visitation day vs. overnight

[COL323]

What is the name of your state?What is the name of your state?What is the name of your state?What is the name of your state? NY

My ex-husband and I have been divorced 6 years, separated 8 yrs. We have shared custody, with approx 45-50% overnights with Dad, 50-55% overnights with me. We have one son, who is now 12 yrs old. Our agreement was very loose concerning visitation and we purposely did not put in detail concerning exact timeframes for visitation. Over the years, especially during the last four, my son has spent his school holiday days, after-school time (2:30 - 5 pm on Dad's days), sick days, unscheduled summer days, after day camp time in summer (3 or 4 - 5 pm on Dad's days) and overnights when Dad is on business or vacation during his scheduled time with our son- all with me. I have been doing the picking up and taking our son to his dad's on his dad's overnights. Taking on the running around and the precious after-school/break/sick time has helped in creating consistency and stability in our son's life, since my schedule never changes, has moved him out of the afterschool care, and has maximized time with his dad, because dad doesn't have to shuffle around half the time. Dad recently got remarried and wants his new wife (not himself) to spend more of this time that I traditionally spent with our son during these "undocumented" timeframes that just verbally existed all these years. My son and I did not want to change the schedule and my son preferred to spend the time with me rather than her. Dad claims our agreement infers a 24hr period for "his" evenings vs "my" evenings. The language specifically states overnights only, and does not address the day time nor what time overnights begin. Well, then, in Aug 2004, Dad got mad at me over a religious issue (my son had a bible in his house that I gave him, and, I asked permission for our son to keep it at Dad's house. He initially agreed, then five months later, thought our son was getting too Christian, and returned the bible. He was very angry and physically pushed me out of his house when I insisted that the three of us meet about this issue (at my son's request) and about his rights to worship God. I did not try to fight the bible issue- I just took it home. Since that date, he has not allowed me in or on his premises and, against my son's and my will, has forcefully changed the schedule so that my son has little or no contact with me at all on those times I mentioned above, that were based on verbal agreement. My son now spends that time with either his father's new wife, or at an after-school program on "dad's" days. They won't let him call me when he wants to, or read an email if I send one. We don't call or email much, but, my son always had that freedom before. Dad is hostile and generally abusive when we talk on the phone or email. I just want to get along, and this is fraying my nerves. It has devastated my son, and me. He begs his father to change back to the old schedule, but he refuses. I have retained an attorney, and we are working on this plus a child support issue. My question is, is there anything I can do in the meantime, to restore some or all of what we had so successfully in place until this event. My son is so unhappy, and so am I. Sorry for the long post. Thanks.

 

[casa]

Glad to hear you are going back to court, it sounds like a more concrete time share agreement (in writing in the court order) would be helpful here. You may want to check to see if you can have the order also state that if the son is not with his father, that you have the option to have him before anyone else. That way you can have your son be with you when father is not available instead of an aftercare program or step-parent.

Good Luck

 

[tigger22472]

Glad to hear you are going back to court, it sounds like a more concrete time share agreement (in writing in the court order) would be helpful here. You may want to check to see if you can have the order also state that if the son is not with his father, that you have the option to have him before anyone else. That way you can have your son be with you when father is not available instead of an aftercare program or step-parent.

Good Luck

Although I'm a big advocate for First Rights of Refusal I dont' always agree that the step-parent should be included in that. No, it's not right if your son is spending all his time with step-mom and not his dad when at his home but then again it's not hurting him and it doesn't hurt to stay with him.

OP, your case sounds MUCH like my husband's case. They have 50/50 that was very vague (two weeks in one house, two weeks in another) that really only spelled out holidays(not school breaks) and that's it. He filed for a modification on several things but a lot of it is to simply make things more clear. He specified times, put in things for contacts(meaning each parent had the right to call at least every other day plus on special events). There is a provision that absent an emergency or urgent situation that communication is to be done through e-mail between the parents. First Rights are in there too... however it specifies that "Parties are required to inform each other if they need to have outside care for child for more then 2 hours, utilizing First Rights of Refusal". There is nothing wrong with getting things more clear.

 

[COL323]

Thank you for your reply- would you happen to know if there is anything I can do before this goes through court? He's really dragging his feet, it has already been over three months, and there's no telling when it will be over.
Thanks.

 

[casa]

tigger, the OP stated that the son did not want to be in the stepmothers care when father was gone. Also, IMO it's more appropriate for a bio parent (father OR mother) to have a child, than a step-parent. Is it 'hurting' him? Well if the OP is believed it is upsetting to him. And even if it isn't 'hurting' him, it still shouldn't be a step-mother's right above the mother!

