backward. Offer too much to someone who may not be totally clean and the children might have to face the consequences. Perhaps some sort of gradually increasing visitation schedule contingent on successful treatment and demonstrated effort on his part?

Again, you've got zilch here. You mentioned absolutely NOTHING that he had changed and was neglecting the children, driving drunk w/them in the car, etc. You simply were TOLD about it and in fact, if you were never told, this wouldn't be an issue.

And sometimes, between the stepmother problems and his alcoholism, I wonder if I'm trying too hard to preserve abundant access to their father when it isn't the best for them. I have faith that, for him, the sun rises and sets in his children's eyes but perhaps my faith is misplaced. Y'all might see more clearly than I do, your feedback is much appreciated.

You've got control issues. The only REAL problem I see here is you. Plain and simple. Perhaps YOU should have decreased parenting time so you can get some counseling. How does that sound?

Yeah, I didn't think so.

 

[LdiJ]

Ok...I took the time to go back and read over your previous posts.

I think that your situation is complicated enough that you need to be guided by your attorney.

Clearly the stepmother is a serious problem....and the root of the demise of your previously good co-parenting relationship. However I truly don't think that a judge would agree that she couldn't be present in her own home, during parenting time, since she doesn't appear to pose a physical threat to the children.

 

[tigger22472]

What is the name of your state? WA

Background threads for reference here, here and here.

I've an appointment with my attorney next week to go over what we plan to file as our own proposed parenting plan for a major modification, and I'm not sure on a few points. We currently have joint custody, have always had it. My first inclinations are to give their father a generous visitation schedule. My own father's description of him is that he may be a "worthless sonofab... but he's got a good heart and he loves his kids."

K.. even you admit this I'm assuming

True on all points. I wanted joint custody originally to preserve the children's relationship with their father and I haven't changed my mind on that; whatever I think of him personally, the children would be better off by having access to their father instead of "Dad" being relegated to a shadow figure who pays a child support check.

Starting out with a good attitude but seeing as I read this and know where this is going I'm not sre I'm buying it

I'm thinking something such as three weekends a month plus an evening midweek, eight weeks of summer break, alternating holidays and birthdays, first right of refusal on school-free weekdays (snow days, teacher workshop days, random government holidays).

Sounds great

The trouble isn't so much with giving him time (kind of... will explain later), it's with his new wife. Frankly, I think the woman's neurotically obsessive about my children. (I believe it's the second link where I outlined this in better detail.)

It was the 3rd one but ok

My ex can no longer have children and she tells everyone, including me, how badly she wants to be a mother and how my children are her only chance at the experience.

That happens doesn't automatically mean it's a bad thing

The ex and I have spent years handling this by ourselves quite nicely - never once a court battle until now. It's my opinion that what she tells the children and the attitude which she displays is not only obsessive but unhealthy for the children and liable to cause continual issues. Giving their father a generous schedule is a problem for me because it also gives the new stepmom ample time to take out her issues on my children.

Since it's your OPINION it doesn't matter. Has COURT appointed counselor said this? Has anyone else said this other than you or anyone close to you? And you never mentioned that she takes 'issues' out on the children, only that she is attempting to love them as if they were her own.

So that's the conundrum: protecting the children's relationship with their father but also keeping the new stepmom away from them or at least minimising her ability to cause them harm.

You have no PROOF that she has caused them any sort of harm.


Some ideas I've had are...

- Request stepmom be barred from all visitations and completely restricted from contacting the children. Considering the sort of time I would prefer to give him, this would be a huge imposition on them; demanding the woman leave for an entire summer and three weekends a month. On the one hand, tough cookies - she brought it on herself. On the other hand, it's harsh - would a judge even agree to it?

This one made me laugh really really hard. NO, it's NOT going to happen.

- Offer the generous schedule contingent on father taking parenting classes and paying half of therapist's costs for the children. Cross fingers and hope for the best.

