Arizona horror story

[spleenk]

Arizona

Never married, one child born 1990. in 1997 we split for good and agreed that I pay $300/month, she gets primary custody and all tax deductions, I pick him up to begin my custody, she picks him up to begin hers. I would get him every-other weekend and extra days during school vacations, not to mention anytime she would swap weekends with or without my consent.

We did this for 7 years and she never indicated she needed or wanted more money. She bought a new house in '97 and over the years paid for landscaping, bought new furniture (twice, since a new dog chewed up the first set) and a new truck in 2001. Between Sept 2002 and December 2003 she had two 10 day vacations to Hawaii, a long weekend in Cabo, and breast enhancement implants. Never any signs for me to suspect she's in financial straits by any means.

In May 2004, she tells me out of the blue she wants $500/month since the AZ Child Support Guidelines calculate that and "what I've been paying isn't what I should have been paying".

She gives me a copy of the Guidelines and I calculate $438/month plus I am to get 57% of the tax deductions. I'm very OK with increasing the monthly but not above what the calculations would be and I wanted the tax deductions I was entitled to. She refuses to agree to this and then sues me for back support for 7 years and "sole and controlling" custody.

As her Affidavit of Financial Info shows she's $32,000 in debt with an $18K second mortgage(her 3rd second mtg in 6 years), $9700 in credit card debt, $2700 in overdraft protection debt and a $2K loan from daddy for the atty. To make this the total joke that it is her job title is "Jr Financial Analyst" for a major food service company.

Negotiations go on and after a frustrating battle with my own atty, we settle on Joint Legal Custody, I pay $4000 in arrears and $466/month. We pay our own atty's. She also gets 3 of the remaining 5 tax deductions and the judge is to decide if she will pick him up after my Custody weekends.

As per AZ Rev Statutes Title 25, she could only go back 3 years and even then it says the judge "may" go back that far depending on the "relevant circumstances". They calculated $6743 in arrears for 3 years. I felt I owe nothing and it was relevant we had an agreement and that $300/month was fair support along with the tax deducts and looked forward to my day in court, which I never got thanks to my atty.

In his initial contact with her atty, my atty asked for her recent pay stubs indicating her raise. He never got them and never followed up on it. He had her AFI yet he never accurately calculated the monthly Child Support. I've been using the online calculator and it has been $454/month.

AZ online Child Support calc:
http://www.supreme.state.az.us/childsup/

This monthly figure would decrease with her raise but we never got that info, thanks to my cracker-jack atty. Her atty told mine it was $466/ month and he actually believed it without verifying it. I find out later they were using her monthly income of $3000 instead of $3208 as indicated on her original AFI. Thanks, Matlock.

My lawyer refused go to trial even after I repeatedly pressed the issue. He said it wasn't cost effective and I told him it wasn't about the money but the principle and I was willing to risk the $10K cost of the trial. He still refused. I find out later he had to be somewhere else the day of the trial even after he said he was "open" that day during my first consultation with him.

We actually had a teleconference into the court room at the time of my trial to get the settlement on record and I will go to my grave firmly believing the other atty knew mine couldn't physically attend so they never had to give an inch. I lost all barganing position with this ass and it cost me my day in court to defend my name.

Added bonuses to this fiasco:

She gave up her claim to "sole and controlling" custody because in her exact words: "they wanted me to take classes and give interviews" to prove it is justified.

She refused to go to Expedited Services where she and I would meet with a Court appointed mediator to work out the back support in place of a trial. Another demonstration of her refusal to cooperate.

She never attended the mandatory "Parent Information Program" class required in any Family Court filings. It states right on the form the judge can rule in default against you and/or find you in contempt. When I asked for a default ruling, the judge denied it and ordered her to attend within 60 days. I find it incredibly mind-boggling she can make all these frivolous claims against my name but doesn't have to meet minimum court requirements. I can't help but think if I had not attended the class my balls would be hanging from the judge's belt right now.

She refused to give me his medical records when I asked and in an email she explicitly states "I don't need to see them". I really wanted the judge to see this email as it demonstrates the "liberties" she exercised that violate the Guidelines and to show she wasn't as respectful of my rights as a father.