 

[tigger22472]

Until you actually go to court all you can really do is talk to your son in a logical way in which he is able to obtain his own opinions so that he understands that you aren't NOT contacting him at dad's because you don't want to.. etc. Tell him if he hears anything that makes him uncomfortable about you to not hesitate to ask you about it, that you'd rather he ask then worry about something. This is a touchy way of doing things as you don't want to say anything 'bad' against dad but let your son come to his own conclusions. For example... My kids were like 8 adn 10 and their bio would tell them that he didn't see them because I wouldn't let him. They told me this and my answer to them was..."when he was seeing you, who took you all but twice"...."who picked you up all but once?"....They're answer was me both times. So then I just said..."ok.. now think about it, if I didn't want you to see him would I do that?"... "No, Mommy"... See what I mean?

If your court order doesn't say he HAS to let you contact or anything on his time then until there is there's little you can do.

 

[tigger22472]

tigger, the OP stated that the son did not want to be in the stepmothers care when father was gone. Also, IMO it's more appropriate for a bio parent (father OR mother) to have a child, than a step-parent. Is it 'hurting' him? Well if the OP is believed it is upsetting to him. And even if it isn't 'hurting' him, it still shouldn't be a step-mother's right above the mother!

I understand the son didnt' want to be with the step-mom but as children we all had to do things we didn't want to and it is my belief by not letting or making him stay with step-mom then it's disregarding the step-parent and that doesnt' help the relationship. I realize that step-parents don't have legal rights, however, they do deserve respect and by disregarding a step-parent that isn't showing respect or showing the child that although the step-parent might not have "legal' rights to the child they are a part of the household NEARLY as important as the actual parent.

 

[COL323]

Thanks to both of you for your replies. I agree with both of you on various points. I agree that it is not hurting my son in the damaging kind of way by being with his step-mom instead of me. I also agree in every way that my son should respect his step-mom, and I should respect my ex-husband's new family. And I do. They have plenty of visitation with 50% overnights, and I believe there are many opportunities in that time for bonding to take place. I also agree with Casa that a child always benefits (unless extreme situation) when spending their growing up years with their natural mom and dad vs step-parents (again, assuming relatively normal parents!). I have worked so hard these past years in creating a work schedule and lifestyle that could allow me to actively participate in my son's school life, and in those critical unstructured times, i.e. after-school, breaks, etc.. I just work hard to be "the mom" I have always wanted to be- there when he is sick, attending PTO meetings, having a snack and a shoulder ready for after-school, getting him fed and dressed for football practice, being a Scouter (mom) while he advances through the Boy Scouts, helping with homework, doing our bible reading, making sure he practices his drums. You get the picture. It is a short and precious time, these years, and as his mom, I want to savor every moment. I feel like that time has been stolen from us, and, I just want it back. Step-mom has her own son she is raising, and has plenty of time to "blend" the new family. I don't want her time, I just want mine back.

I have a new contract proposal written- so detailed it is 20 pages long! My attorney says my ex will probably hit the roof, but I don't want to take any chances with loopholes! Sadly enough, the trust we had in mutually cooperating is gone, and now, we had to dot the i's and cross the t's.

Our original agreement does specify each parent is not to hinder access and communication with our son while in the other's care. It also specifies right of first refusal. My ex is simply ignoring it.

I've been working real hard at keeping my son's sense of freedom to talk to me open. We have also met with the social worker at school, and a couple of teachers have taken him under their wing, so he can have some "objective" people to talk to.

The hard part for me is trying not to react in anger when my son comes home with his stories from Dad's about the things they say about me, and the way he is being manipulated. The last thing I want is for my son to be the proverbial divorce statistic- feeling caught in the middle.

Thank you for the advice and for your experience in similar situation. How long did it take for your husband's modification to go through, Tigger?

 

[tigger22472]

The hard part for me is trying not to react in anger when my son comes home with his stories from Dad's about the things they say about me, and the way he is being manipulated. The last thing I want is for my son to be the proverbial divorce statistic- feeling caught in the middle.

Thank you for the advice and for your experience in similar situation. How long did it take for your husband's modification to go through, Tigger?