A) YOU don't get to insist on him taking parenting classes, and why should he? By your own account he's a good father. As far as therapy, that's iffy. If the court sees it warranted maybe, and even then once they are evaluated if there doesn't seem to be an issue then dad could have the therapist brought in and it could be stopped. What I'm saying is if a therapist states that care is not needed or warranted then you wouldn't get to just keep taking them expecting dad to pay.

- Request reduced visitation schedule, spend next few months mentioning that I'd prefer to improve the deal should the situation improve, hope he takes the hint and puts stepmom's motherly ambitions in check.

It's not up to you to make sre dad 'puts stepmom's motherly ambitions in check.' Again you say he's a good father.

Thoughts on that or ideas of your own would be appreciated. Additionally, in reference to the kind of not seeing a problem with giving him plenty of time... he's an alcoholic. Now, I've known the man for fifteen years and he's never been much of a drinker. Maybe the beer at a picnic sort, but certainly not one to keep alcohol on hand in the house. That should give you some frame of reference to how recent a development this is. I first heard about it - from the new wife in fact - just a few months ago and she swore that he was faithfully attending AA meetings. Without having more information, such as whether this was short-term problem for which he immediately sought treatment or whether he's been hiding it for a year or two and not having an easy time staying on the wagon, I'm really torn on what sort of visitation schedule would be best.

So, you have no proof that he's an alcoholic, just what you have heard. On top of this AGAIN he's a good father... remember? So obviously he's not put the children in danger hence what he does on HIS time is HIS business.


Offer too little and maybe he'll lose heart and slide backward. Offer too much to someone who may not be totally clean and the children might have to face the consequences. Perhaps some sort of gradually increasing visitation schedule contingent on successful treatment and demonstrated effort on his part?


Woman, you've lost it

And sometimes, between the stepmother problems and his alcoholism, I wonder if I'm trying too hard to preserve abundant access to their father when it isn't the best for them. I have faith that, for him, the sun rises and sets in his children's eyes but perhaps my faith is misplaced. Y'all might see more clearly than I do, your feedback is much appreciated.

Your 'something' is misplaced.

Have you gotten the children back?

Have you spoken to them? or to the dad and/or step-mom regarding any of these concerns?

 

[GrowUp!]

Clearly the stepmother is a serious problem....and the root of the demise of your previously good co-parenting relationship. .

I didn't bother reviewing other threads, but how is the stepmom a "serious problem"?
It certainly isn't conveyed as such in this thread.

 

[tigger22472]

I didn't bother reviewing other threads, but how is the stepmom a "serious problem"?
It certainly isn't conveyed as such in this thread.

I think it's in the 3rd link poster gave. However, this poster has MANY issues with different fathers so I give little credence to everything considering we already know there's always 3 sides to a story, one is just generally more towards the real one and I'm not banking a whole lot on this one.

 

[Ohiogal]

The problem OP is you have issues with control. You do not get to dictate who your children get to know, where they go or anything else when they are with their father. The simple truth of the matter is that you trusted this man enough to have sex with him enough times to result in these children. You trusted him enough to actually birth the children. So because you two now don't get along or he has moved on you changed your mind you don't get to decide he is not trustworthy. The courts make those judgment calls because your judgment quite frankly was not good enough to choose a man to father your children who you would be with the rest of your life.
How would you like it if dad decided that you only got to see the kids when your husband wasn't around? That your husband is not allowed to play ANY role in your children's lives and you had to choose between the relationship with him and with your kids because your EX said so?

 

[ChiliPalmer]

Clearly the stepmother is a serious problem....and the root of the demise of your previously good co-parenting relationship. However I truly don't think that a judge would agree that she couldn't be present in her own home, during parenting time, since she doesn't appear to pose a physical threat to the children.

That was my thought on it. It's my first experience with having a family law attorney and my father says some of them will advise you a judge will approve of everything you want, so long as you can afford to pay for the long court fight needed to find out different. I figured it best to get outside opinions on whether such a request would be out of line before I assumed it was a possibility.