On her AFI, she listed $135/month for our son's braces which implies she'll get them. She even included a brochure of the 'Invisalign' style braces in her AFI. It's been 6 months since she filed, she has the $4K and a 50% increase in monthly Support and still no braces. I think she only included this to get sympathy from the court.


I'm not angry about the monthly calculation except it should have included her raise. I am disgusted my atty failed to give me basic competent representation and at $250/hour was clearly not interested in my rights or best interests and cost me my day in court. At a minimum I should be paying a fair monthly, have 3 of the 5 tax deducts and she should be picking him up, and maybe pay nothing in back support.

I had agreed to give her my tax deductions but since I was found in arrears, I am not eligible to go back and get them now. How is this fair?

Maybe I'm wrong in thinking our agreement was legal, but she should have had some responsiblity for that as well. I was always there for my son and never missed a monthly payment in 7 years and always honored her requests for other things. Our son has never wanted a day in his life with a garage full of toys and all the love and support that he needs. She never asked for more and she lived well enough that I never had any idea she needed more.

Thanks for letting me vent. As soon as all of this is official, I will visit the Bar and see if my atty acted appropriatley because if he did then this system is sorely in need of an overhaul.

cj

 

[rmet4nzkx]

Is this a question or an update on your other thread from earlier this year on the same subject?

 

[bulldogg70]

I am extremely knowledgeable about Az family court. What you described and what the court calls for is two different stories. If you have an established child support payment, they cannot go back the past three years, after establishment of which is being paid then change the difference under “???” and call it in the arrears, it would get thrown out immediately, IT IS NOT ALLOWED. Az Title 25 has new revisions for this year, but does not support what you are saying. What county is this coming from? I would suggest you go to www.azfathersrights.com which is a local organization out of maricopa county. From what you described it just cannot happen in Az.

 

[spleenk]

"Is this a question or an update on your other thread from earlier this year on the same subject?"

I suppose it's an update. Or a warning to anyone else with nothing in writing.

bulldog:
We didn't have anything established through the courts for the last 7 years, we had only a verbal agreement between the two of us.

And your link does not work, BTW. Please reply with another link as I am very interested in a site like that.

Thanks

 

[spleenk]

and I'm in Maricopa county

 

[bulldogg70]

The cite is http://www.arizonafathersrights.com/ . I just checked it an it is up and running.

Now, if there was no child support established at all and it was a mutual agreement, and there was not an order for it, then good luck on there side. The courts would not accept her side on that. ANyway, for you to be in the arrears means you accepted their agreement to put you in the arrears, unless it was assigned by the court, I do not know why you would do that. I have found several situation where people do put themselves in the arrears like that, does not make sense to me.

I am sure you might find relief at that cite I mentioned, it appears they are having a meeting this Tuesday, it would probably be of a great interest for you to attend it.

 

[Gracie3787]

The cite is http://www.arizonafathersrights.com/ . I just checked it an it is up and running.

Now, if there was no child support established at all and it was a mutual agreement, and there was not an order for it, then good luck on there side. The courts would not accept her side on that. ANyway, for you to be in the arrears means you accepted their agreement to put you in the arrears, unless it was assigned by the court, I do not know why you would do that. I have found several situation where people do put themselves in the arrears like that, does not make sense to me.

I am sure you might find relief at that cite I mentioned, it appears they are having a meeting this Tuesday, it would probably be of a great interest for you to attend it.

Bulldogg, maybe OP is using the term "arrears" instead of "retroactive". I have found that quite often people use the terms interchangebly, and they are not.
From what I've learned arrears are monies that were court ordered but not paid, and retroactive support is an amount of money the court can order at the time a support order is first established. Just a thought.
Gracie

 

[spleenk]

I wasn't in on the negotiations between the atty's. I first heard the two atty's argue the word "arrears" during the teleconference we had in lieu of the trial. It sounded like the atty's hadn't agreed to the exact wording during negotiations and since my atty couldn't be there he hung me out to dry to get this settled at that moment and relented on the issue.