I will tell you that in my case this past April I sat down with my children to let them know their bio father was contacted about our step-parent adoption(he didn't respond) and I mentioned that I had always tried to not say anything bad about my ex in front of them. My 11 year old said..."mommy, I've never heard you say anything bad about him". I was very happy because it meant the fact my tongue was bit in two several times was worth it..LOL

As far as my husband he filed for the modification on Sept. 29th. They were supposed to go to court on the 10th of this month but ex's lawyer was sick so they go tomorrow. The ex isn't happy at all about it. She wanted to keep everything very vauge and still have control. Your situation is MUCH like his. He basically got a long with her, as did I, but that was as long as we rolled over to everything she wanted. Everytime my husband would ask for something she would refuse. It was her way or no way. He went to her with a much smaller modification in June and she actually agreed to everything. She even convinced him not to take it to court promising to go with what she'd promised. Two days later she went back on her word. We (he and I)spent the next two months really going over things, big or small, that had happened over the years that he simply accepted although didn't agree with. We made sure EVERYTHING was in the mod that he could think of. I say 'we' because I drew up the motion and parenting plan for him to file. We tried to put everything from the past and look into the future as to avoid having to do this AGAIN. In some senses she's gotten better as she sees he's serious this time and so she's watched her P's and Q's MOSTLY as to not give him more leverage but it's too late.

If you continue to accept things that he does without showing him you are standing up for yourself it will do nothing but continue to get worse. They will push the envelope that much more. My husband's ex has flat out told him that what goes on in her house with their daughter is none of his concern and that she doesn't have to ask his permission to do anything such as putting her in activities and sports. Husband is having the judge define 'joint legal custody' in front of her tomorrow to prove her wrong.

 

[COL323]

Tigger- thank you so much for your reply. It's eerie, some of the parallels.

If you continue to accept things that he does without showing him you are standing up for yourself it will do nothing but continue to get worse. They will push the envelope that much more. My husband's ex has flat out told him that what goes on in her house with their daughter is none of his concern and that she doesn't have to ask his permission to do anything such as putting her in activities and sports

You are so right. My ex has said the exact same thing. He literally sees our son's life as divided in two. He refuses to discuss activities that occur on his overnights like scouts or sports or even vacations (like where they are going with our son) with me, even though we have always discussed these things, need to discuss these things.

Our new favorite bible verse is Proverbs 17:12, let a bear robbed of her whelps meet a man, rather than a fool in his folly. I am fighting now! The hard part is slogging through the very slow legal process.

Our lawyers want us to go to co-parenting counseling prior to actually going to court. What are your thoughts on this? I'm just concerned that my ex is at such a hostile place right now, that I can't imagine us working through such a "gentle" mediated process. But, whereas, I don't want to waste time chasing my tail, I want to give this a fair shot, if it is worthwhile.

It is so interesting to hear about your similar experience. Good luck to your husband- keep me "posted" with how it all goes.

thank you, Tigger!

 

[tigger22472]

You are so right. My ex has said the exact same thing. He literally sees our son's life as divided in two. He refuses to discuss activities that occur on his overnights like scouts or sports or even vacations (like where they are going with our son) with me, even though we have always discussed these things, need to discuss these things.


Our lawyers want us to go to co-parenting counseling prior to actually going to court. What are your thoughts on this? I'm just concerned that my ex is at such a hostile place right now, that I can't imagine us working through such a "gentle" mediated process. But, whereas, I don't want to waste time chasing my tail, I want to give this a fair shot, if it is worthwhile.

It is so interesting to hear about your similar experience. Good luck to your husband- keep me "posted" with how it all goes.

thank you, Tigger!

Well, my husband's ex has told him that he doesn't have to take the child to sports that SHE TELLS him (not confers about) she putting her in if he disagrees. My husband does not disagree on them on empty basis'. His interest is overloading his child with things. There have been not only behavior problems in the past but even a past problem with falling asleep in class and such. My husband feels this needs to be fully addressed before putting her in activites that take up several months and is demanding. She in turn then enrolls the child anyways and allows the child to go to these activities the two weeks she at her home. The problem with this is that the child then wants to know why Dad's not letting her go on his time but yet Mom lets her. The last issue he had a little better explanation for the child as he had made her a deal one or the other in sports and she chose. My husband has told his ex REPEATEDLY that although she's a good parent(and she is even if he doesn't agree with everything she does, he doesn't have to) but she's not a good co-parent. When there are issues mom's been caught lying saying things that happen in our home doesn't happen in hers. My husband goes to her, not to get guidence, but to show his daughter that her parents are sticking together and that she can't 'play' her parents. That doesn't work when you have someone either A unwilling to participate or B isn't truthfull.

As far as mediation, I say go for it. Either your ex will go in there and show his true colors or he'll go in there and agree to things he might not otherwise done so that he doesn't look like a 'bad guy'. Those things then go into the order and it will be legally required to follow that court order even if he doesn't like it. If he later tries to change it, or go to court saying he wants it changed, you will not only have the court order but the mediators report showing he agreed to it in the first place and he will have to have a significant change of circumstances in order to change it. "I just agreed to settle things" won't cut it.