I didn't bother reviewing other threads, but how is the stepmom a "serious problem"?
It certainly isn't conveyed as such in this thread.

That's why I provided the other threads. Saved me from making redundant marathon posts and you from wading through the forums to find out the background information. I assure you, everything is well documented. Their case is based on he-said/she-said so logically my best defense is a mountain of proof on paper and a refusal to get into unverifiable claims, and that's been my tactic from the start. If you would prefer to not read the background thread on the stepmother, my documented hard evidence is: phone records of her calling up to six times a day, several days a week, all hours of the day and night while the children are with me; school records and declarations from the children's teachers of her claiming to be their mother and signing herself as their mother, both now that they are in fact married and dating back to when she was only his girlfriend, including the uninvited attendance at an IEP meeting for a child of mine who was no relation to her then-boyfriend and claiming at the meeting she was the child's stepmother (state law requires signature of IEP agreement by all parties in attendance and it was noted that custodial parent had not invited her), and her own declaration signed under penalty of perjury where she informs the courts that she tells the children to call her "Mom" and they are doing so (dated eight days after they went to visit their father for the first time in a year) and has instructed them that they needn't worry about never seeing me again as they have her to be their mother instead and follows this with assurances to the court on why it should be so.

As to the alcoholism, I didn't claim that he's keeps alcohol in the fridge and therefore must be an alcoholic. What I did say is that I've known him for fifteen years and he's never been the sort to so much as keep alcohol in the house, as a frame of reference that this was a recent development which took me by surprise as being out of character. I found out about the alcoholism because his wife was explaining to me why on earth he was in jail. She said that he was an alcoholic, had caused a drunk driving wreck and been sent to jail for it but was seeking treatment and getting much better. So that's documented as well; the wreck, the jail time, the treatment and AA meetings.

However, this poster has MANY issues with different fathers so I give little credence to everything...

One non-pressing question about the second ex and the first custody dispute ever with the original ex. Seems to me that the shocking part isn't that I have had two divorces with children but that I've had two divorces with children yet still managed to avoid all the hoopla and disputes for years.

Ohiogal~
This being a legal forum, I'm sure you have some sort of factual evidence that the entire problem is that he has "moved on" rather than it being a silly assumption based on you not being bothered to read the background links provided. It is somewhat disheartening if you complain on one thread that clarifying information is being nefariously withheld only to refuse to read the clarifying information on the very next thread. Leads one to think that you simply cannot be pleased and will make a complaint no matter what.

If I was looking for a bunch of yes-men answers then I'd be calling my family with these questions, knowing they wouldn't have a legal clue but would tell me what I wanted to hear just to make me happy. I'm not doing that because I don't want to be appeased and patted on the head - I want straight information from non-invested parties. Being told what is a stupid idea, what's irrelevant and what doesn't have nearly the impact for which I was hoping may disappoint me but will be much more USEFUL than just being told what people think I want to hear. Don't be concerned that I'll toss a tantrum if someone dares tell me the honest legalities. Far better to have strangers on a forum tell me I had a stupid idea than the judge saying so in an actual hearing on the matter. But I do ask that people at least make an effort to have understood the information offered before claiming to have the legal insight into the questions. I've devoted time to reading back through the threads and I know y'all waste a lot of volunteered time on people who really just wanted to vent about the ex. I've seen the complaints about irrelevant information, too-long posts, posters having to dig up prior threads so others would understand what the OP was wailing about and the frustration at those who just won't listen when given sound advice. You have my sympathy; that has to be annoying. I'm making an effort to avoid those annoyances by keeping my threads to the point, with only information relevant to that question, by offering background threads so no one has to dig them up or wade through redundancy and answering anything I've managed to leave out. Please work with me here.