Bulldog:
"Now, if there was no child support established at all and it was a mutual agreement, and there was not an order for it, then good luck on there side."

It was a verbal agreement between us with no court involvement to date. I have a few emails where she "indicates" we had an agreement, but nothing specific about the terms.

Why didn't my atty see it as you do? Is a verbal agreement enough for a court to uphold? He's been in Family Law for 30 years, so he says. He led me to think the court wouldn't care what we agreed to and would order me to pay the retroactive amount plus her atty fees. At first I agreed to his advice but after I found out I was losing tax deductions and he didn't include her current wage in the calculation I wanted the trial and I didn't care what it cost in the end.

 

[LdiJ]

I wasn't in on the negotiations between the atty's. I first heard the two atty's argue the word "arrears" during the teleconference we had in lieu of the trial. It sounded like the atty's hadn't agreed to the exact wording during negotiations and since my atty couldn't be there he hung me out to dry to get this settled at that moment and relented on the issue.

Bulldog:
"Now, if there was no child support established at all and it was a mutual agreement, and there was not an order for it, then good luck on there side."

It was a verbal agreement between us with no court involvement to date. I have a few emails where she "indicates" we had an agreement, but nothing specific about the terms.

Why didn't my atty see it as you do? Is a verbal agreement enough for a court to uphold? He's been in Family Law for 30 years, so he says. He led me to think the court wouldn't care what we agreed to and would order me to pay the retroactive amount plus her atty fees. At first I agreed to his advice but after I found out I was losing tax deductions and he didn't include her current wage in the calculation I wanted the trial and I didn't care what it cost in the end.

Honestly, your attorney was right about the prior agreement, it wouldn't have held any water....ands its possible that a judge might have ordered retroactive support. I have seen it happen. Your attorney is more likely to know what your judge would have done than anyone else.

As far as the past tax exemptions are concerned, you didn't necessarily lose anything there. It wasn't your automatic right to have the exemptions every other year. The IRS regs are very clear that the exemption goes to the parent with whom the child resides more than 51% of the time. State judge's often ignore the IRS regs (which they don't technically have the authority to do) and award it to the non-custodial parent every other year, but that doesn't automatically happen and isn't guaranteed to happen.

As far as I can tell, the only questionable thing in your settlement was the issue of arrearages..everything else seems pretty normal...and again, your attorney knows better than we do what your particular judge would have been likely to do.

 

[bulldogg70]

I wasn't in on the negotiations between the atty's. I first heard the two atty's argue the word "arrears" during the teleconference we had in lieu of the trial. It sounded like the atty's hadn't agreed to the exact wording during negotiations and since my atty couldn't be there he hung me out to dry to get this settled at that moment and relented on the issue.

Bulldog:
"Now, if there was no child support established at all and it was a mutual agreement, and there was not an order for it, then good luck on there side."

It was a verbal agreement between us with no court involvement to date. I have a few emails where she "indicates" we had an agreement, but nothing specific about the terms.

Why didn't my atty see it as you do? Is a verbal agreement enough for a court to uphold? He's been in Family Law for 30 years, so he says. He led me to think the court wouldn't care what we agreed to and would order me to pay the retroactive amount plus her atty fees. At first I agreed to his advice but after I found out I was losing tax deductions and he didn't include her current wage in the calculation I wanted the trial and I didn't care what it cost in the end.

This is what the Judges historically do in Maricopa county. Please follow; If support has never bee established at all and you go to court to start Child Support the court will start a temp child support order on that date. Let’s call that date January 2, 2006, and it is usually a low ball figure, during that same temp hearing the Judge will order you to Expedited Services. At Expedited Services they will review all of your financial incomes, rental property, day care, etc. The process cycle for Expedited Services is usually 2 to 4 months. Once Expedited Services makes a calculation based on the information gather they will file a report to the Judge, and provide the other party and you a copy of it. That report will be retroactive from January 2, 2006 although it may be May before it is actually enforced. So, if on the temp order you are paying $200.00 dollars a month, but the Expedited Services says you owe $600.00 dollars per month, you will now be in the arrears $2000.00 dollars plus the next moths support. Once Expedited Services releases their report the Judge signs it as an order. However, following Arizona Rules of Civil Procedure you have 30 days to object. When you object an Expedited or Conciliation Service report the Court will move to a conference, which is a mini hearing. If you have valid, legal arguments many adjustment can be made right there. However, if things are complicated you will move for a full hearing.
Now, this is where I differ from many people here about attorney’s. The Maricopa Court system has one of the best self-help centers ever, Also I attend a lot of the Maricopa Bar Meetings. I personally think Family Lawyers, a large majority of them, are more interested in the billing hours then the case. It just appears time after time after time I hear more stories like yours from people who use attorneys. Anyway, IF there was NEVER any support ordered from any court, ask your attorney where did they come up with an arrears agreement. As him to show you a Memorandum of Points and Authority where they can unilaterally assign an un-designated amount of support. I know the state will and can come after you for support services of the state if the parent is known, however, even that has a procedure that must be followed.
However, there is one sad part of this. Your attorney, on your behalf, can negotiate what would be considered a fair and reasonable agreement with the other party. My friend, from the information which you provided on this board I think that this is what probably happened. Also, if this agreement was approved in open court, it will now stand, because you signed off on it.

 

[LdiJ]

This is what the Judges historically do in Maricopa county. Please follow; If support has never bee established at all and you go to court to start Child Support the court will start a temp child support order on that date. Let’s call that date January 2, 2006, and it is usually a low ball figure, during that same temp hearing the Judge will order you to Expedited Services. At Expedited Services they will review all of your financial incomes, rental property, day care, etc. The process cycle for Expedited Services is usually 2 to 4 months. Once Expedited Services makes a calculation based on the information gather they will file a report to the Judge, and provide the other party and you a copy of it. That report will be retroactive from January 2, 2006 although it may be May before it is actually enforced. So, if on the temp order you are paying $200.00 dollars a month, but the Expedited Services says you owe $600.00 dollars per month, you will now be in the arrears $2000.00 dollars plus the next moths support. Once Expedited Services releases their report the Judge signs it as an order. However, following Arizona Rules of Civil Procedure you have 30 days to object. When you object an Expedited or Conciliation Service report the Court will move to a conference, which is a mini hearing. If you have valid, legal arguments many adjustment can be made right there. However, if things are complicated you will move for a full hearing.
Now, this is where I differ from many people here about attorney’s. The Maricopa Court system has one of the best self-help centers ever, Also I attend a lot of the Maricopa Bar Meetings. I personally think Family Lawyers, a large majority of them, are more interested in the billing hours then the case. It just appears time after time after time I hear more stories like yours from people who use attorneys. Anyway, IF there was NEVER any support ordered from any court, ask your attorney where did they come up with an arrears agreement. As him to show you a Memorandum of Points and Authority where they can unilaterally assign an un-designated amount of support. I know the state will and can come after you for support services of the state if the parent is known, however, even that has a procedure that must be followed.
However, there is one sad part of this. Your attorney, on your behalf, can negotiate what would be considered a fair and reasonable agreement with the other party. My friend, from the information which you provided on this board I think that this is what probably happened. Also, if this agreement was approved in open court, it will now stand, because you signed off on it.

That's all great advice, however unfortunately it may be too late for him. It appears that agreements were already made in the courtroom and approved by the judge. I kept meaning to say something about that before and kept forgetting to do so.

 

[bulldogg70]

I agree, and that is why I stated that in the last paragraph. I hate situations like this. If everything this person has said is correct I strongly think this is ethically nasty and wrong. However, in the rules it is not. This is why I just do not like attorneys in family matters, although at times they are needed. I honestly have seen more damage by attorney destroying the other respective party then doing what is right. The attorney's know each party is mad at each other and instead of telling their client,"hey I know you are mad, but let's not go after them and prepare for your future." I feel many problems would be reduced. Many people have decent assets when the prepare for divorce then the attorney fee's devour each others assets and both parties walk away bitter and the attorney has a meal for another day.... just sad, this hits my nerve.