 

[Ohiogal]

Try rereading -- I never said he has moved on. It was thrown out there as a reason why you two are no longer together and he has remarried. The fact that there is a stepmother suggests HIGHLY that he has moved on. And no one said that is the ENTIRE problem. I also said you have control issues. That is a big factor here and that is how it will come across in court with your suggestions.
The legal fact remains the same -- you do not get to dictate who HE can take the children around. YOu have NO rights to force stepmom out of the picture anymore than your ex can state that your husband cannot be around the children when you have them.

 

[Shay-Pari'e]

Chilli,

Why are you so concerned about the step mom, and not the fact that your *X* got a DUI and caused a wreck?

If anything, I would be more concerned with wanting the *X* to be ordered not to drink during visitations, rather than to request the step to leave her own home.

 

[ChiliPalmer]

Chilli,

Why are you so concerned about the step mom, and not the fact that your *X* got a DUI and caused a wreck?

If anything, I would be more concerned with wanting the *X* to be ordered not to drink during visitations, rather than to request the step to leave her own home.

I'm not sure what I can ask to be ordered by the court. I've brainstormed some ideas which I wanted to know if they were feasible and I'm soliciting any better ideas from people who do know what can be ordered. Keep in mind that despite being twice divorced I have zero experience with how the courts run. The original parenting plan was one of our own manufacture and every question or concern since then has been resolved by picking up the phone and calling the other parent.

I think it isn't that the stepmom concerns me more so much as their father concerns me less. I've known him for so long... the alcoholism took me by surprise. It's out of character. I did wonder if I was putting too much faith in him and how well I know him - if I was assuming this must be a minor and temporary problem he'll put behind him very quickly and which the children won't even notice, giving him too much benefit of the doubt. What I need is more information: how long has he had this problem, when did he start treatment, what sort of treatment is he getting, how successful has it been thus far. Can I request that information as part of the parenting plan? What sort of requests are usual when one parent has an alcohol problem?

As to the stepmom, the interference is unhealthy and I know the courts will frown on it but I don't know what steps I need to take or requests I ought to make as a result of it. I was throwing out ideas in the hopes someone could tell me if they were good or bad ones, and maybe suggest a few better ideas.

Try rereading -- I never said he has moved on. It was thrown out there as a reason why you two are no longer together and he has remarried. The fact that there is a stepmother suggests HIGHLY that he has moved on. And no one said that is the ENTIRE problem.

You never said it, you said it, you said it and it's relevant but probably not a big deal. Pick one, please, you don't make it very clear what I'm supposed to be clarifying. Going for the "cover all bases" answer, I haven't spoken to him in years unless it was to talk about the children, we haven't lived in the same state since the divorce and if the presence of a stepmother suggests that he has moved on then, tit for tat, the presence of a stepfather suggests that he isn't the only one to have done so. I would certainly HOPE that he's moved on after all this time and chances are, considering the above, that I did so a while ago.

I also said you have control issues. That is a big factor here and that is how it will come across in court with your suggestions.
The legal fact remains the same -- you do not get to dictate who HE can take the children around. YOu have NO rights to force stepmom out of the picture anymore than your ex can state that your husband cannot be around the children when you have them.

The information on how it will come across in court is valuable and appreciated, exactly what I was looking for. Seeing as you're repeating the snap judgement made despite being called on not bothering to acclimate yourself to the background, I'll see your control issues and raise you one inability to admit it when you've made a mistake. If you have the time to read the stepmother information, I'd be interested in hearing your suggestions on what would be a better approach to the parenting plan once you know the info on the stepmom issue. It would be helpful, as I've gotten affirmation that strict no contact would be asking too much but not a lot of redirection on what would be a better request. What's typical in such a situation? Further suggestions are much appreciated.

 

[Ohiogal]

Redirection on stepmother issues is dealt with by dealing with the father. Stepmom is NOT a party to the parenting plan and WILL NOT be a party to the parenting plan. What needs spelled out is the roles of mom and dad apparently. When those roles are defined then stepmom is not a problem. But you cannot dictate that stepmom do ANYTHING in the parenting plan as she is not a party to it. The only two parties to a parenting plan are you and dad.